Zeus vs. Daghdha

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Palomides's picture
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Zeus vs. Daghdha

I was reading "On Hallowed Ground" and I came across a line that surprised me. It read
"...Zeus and the Daghdha [respective leaders of the Greeks and the Celts] can't abide each other, and they've set thier agents and avatars to sabotaging the other."

This surprised me as I never heard of a conflict before. I then jumped to the entry on the Daghfha and read
"...the Daghdha's most fervent friends are the trickster gods....Likewise, his enemies are those who don't have the imagination or the humor to understand his jokes, like ... Zeus of the Greeks"

Then under Zeus I read
"...the Daghdha doesn't think the Olympians are any match for his own crew, and besides, he thinks the Greeks are too full of themselves...Their simmering fued may erupt into all-out war at some point."

Am I just being clueless or did this just come out of left-field? They are both CG deities (albeit one is more neutral in his CG-ness). They are also the heads of their pantheons. One is a sky god who controls storms, one rules over weather and crops. They seem pretty similar (or is that supposed to be the problem?)
Has anyone else depicted Zeus as not having a pranster side? (I'll concede that he probably doesn't like pranks where he is the target)
Is this supposed to reflect the conflict when the Roman army (with Greco-Roman gods) invaded the British Isles?
Has anyone done anything with this conflict? How do people see this playing out?

I know this is open-ended but I don't recall this being referenced anywhere else, so it has set my mind spinning down a variety of different avenues

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

I think it's meant to be a divine reflection of the conflict between the Romans and the Celts (not just the British ones), yes. Although it's also just the idea that there can only be one "alpha male" in the room. Their similarities would make them more likely to be rivals, I think. Zeus and Odin probably get along better, since their spheres of influence aren't the same and their respective worshipers are far apart on most worlds (though vikings have a tendency to travel far from their homes).

I don't see Zeus as much of a trickster god, although someone caught in a sudden downpour might disagree. His tendency to shapeshift and get sex under false pretenses is somewhat pranksterish, but he isn't generally known for subtlety. Quite the opposite: he tends to be drawn more toward displays of open force. He's powerful enough that he doesn't need to trick. He's exactly the type of powerful sky god that Anansi is always pulling pranks on.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Following the historical logic, then the Celtic gods should be at odds with the Norse gods too since the Vikings colonized a lot of the same territory at a later point in time.

Perhaps I equated the "chaotic" aspects of the Greek gods as somewhat jovial (no pun intended) and pransterish. Admittedly, I don't see Zeus pulling off the clever subtlety of one of Hermes' set-ups; but I always pictured Zeus as being laughing and boisterous
[Although that may just be my personal interpretation influenced by cartoons, etc.]

Still, this whole idea is new to me. It seems like it has some potential (since I know Greek and Celtic mythologies fairly well) but I only every thought of conflict amongst the good gods being more on the law vs. chaos side of things (also a good use of prankster gods).

Are there any other "non-obvious" conflicts amongst the pantheons I should know about? E.g. Egyptian vs. Forgotten Realms, Isis vs. Hera (man, those Romans were everywhere), etc.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

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Following the historical logic, then the Celtic gods should be at odds with the Norse gods too since the Vikings colonized a lot of the same territory at a later point in time.

Not while the Celtic gods were being worshiped there, though, except on worlds like Gary Gygax's Epic of Ærth campaign, where the British Isles never stopped worshiping the gods of the Celts. And of course here we get into the iffy (for these forums) question of whether Christianity exists anywhere in the Planescape multiverse. If it does, I think the Celts and the Norse would see it as a common foe, rather than one another. Ærth (a world Gygax invented after he left TSR) is a sort of parallel Earth where fabled lands like Atlantis, Ys, Lemuria, and Lyonesse never sank beneath the ocean, and Christianity never took hold. It advanced to something like the early Renaissance technologically and stopped there, but it has magic and many portals to the world of Faerie. If that world had an equivalent of the Hundred Years War between France and England, the Roman and Celtic pantheons would have again been in conflict, as Ærth's equivalent of England somehow managed to continue worshiping the Celtic faith.

There aren't many examples in D&D of prime worlds where the historical Earth pantheons are worshiped. The "Historical Reference" series for 2nd edition assumed a more or less historical world, so Christianity did exist, or would eventually come to exist. It's usually assumed each pantheon gets a world all to itself, which would minimize interpantheonic conflicts. Apart from that, all I can think of are the smattering of Earthly deities revered on Toril, and the world of Thesalys in the sphere of Greatspace, where the Greek pantheon is worshiped. More worlds like Ærth are needed to help justify conflicts between pantheons.

