The Nature of Spirits

10 posts / 0 new
Last post
Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
The Nature of Spirits

Something's got me thinking about spirits and how they were sort of glossed over in Planescape.

For the most part back in 2e, they just seem to be another sort of monster. Granted some of the monsters described as spirits are creatures with an intrinsic connection to a plane, and possible explanations for spells like Speak with Rocks and so on.

In 3e they evolved the concept of spirit a little more. They not only had a bunch of the explanations in 2e, but they released a few Shaman classes and started implying the Druid talked to similar things. Said that many spirits were in fact Rank 0 Deities that were numerous, and introduced the alternate cosmology plane the Spirit World. I know that generally the idea of alternate cosmology planes are heresy here (like the Shadow Plane being a full plane), but I felt it was an Spirit World brought an important dimension on the way things were.

4e went further with the primal power source, and they've elaborated a bit more in primal power describing some well-known spirits like the Primal Beast, World Serpent and World Tree. They describe the Spirit World as an unseen part of the world, sort of a state of being that only those in the right state of mind can perceive it.

The problem with those explanations of the Spirit World is that I feel they are too prime centric. I wrote some thoughts on this when I described the primal power source in Planescape. For one thing I feel that every plane has it's own versions of spirits, some are very much like the primal spirits of the material plane. Other spirits are in fact the Powers, and things like celestials and fiends. Though the later two less so, since they've become more like beings in having generally corporeal and fixed forms.

So my idea is that the Spirit World and Spiritual Reality is a state of being that exists in every plane. The interactions between spirit and physical reality vary on each plane. Again there's a case of most mortals not being able to perceive spirits, even the most canny planewalker unless they happen to be of a class (or know the right spell/ritual) that does such things. But the difference is that many spirits on the planes do make themselves seen and known far more than the spirits of the prime.

I actually liked the concept of Levels of Reality that was discussed in the module Doors to the Unknown and the sourcebook Ravenloft: the Nightmare Lands. I would put spiritual reality on the 4th level, even if there might be some issues reconciling hyper reality with spiritual reality.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: The Nature of Spirits

Did you ever see the Shaman book for 2nd edition? It went into great detail about what a spirit was; On Hallowed Ground seemed to reference it (it didn't explicitly, but that book's discussions about the origins of certain pantheons was very compatible with it). It's fairly close to the 4th edition definition.

Basically, according to Shaman, the Spirit World doesn't exist. Spirits are made from powerful emotions and beliefs, and they may seem to appear or disappear, but there's no actual other plane or level of reality that they're going to. They are simply manifested or they're not. The spirits and shamans, however, all believe it exists.

The history of the Shaman book is interesting. It was originally developed by Mayfair Games as part of their RoleAids line of AD&D-compatible products. After TSR sued that line out of existence, it was one of two unpublished RoleAids products (the other was Chronomancer) that TSR decided to rewrite and release itself.

Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
Re: The Nature of Spirits

ripvanwormer wrote:
The history of the Shaman book is interesting. It was originally developed by Mayfair Games as part of their RoleAids line of AD&D-compatible products. After TSR sued that line out of existence, it was one of two unpublished RoleAids products (the other was Chronomancer) that TSR decided to rewrite and release itself.
That's probably why I never heard of that splatbook, though I remember there being other splatbooks on classes that weren't in the 2e PHB.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: The Nature of Spirits

Yeah, it wasn't part of the main class splatbook series like The Complete Fighter's Handbook, Complete Druid's Handbook, Complete Ninja's Handbook, Complete Barbarian's Handbook, etc. Instead, it was part of a separate series that began with Chronomancer, a black book with a painted illustration on the cover instead of the faux-leatherette covers the Complete series had.

It looked like this.

The book includes statistics for a variety of interesting spirits, adventure ideas, and much more. It wasn't a collection of kits like the splatbooks were. It defined what spirits were in 2nd edition and, arguably, still today.