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I always pictured Zeus as being laughing and boisterous

Oh, he probably is. It's good to be king. I don't think that's the same as being a trickster, though. Note that On Hallowed Ground gives him a pure neutral alignment, rather than any sort of chaotic.

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Are there any other "non-obvious" conflicts amongst the pantheons I should know about? E.g. Egyptian vs. Forgotten Realms, Isis vs. Hera (man, those Romans were everywhere), etc.

The Sumerian and Babylonian pantheons don't get along, especially since Nergal and Anshar slew Enki. I suspect the Babylonian and Egyptian pantheons are both still mad at the orc gods, who slew many of their avatars during the Orcgate Wars of Toril. I don't think the Faerunian pantheon is unified enough to share any group blame for the conflicts between their gods and the Egyptian gods of Mulhorand.

The Egyptian and Greek pantheons are an interesting possibility. I'm not aware of anything about it in canon, and historically I don't think they actually conflicted that much; there was a lot of syncretism between them, and Isis became really popular in Rome. But there was syncretism between the Roman and Celtic gods, too.

The Finnish god Ukko is said to be rapidly losing followers to the Slavic gods Dazhbog and Perun in Eastern Europe (Dragon #290).

Set married two members of the Canaanite pantheon, according to Wikipedia, and that might have caused all sorts of political trouble.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Palomides wrote:
Following the historical logic, then the Celtic gods should be at odds with the Norse gods too since the Vikings colonized a lot of the same territory at a later point in time.

This may be a bit of a silly reference, but I'll share it nonetheless. As a kid I was an avid reader of all things Viking (as you may have surmised from my moniker) including the Thor comic book. There was one issue in particular where Thor, while attempting to travel from Asgard to Earth, is caught in a dimensional vortex (planar travel was destabilized at the time due to the Egyptian god Set attempting to start a "Gods-War") and instead ends up in Avalon - home of the Celt deities.

The Celts display an instant hatred for him, and he is attacked by Leir - a deity of Lighting and Spears. Thor and Leir trade blows for a bit (Thunder vs. Lightning) but during their fight a host of Set's troops come through the same portal and begin slaughtering the Celts. Thor and Leir put their differences aside momentarily to combat this mutual threat - but it is an uneasy alliance at best.

So while this isn't canon by any means, it seems at least one other IP (Marvel Comics) assumes that Norse raids on Celt territory has spilled over into a hatred between the two pantheons.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

I don't think its too silly. Given that this is a game, why not grab from any source that sparks your imagination.

I've taken a lot of wild ideas from comics
This is probably before your time but one of my favorite runs of Thor was one where Loki had somehow managed to curse Thor into the form of a frog. They actually had giant frog in viking helmet and armor wielding an enchanted hammer. I don't now how I would incorporate this (god needs help gettng free from a cursed form; bullywug god of lightning?) but it was one of the things that got me researching the various mythologies

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Buddhism and Shintoism were engaged in a theological tiff for several centuries, where each religion admitted the existence of the others' deities but regarded them as emanations or auras of their own deities. The Buddhists said that the Shinto deities were aspects of Buddhas, like Gautama Buddha, Maitreya, and Kuan Yin, which manifested as the local nature spirits and greater kami of Shinto to fulfill the boddhisattva mission of preaching the dharma (in this case, to the Japanese). Shinto, to a lesser degree (its intellectual tradition was much smaller), also attempted to place the Buddhas under the aegis of the Eight Million Gods; Hotei is the Laughing Buddha whose belly you rub.

This theological back-and-forth could easily be one aspect of an ongoing "cold war" between the Buddhist and Shinto deities. If a sufficiently widespread belief takes hold in enough lands where the two religions' followers interact (any Asian-themed setting, of course), a god of one pantheon might find itself forced to defect to the other, or suffer as their followers' new form of worship stops supporting them, with each pantheon having the ultimate goal of completely subsuming the other. This would rarely come to outright combat, though a "losing" god might choose an honorable death over expatriation, or attack a newly-generated deity sucking his worship across the line.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Following the historical logic, then the Celtic gods should be at odds with the Norse gods too since the Vikings colonized a lot of the same territory at a later point in time.
Don't forget what the Saxons did to the Celts.

but I always pictured Zeus as being laughing and boisterous
Sometimes he is (e.g. the case where he stupidly threw off his mortal disguise and was all "It's me, Zeus!" before his mistress, whereupon she was struck by lightning emanating from his body) and sometimes he's a complete ass (see the whole fit over Prometheus giving humans intelligence and fire, and Zeus punishing the humans by sending them the first woman, Pandora *you have to read that part of the Hesiod to understand why giving men the first woman was an asstastic thing to do-- yeah, that work depicts women as being quite evil.*. Besides that, the humans didn't do anything wrong; Zeus basically unloaded some wrath upon the humans for what Prometheus did.)
As bad as Zeus is however, Hera is far worse. She's essentially the Greco-Roman pantheon equivalent of caricaturized Hillary Clinton, I kid you not. (for those too lazy to read, she has a very "evil stepmother" thing going on with Artemis, she refused to have sex with Zeus for a full year out of rage when Athena was born, and she's constantly torturing and killing Zeus's mistresses. In one instance, she even friggin' gets revenge on the mistress by killing her children instead of tormenting her!)
Also, let's not forget that not all of the ladies that Zeus and Dionysus chased after were receptive to their advances.
BTW, Aphrodite is pretty screwed up, too (read the story about Adonis for details; creepy as hell. It also puts an amusing spin on the disney cartoon series about Hercules, LOL.)

Are there any other "non-obvious" conflicts amongst the pantheons I should know about? E.g. Egyptian vs. Forgotten Realms, Isis vs. Hera (man, those Romans were everywhere), etc.
Don't forget Forgotten Realms vs. Maztica.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Jem wrote:
Buddhism and Shintoism were engaged in a theological tiff for several centuries, where each religion admitted the existence of the others' deities but regarded them as emanations or auras of their own deities. The Buddhists said that the Shinto deities were aspects of Buddhas, like Gautama Buddha, Maitreya, and Kuan Yin, which manifested as the local nature spirits and greater kami of Shinto to fulfill the boddhisattva mission of preaching the dharma (in this case, to the Japanese). Shinto, to a lesser degree (its intellectual tradition was much smaller), also attempted to place the Buddhas under the aegis of the Eight Million Gods; Hotei is the Laughing Buddha whose belly you rub.
Along similar lines, Buddism and Hinduism traditionally did not get along. Buddism was originally a giant 'take that' at the whole caste system, where lower castes would have to wait until they reincarnated into higher caste to achieve moksha (enlightenment). Anyone to escape samsara through moksha by following Buddha. Hinduism, for their part, responded by declaring that Buddha was the Eleventh Avataras of Visnu, who had become incarnate on earth to trick demons into following a false religion, trapping them in samsara forever. Thankfully, time has mostly healed those wounds, it ran deep for a long time. It makes me wonder at the implications of Demeter/Isis and Odin/Hermes/Thoth being so closely associated in mystery cults. What would happen if they hit a critical mass of followers that believed they were the same being? Could the Greek Fates/ The Furies/ The Norns be all the same too?

Also, if anyone's interested, I've had the Norse and Eygptian basically headhunting Kyuss in my own campaigns. He's been trying to twist the knowledge of Mimir and the Norns to steal divine power from Odin and Hel, and he keeps trying to mess with Osiris.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Sometimes he is (e.g. the case where he stupidly threw off his mortal disguise and was all "It's me, Zeus!" before his mistress, whereupon she was struck by lightning emanating from his body)

Are you talking about Semele? That's the only occasion I can think of where Zeus killed a consort by revealing his true form. But in the version of the myth I read, Semele agreed to swallow the heart of Zagreus, Zeus's titan-slain son, in order to bear him to term, and he took her as a consort. But Hera was especially angered about this consort relationship because Zagreus was originally conceived from Zeus sleeping with Persephone. In the heat of passion, Zeus had sworn to give Semele anything she wished. And Hera in disguise had told Semele he was Zeus and convinced her to ask Zeus to reveal himself in all his glory and prove it. And since a god can't break their oath, he did so, and Semele was killed as you described. (Then Zeus took the heart back from the remains, stitched it into his thigh, and eventually his child was reborn as Dionysus.) It wasn't Zeus playing some kind of prank on Semele at all, and he didn't even want to do it, he was forced into it.

(Honestly, the more I read about Greek mythology, the more I really question the pantheon being described as CG)

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Also, let's not forget that not all of the ladies that Zeus and Dionysus chased after were receptive to their advances.