There was also a shaman class in Spells & Magic, part of the Player's Option series of supplemental 2nd edition books, somewhat different from the one in the Shaman book.

Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
Re: The Nature of Spirits

Out of the different significant spirits I can think of on the planes, well you could probably say that the "World Tree" is pretty well just Yggdrasil. Noctus the moon and Selera the sun of the Beastlands certainly fit in the description of spirits. Nimicri though it's described as being a massive Mimic just might be one.

Depending on how you define planar sentience, I think that might add to some of the significant spirits across the planes. Certainly the Abyss itself show signs of sentience, even though I'd say all the other planes are sentient in some way.

taotad's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-11
Re: The Nature of Spirits

ripvanwormer wrote:
Did you ever see the Shaman book for 2nd edition? It went into great detail about what a spirit was
I loved that book, even though we had some problems integrating the rules into planescape. One of the more elegant and philosophical books in 2nd edition.

The chronomancer one was a little bit ... shall we say advanced advanced 2nd edition?

Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
Re: The Nature of Spirits

Chronomancer if I remember that book was a quite a bit too difficult to integrate in most campaigns.

I think it's strange that in 3e they couldn't make up their minds on what a Shaman was, as there were 3 classes, even though I wouldn't count the Dragon Shaman one as really being one of them.

I do seem to remember that in some 2e products like Monster Mythology, they treated Shaman like they were minor spellcasters with spells to a limited level and minor access to spheres. I guess those one were never meant to be PCs though. And those ones weren't adepts of the spirits, but just another type of divine spellcaster.

Jack of tears's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-12-13
Re: The Nature of Spirits

>>I do seem to remember that in some 2e products like Monster Mythology, they treated Shaman like they were minor spellcasters with spells to a limited level and minor access to spheres. I guess those one were never meant to be PCs though. And those ones weren't adepts of the spirits, but just another type of divine spellcaster<<

I don't recall MM having a Shaman class, but Humanoid Handbook did and the class was a bit too weak for pcs, though those kits and classes were meant for humanoid player characters. (as I recall almost all the class/kits were underpowered in that book, as if they were punishing pcs for playing humanoids, which already had power checks included .... otherwise great book, though) After a little tweaking I played a great kobold shaman using those rules, more or less.

Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
Re: The Nature of Spirits

Jack of tears wrote:
I don't recall MM having a Shaman class, but Humanoid Handbook did and the class was a bit too weak for pcs, though those kits and classes were meant for humanoid player characters. (as I recall almost all the class/kits were underpowered in that book, as if they were punishing pcs for playing humanoids, which already had power checks included .... otherwise great book, though) After a little tweaking I played a great kobold shaman using those rules, more or less.
The Humanoid Handbook had ridiculously low racial level limits for a bunch of the races, and it wasn't even for the powerful ones. Well actually I think it was every race had unlimited advancement as a fighter, but every other class had a limit. Racial level limits, certainly go down as one of my most despised things about 2e rules. One of those arbitrary rule restrictions based on arbitrary flavour.

I'd much rather deal with ECL and Level Adjustments which were problematic mechanics in 3e, but certainly better than what they had in 2e.

But back to Shamans, I think back then their idea of a Shaman in the Humanoid Handbook book was "Priest-Lite" rather anything that dealt with the spirit world. I think that Monster Mythology had the Shaman info because it was supposed to be like a companion to the Humanoid Handbook.

4e Shamans are pretty much the 3e Spirit Shaman, even though some see it as "taking animal companion away from the Druid and making it a full class, when they made the primal power source". I always felt the Spirit Shaman was one of the more interesting expanded classes of 3e along with the Warlock and Marshall (look where those 2 classes ended up).

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: The Nature of Spirits

Yeah, most 2e sources used "shaman" to mean "primitive priest," as 1e and OD&D had.

The spirit shaman did exist in 2e, described in the Shaman sourcebook and made "core" in Spells & Magic, but those were completely different from the cleric-light monstrous classes (which became the adept NPC class in 3e, more or less).

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.