Not just them. Even Hephaestus tried to force himself on Athena and ended up accidentally conceiving Erichthonius with Gaia in the process.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Dagon wrote:
It makes me wonder at the implications of Demeter/Isis and Odin/Hermes/Thoth being so closely associated in mystery cults. What would happen if they hit a critical mass of followers that believed they were the same being? Could the Greek Fates/ The Furies/ The Norns be all the same too?

In such a case, I think that one of those gods would absorb the others. The Furies are different beings entirely, but if enough worshipers began to view the Norns as just incarnations of the Fates, the Norns would be weakened (since a worshiper who thinks they're "actually" the Fates is sending worship to the Fates). Eventually the Norns would fall into the Astral, or be absorbed by the Fates to become part of their identities (possibly a preferable outcome!).

I view this, when undertaken deliberately by a god's propaganda machine, as one of the most common forms of deific warfare. A god needs its people to not only believe it exists but adhere to a certain overall worldview, which is why they promote alignments. Rival gods with similar portfolios but different views on the world take worship that could be sustaining them, and pose the threat of the kind of creeping absorption problem described above. Of course, gods also believe that their worldview is right, so with all the best intentions you get cold wars of slow knives, which sometimes turn hot.

In the example of the Fates and the Norns, there's no particular animosity between the two pantheons or between the two groups of goddesses in particular. However, both have a vision of the world as proper.

The Fates, assuming they generally agree with Greek ideas of the ideal Republic, are going to be big on philosopher-kings, direct rule by the demos, and bearded toga-wearing mathematicians and engineers, and they will weave lives with the goal of seeing that such a world comes about. Such a world will be fairly peaceful; warfare is part of life, but ideal men are reasoners and thinkers, and leaders have the responsibility of seeing to the productivity of the state.

The Norns, assuming they generally agree with the Norse ideas of the ideal life, are going to be big on rugged self-reliance, the warrior ethic, and prowess in battle, and they will weave lives with the goal of seeing that such a world comes about. Such a world will be fairly riotous; war is the proper pursuit of life in a tough universe, and the ideal man is the successful warrior. Leaders have the responsibility of protecting and inspiring their people.

So it would be easy for perfectly friendly nations, one under the Greek pantheon and another under the Norse, to face the same external threat and seek to respond in completely different ways. The Greeks might investigate to seek the intelligence that will give them the upper hand, and regard the bellicose Norse as exacerbating the situation. Meanwhile the Norse are preparing for war, and regard the Greeks as failing to pull their weight in the face of danger. Both regard their methods as the only rational or even the only possible response, and the Fates or Norns as responsible for arranging the situation in accordance with their divine mandate. Whose approach wins out will probably strengthen that pantheon incrementally at the expense of the other. Say it happens a lot -- for instance, the war usually happens, just like the Norse expected, and the two nations win, although not as well as they might if the Greeks hadn't pissed around. Then eventually the people might be pretty reasonable in figuring that it's the Norns whose weaving is running the world.

(One last note: you know all those heroes who bemoan the interest the Fates or the Norns are taking in them? Imagine being some poor schmuck they're both trying to weave in...)

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Also, if anyone's interested, I've had the Norse and Eygptian basically headhunting Kyuss in my own campaigns.
I doubt beheading Kyuss would do them any good. He'd just regrow a body of undead, prehensile, interwoven, ambulatory worms. That said, I think Anubis and Kelemvor would be particularly opposed to Kyuss.

Are you talking about Semele? That's the only occasion I can think of where Zeus killed a consort by revealing his true form. But in the version of the myth I read, Semele agreed to swallow the heart of Zagreus, Zeus's titan-slain son, in order to bear him to term, and he took her as a consort.
Never heard that before. In the version I read, the consort died, but had conceived, and Zeus saved the zygote by attaching it to his leg and bringing it to term. Can't remember if it was Semele or not (probably was, though). And yeah, Hera wanted that boy dead, at any rate.

And Hera in disguise had told Semele he was Zeus and convinced her to ask Zeus to reveal himself in all his glory and prove it. And since a god can't break their oath, he did so, and Semele was killed as you described.
Eh, the version I read (one of the versions on Theoi.com, anyway), Zeus basically revealed himself (just couldn't resist doing so) in ignorance and she was struck by lightning, and he felt really horrible about her death. In that version however, he actually attached the zygote (it sure as hell wasn't a fetus) to his leg and brought it to term. In his defense, this was supposed to be one of his first dalliances with a mortal female. In at least one of the sources, it sounded as though Zeus's true form WAS lightning, so I'm thinking that particular version was much older than most. As for his reason behind the disguise in that version, my understanding was that it was to avoid the pitfalls of celebrity in order to mingle with the mortals a bit.

Not just them. Even Hephaestus tried to force himself on Athena and ended up accidentally conceiving Erichthonius with Gaia in the process.
Yeah, but it's not QUITE the same thing since the marriage was arranged by Zeus, and back then it wasn't considered rape if you were married to the woman.

The Norse pantheon has its own alignment problems. I mean, look at what Thor did to Loki over the death of Baldur. While most versions you read are somewhat sanitized and just say "ropes" or "chains", in the older/original versions...
Thor punished Loki by turning one of his sons into a wolf. That son killed the other son. Then, Thor ripped out the intestines of the (now slain) non-polymorphed son, and placed a spell on them to make them as tough as iron. He used the intestines to bind Loki to the rock under the Midgard serpent's mouth until Ragnarok. Talk about evil. Hell, that's not just evil, that's VILE.
Then of course there's the time that Loki was kidnapped by that one frost giant. Thor got revenge not only by killing said frost giant, but he also slew his daughters, and every Frost Giant man, woman, or youth he encountered. Who of course had absolutely nothing to do with Loki's kidnapping.

Plus prettymuch every single religion from the BC's era has the gods of sun/sky/righteousness punishing evildoers by subjecting their offspring-- even babies-- to painful deaths.

As far as the Olympians however, I would say that Hera by far is the 2nd most evil of them (behind only friggin' Ares)

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Are you talking about Semele? That's the only occasion I can think of where Zeus killed a consort by revealing his true form. But in the version of the myth I read, Semele agreed to swallow the heart of Zagreus, Zeus's titan-slain son, in order to bear him to term, and he took her as a consort. Never heard that before. In the version I read, the consort died, but had conceived, and Zeus saved the zygote by attaching it to his leg and bringing it to term. Can't remember if it was Semele or not (probably was, though). And yeah, Hera wanted that boy dead, at any rate.

The Zagreus version is part of the Orphic mysteries.

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Eh, the version I read (one of the versions on Theoi.com, anyway), Zeus basically revealed himself (just couldn't resist doing so) in ignorance and she was struck by lightning, and he felt really horrible about her death.

Huh. I'd always heard the version where Semele begs Zeus to see his true form, and he doesn't want to, but he promised her anything and he can't back out of his promise. And of course Hera inspired her to make that request.

Legends & Lore for AD&D follows that version, basically, saying "in his true form he is a ball of fiery light so intense that no man can look upon him without bursting into flames."

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As far as the Olympians however, I would say that Hera by far is the 2nd most evil of them (behind only friggin' Ares)

Possibly, but I don't think we're well served thinking of Hera, or even Ares, as a cackling villain. They're emotional, tempestuous, violent, jealous, and petty, but they're also the personification of all that is good (in the sense of beneficial, rather than moral) in the universe. Hera is the queen of heaven and goddess of marriage, a personification of nature and human culture. She's needed by the Greeks. The cooling gales they power alone inspires, which nourish life, which every life desires. Mother of showers and winds, from thee alone, producing all things, mortal life is known : all natures share thy temperament divine, and universal sway alone is thine, with sounding blasts of wind, the swelling sea and rolling rivers roar when shook by thee. Come, blessed Goddess, famed almighty queen, with aspect kind, rejoicing and serene. You can't really judge her any more than you can judge the wind or the stars. And her sins are all reactive; she acts in a reprehensible way not because she desires to spread misery or woe, but because her husband violates the sacred bond that she personifies, that makes her what she is. It's like asking a fire elemental to stop burning things, or a water elemental to stop getting things wet. And you can't really judge him, either; he's a fertility god, and he acts according to his nature. Neither of them really have free will. They are what they were made to be.

The Greek pantheon isn't really chaotic good, though. They dwell on Arborea simply because they like it there, and gods can live wherever they want. It's an emotional plane where passions run high, and that fits them.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Jem wrote:
Dagon wrote:
Could the Greek Fates/ The Furies/ The Norns be all the same too?

If enough worshipers began to view the Norns as just incarnations of the Fates, the Norns would be weakened (since a worshiper who thinks they're "actually" the Fates is sending worship to the Fates). Eventually the Norns would fall into the Astral, or be absorbed by the Fates to become part of their identities (possibly a preferable outcome!).

The Fates ... are going to be big on philosopher-kings, direct rule by the demos, and bearded toga-wearing mathematicians and engineers, and they will weave lives with the goal of seeing that such a world comes about. Such a world will be fairly peaceful; warfare is part of life, but ideal men are reasoners and thinkers, and leaders have the responsibility of seeing to the productivity of the state.

The Norns ... are going to be big on rugged self-reliance, the warrior ethic, and prowess in battle, and they will weave lives with the goal of seeing that such a world comes about. Such a world will be fairly riotous; war is the proper pursuit of life in a tough universe, and the ideal man is the successful warrior. Leaders have the responsibility of protecting and inspiring their people.

I actually took this from the opposite direction. I viewed all the gods as splintering off of a general concept. Taking my lead from the way the Sumerian and Babylonian gods started as one and then splintered (as described in "On Hallowed Ground")
For example, there has always been death. When people only had the most primitive understandings of the afterlife, there was a "proto-"Grey Wastes, if you will, presided over by a force known as DEATH. However as civilizations grew and different groups of people began to view and interpret death in different ways, the (usually) anthropomorphic entities of the underworld (Hades, Hel, Arawn, etc.) came into being and the Grey Wastes splintered into its layers and domains.
I see all of these gods of death being avatars of sorts for the greater disembodied force that is known as DEATH. They can't forgo their roles (i.e. go against the rule) set down by DEATH; but other than that , they can be influenced and shaped by the socieites that worship them.

The gods of a certain portfolio might fight to gain more worshippers or power, or to determine which concept is stronger. Or they might accept that they all serve the same function and shrug off their differences (I see the gods of death largely falling into this category).

The way I see it, there is some triumvirate force for FATE. The Greeks call them the Fates, the Norse the Norns, etc. But whatever they are, they lay down the inescapable timelines for mortals and gods.
Now since mortals don't worship the Fates (since the three weavers are bound to weave out what must be, regardless of the pleas of mortals or gods), they didn't really separate into unique individuals (at least not in my campaign). Sure a Roman supplicant will see the three spinners in togas and a Norse supplicant will see them in warmer gear (and maybe a drow petitioner would see three spiders weaving the threads) but there was never enough worship to really splinter them off into separate entities. There is only enough belief in them to color the way one looks at them.

Jem wrote:
Imagine being some poor schmuck they [the Fates and the Norns] are both trying to weave in...
This is the only thing that makes me question my take on things. If the gods of two or more pantheons were trying to steer a PC down differing paths in order to rectify the fate of that pantheon, imagine the strain the PC would have to go through.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Your description doesn't fit Hera. She didn't commit those heinous acts in a fit of rage; her acts of revenge were cold and calculated, and often occured some time after initially discovering of Zeus's infidelity. In addition, as I mentioned before, she often victimizes innocent third parties of these affairs-- the children borne of these unions. As an "evil stepmother", she constantly, out of jealousy, abuses Artemis physically and emotionally, and manipulates her constantly for the purpose of hurting Zeus, all because she is the daughter of Leto, whom Zeus shacked up with before he even married Hera. She murders Lamia's children simply because they are the offspring of an affair between her and Zeus, and she wants Lamia to suffer in the worst way possible. No amount of good deeds can make up for **** like that.
Unfortunately, prettymuch all the gods of the BC era were like that simply because the savages of that day and age viewed it as perfectly acceptable to slaughter entire families *including the babies* for the crimes of a single family member (as did the savages of the middle ages, and even some of the savages of the colonial era, such as the settler savages of Californio and California who would slaughter entire villages full of Pueblo men, women, and children simply because they rightfully killed 2 settler raiders *criminal combatants* who habitually raided their villages for slaves.) Oh, and don't even get me started on blood feuds, where in many societies it was socially acceptable to rape the sister of the man who raped your sister. Among other things (blood feuds are absolutely vile)
Eh, sorry about the rant, but I think you get my point. (That said, as a Christian, I also have trouble with the idea of the 10 plagues of Egypt-- that seems pretty evil to me, considering that the Egyptian peasantry were victims of the Pharoah as well.)

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Hyena of Ice wrote:
In that version however, he actually attached the zygote (it sure as hell wasn't a fetus) to his leg and brought it to term.

Oh, not a zygote or fetus in the one I read; literally Zagreus's heart still.

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Yeah, but it's not QUITE the same thing since the marriage was arranged by Zeus, and back then it wasn't considered rape if you were married to the woman.

Are you sure about that? I've never heard of Hephaestus being married to Athena, only Aphrodite, with her cheating on him with Ares on the side. Remember the whole thing about Hephaestus trapping Aphrodite and Ares in his own bed to humiliate both of them during one of their dalliances?

Quote:
As far as the Olympians however, I would say that Hera by far is the 2nd most evil of them (behind only friggin' Ares)

I dunno, Athena could be pretty cold. The Arachne incident alone is a good example. Yes, Arachne was being all filled with hubris in saying she was better than Athena, but she was right, even Athena grudgingly admitted it. And she wasn't claiming it to shame Athena; when she did that final weave that got her punished, she wanted Athena to be proud of her, since Athena'd always claimed that to improve your skills was the ultimate good. But nope, she couldn't have that, so SPIDER'D.

But even worse than that, look at Troy; it was the city that held her Palladium, the city she had promised to always protect so long as it was held within its walls. So what does she do? She gets so spiteful towards the Trojans after the whole "who's the fairest" incident - something that really shouldn't even matter to her considering she'd never really cared about personal beauty anyway, she saw it as too feminine a concern to worry about; she just couldn't stand the insult - that she tells some of its heroes "oh, you don't need to worry, you are under my protection remember :)", appears to the Greeks and powers them up in order to let them slaughter Trojans better, and even helps Odysseus and Diomedes to sneak into Troy and steal the Palladium just so that she isn't breaking her own word. Then she manages to talk Zeus into getting so fed up over the whole thing that he essentially withdraws his own support of Troy, just to make sure as many Trojans as possible can be slaughtered.

When Aphrodite appeared during the war to try and protect Aeneas, her son, from being killed in battle by Diomedes, Athena powered Diomedes up enough to stab her and actually wound her, to get her to abandon him and try to escape. Then when Zeus pulled her back to Olympus, she and Hera mocked her to tears by claiming she couldn't have been wounded in battle, she must have been sneaking around the Trojans looking for some men to lay with, and pricked herself on a sewing pin.

Hera might be conniving, and Ares might be wrathful and blood-crazy, but Athena is petty and calculating.

Still, even though they've all done some pretty awful things (except maybe Hermes?), I honestly wouldn't call all of them evil. I'd say neutral, in the sense that they can act in either way. Old goofy 2e-style CN, I suppose, as annoying as it was. Ares is awful, and Hera I can't really think of any occasions where she acted well (though I can think of many of the things she did as being entirely defensible, if you consider just how awful Zeus was to her as a husband, and the perspective the gods had as a whole that mortals didn't really matter that much), but most of them could commit merciful acts as easily as wrathful ones.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

I read on in "On Hallowed Ground" and started thinking about another twist with the Celtic pantheon. in Celtic lore, there is a lot of mythic-psuedo-history concerning the Celts battles with the giants.

What if this is reflected by or a reflection of the Celtic gods taking the portfolios FROM the giants? The giants already have ties to natural phenomenon (hills, stone, fire, ice, storms). What if they were once a formerly neutral, druidic-type pantheon for an (Eberron-like) race of giants?
Who built the menhirs (e.g. Stonehenge)? The giants.

Then the Celtic gods (and the Vanir of the Norse) came in and took it away from them. Perhaps the more peaceful giant gods (and underling giants) were the first to fall. Maybe there were once a species of "tree giants" or "lake giants". The giants (and giant gods) gods that survived where the stronger, more durable elements of nature. They became bitter and vowed to take down the two invading panethons for what they had done.

Any complications I'm overlooking? The only one I can think of is that it paints the human pantheons as more ruthless than they are usually depicted (especially the Vanir) but maybe they only mellowed after they settled into their new roles.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Palomides wrote:
I read on in "On Hallowed Ground" and started thinking about another twist with the Celtic pantheon. in Celtic lore, there is a lot of mythic-psuedo-history concerning the Celts battles with the giants.

What if this is reflected by or a reflection of the Celtic gods taking the portfolios FROM the giants? The giants already have ties to natural phenomenon (hills, stone, fire, ice, storms). What if they were once a formerly neutral, druidic-type pantheon for an (Eberron-like) race of giants?
Who built the menhirs (e.g. Stonehenge)? The giants.

Then the Celtic gods (and the Vanir of the Norse) came in and took it away from them. Perhaps the more peaceful giant gods (and underling giants) were the first to fall. Maybe there were once a species of "tree giants" or "lake giants". The giants (and giant gods) gods that survived where the stronger, more durable elements of nature. They became bitter and vowed to take down the two invading panethons for what they had done.

Any complications I'm overlooking? The only one I can think of is that it paints the human pantheons as more ruthless than they are usually depicted (especially the Vanir) but maybe they only mellowed after they settled into their new roles.

You know, I've thought on that too, and I think there really is a lot of potential there. Remember that it's not just the Celts and Vanir either (but don't forget that the Aesir and the Vanir both hate the giants); the Seldarine kicked the giant deities out of Arborea way back when and took their realms for their own, before Lolth had left the pantheon even. And with how many titanspawn are giant-kin, and with the similarities between giants and titans as it is, I can easily imagine the Greeks not caring much for them too.

There's a lot of stuff you could do with that; it really is pretty unfair to such a (for the most part) peaceful pantheon that pretty much everyone in the CG region of the ring seems to dislike or even hate them to the point of stealing their ancestral land, and it'd be a really interesting thing to do with a pantheon that's never had as much influence in story stuff as its size should have given it. It'd be one of the few times you could paint the "good guys" as villains legitimately, and honestly that's always an interesting way to go to me. Laughing out loud

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Are you sure about that? I've never heard of Hephaestus being married to Athena, only Aphrodite, with her cheating on him with Ares on the side. Remember the whole thing about Hephaestus trapping Aphrodite and Ares in his own bed to humiliate both of them during one of their dalliances?
Yes, I'm sure. He was married to Aphrodite as a result of being unable to overpower Athena-- the attempted rape of Athena was actually on the honeymoon.

I dunno, Athena could be pretty cold. The Arachne incident alone is a good example. Yes, Arachne was being all filled with hubris in saying she was better than Athena, but she was right, even Athena grudgingly admitted it. And she wasn't claiming it to shame Athena; when she did that final weave that got her punished, she wanted Athena to be proud of her, since Athena'd always claimed that to improve your skills was the ultimate good. But nope, she couldn't have that, so SPIDER'D.
Yeah, but she provoked Athena by weaving tapestry pictures mocking her family. That's not exactly the best way to seek someone's approval.

But even worse than that, look at Troy; it was the city that held her Palladium, the city she had promised to always protect so long as it was held within its walls. So what does she do? She gets so spiteful towards the Trojans after the whole "who's the fairest" incident - something that really shouldn't even matter to her considering she'd never really cared about personal beauty anyway, she saw it as too feminine a concern to worry about; she just couldn't stand the insult - that she tells some of its heroes "oh, you don't need to worry, you are under my protection remember :)", appears to the Greeks and powers them up in order to let them slaughter Trojans better, and even helps Odysseus and Diomedes to sneak into Troy and steal the Palladium just so that she isn't breaking her own word. Then she manages to talk Zeus into getting so fed up over the whole thing that he essentially withdraws his own support of Troy, just to make sure as many Trojans as possible can be slaughtered.
Actually, it wasn't the beauty thing that she was pissed about, it was not getting the golden apple of Hesperides Still petty, yes.

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Re: Zeus vs. Daghdha

Back to the subject: I also (in my Project Ice topic) have designed a long-running feud between Cryonax and Kostchtchie, both of whom desire the worship of the frost giants, both are quasi-deities of cold, and have opposing portfolios (Kostchtchie is the quasi-power of fury/wrath while Cryonax is a quasi-power of dispassionate logic) and both despise the tactics of the other (see Dragon 345 for details-- Kostchtchie is a real woman hater while Cryonax finds his woman-slaying tactics to be a waste of good breeders, and Kostchtchie is probably beyond disgusted that Cryonax's herald/champion is a woman).

Also, while I haven't posted it in the Ice topic yet, Cryonax's method of discouraging Kostchtchie's cultists from slaying his cultists is beyond reprehensible. Since simply slaying them doesn't help (dying in battle is an honor, after all), Cryonax sends Frigidora and an all-female regiment to torture, emasculate and humiliate cultists of Kostchtchie who slay Cryonax's own cultists. The regiment includes marzanna and even a bheur hag or two, so you know some nasty stuff is involved.

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