Yggdrasil & Olympus

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Iavas's picture
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Yggdrasil & Olympus

Whether you're a devout follower of the Norse pantheon and believe that the shrub is the central axis of all existence or simply a planewalker that doesn't mind climbing to his next location, almost everyone has wandered on or wondered at Yggdrasil. Likewise, the greatest mountain the chaotic side of Celestia has brought countless followers of the Olympian deities to their knees in prayer and everybody else in exhaustion. These natural planar pathways play an important part in many Planescape campaigns, but unlike their watery counterparts (the Oceanus and the Styx), they are not so easy to envision.

As far as I understand, the main bulks of both are almost planes to themselves, having conditions seperate from the planes that they touch. Niether Yggdrasil's trunk nor Olympus' slopes are difficult to imagine - just a really big tree trunk (with gravity pointing toward the trunk) and a really big mountain, respectively. What do the parts that connect to the outer planes look like, however?

Yggdrasil throws out branches and roots to the upper and lower planes of chaos. From Yggdrasil's perspective, there is simply a portal as you go along a particular branch. What do they look like from the outer plane's perspective, though? Do the tree's limbs simply appear out of thin air? Is there a part of a branch hanging between two portals (one to Yggdrasil itself and the other to the Astral) or sticking out of the ground? Even though it is said to grow out of Niflheim, its roots reach out to many planes, including the Outlands. So, do you see a huge trunk growing out of Niflheim, or do you just see a single root? How big is Nidhogg, where does the rooster with his hawk-hat reside, why are the ratatosk such gossip mongers, and what the hell happened to the four deer?

Olympus is a bit easier than the tree, but still somewhat confusing. Reaching from the third layer of the Gray Wastes to its main bulk around Arborea, it looks like a simple mountain when you're walking on it. However, does one see a mountain base on both planes, or does it simply connect to portals in caverns around the Outer Planes while looking like a mountian from its own perspective only? What happens if you fly too far from the slope? Do you end up in the Astral, like when you jump off of Yggdrasil, or do you take a long drop and a sudden stop by Hades' doorstep?

Anyway, I think I've posed enough questions. I'd really like to hear some oppinions on the subject, so if you took the time to read all that, please don't be shy to share.

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Yggdrasil & Olympus

At least in the 1e MotP, there were just a bunch of color pools on both paths. Both Olympus and Yggdrasil primarily exist on the Astral Plane (but with gravity), and color pools throughout their mass lead to the planes (Outer and Material) where their respective pantheons are revered. Roots, tunnels, and peaks may poke through to other planes, however.

I think it's more interesting to give it a smoother transition, though. The Tree and the Mountain disappear in the infinite distance, and as you travel on them the terrain slowly changes - imperceptibly so - slowly shifting from blue sky scattered with clouds (or the gray, depressing sky of the Waste) to the bright silver of the Astral. You never see exactly where one plane becomes the other; the change is too slow and subtle for that.

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Yggdrasil & Olympus

I like the gradual transition idea except for one small problem. With Yggdrasil, for instance, some parts obviously exist on the outer planes rather than the astral. For example, the root that Nidhogg is chewing on and the one that is in the Well of Urd in the Outlands. Limbo's Pinwheel being the best of these described, it seems the root/branch just sticks out of the ground, which prompts the question of how would you travel along it to reach Yggrdasil?

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Yggdrasil & Olympus

'Iavas' wrote:
it seems the root/branch just sticks out of the ground,

I don't think it does, for the reason you describe - a root sticking out of the ground wouldn't be any good for traveling on, not without a shovel and a lot of time.

Rather, it either pokes out of a color pool or it's as I described - it extends into the distance (vanishing out of sight due to atmospheric haze or fog), and as you walk along it the land slowly transitions into the Astral Plane (or Niflheim, Asgard, Muspelheim, Vanaheim, Alfheim, Arborea, Glorium, the Well of Urd, Muspelheim, Nidvellir, the Beastlands, Elysium, Limbo, Midgard, Faerun, etc.).

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Yggdrasil & Olympus

Makes sense. I guess Pinwheel is just odd... it is in Limbo afterall. Now if I could just figure out what happened to the [url='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stags_of_Yggdrasill']four stags[/url] Smiling .

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Yggdrasil & Olympus

I really like the gradual idea but that mostly seems to describe what the transitions look like from the pathway. What does it look like from the planes? The rivers run on forever, and since the plane is infinite, you never see a specific spot where they hit a wall. But while a plane may go on forever, most of them still have a vertical distinction between the ground and the air.

If the base and foothills of Olympus is standing on Arborean soil, that explains how you get onto the mountain, but not how you turn around and head toward the lower planes. Does the destination in your mind change the way your feet take you? Or do you have to walk up the slope until you see the sky turn silver before you turn around and head downward? And if you are walking up the slope and want simply to head toward the peak, how would you avoid slipping into the Astral?

But if on the other hand Olympus does not have a base that stands in Arborea, how do Arboreans ever get to it except by flying? And how would the traveler on Olympus get off the mountain and onto the rest of Arborea?

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Yggdrasil & Olympus

'Vaevictis Asmadi' wrote:
What does it look like from the planes?

It just seems to vanish in the distance (at whatever distance all objects vanish - if the area is shadowy or foggy, this might not be very far).

Alternately, it may vanish behind anything that blocks your view, so a river might disappear as it flows behind a tree. As your angle of observation changes, the perceived point of departure may also change.

Looking at the Styx or Mount Olympus (or Yggdrasil, etc.) from high in the air, it would seem to be entirely on that plane. A river might seem to vanish into caves or crevasses.

Quote:
If the base and foothills of Olympus is standing on Arborean soil

It seems that way, but that's really just the tip of the iceberg - the majority of Olympus exists on the Astral Plane.

Quote:
that explains how you get onto the mountain, but not how you turn around and head toward the lower planes.[/q Does the destination in your mind change the way your feet take you?

Planes of Conflict actually has a map, showing that the way to get to the Gray Waste from Arborea is to enter caves in Mount Olympus and climb through the caves until you reach the Underworld.

That works for the Underworld, but it seems odd when discussing paths to the Material Plane. From the Material Plane, Mount Olympus also seems to rise from the earth - it's an actual mountain in Greece, after all. In this case, it would be odd to have to enter caves - I think you can reach the Outer Planes from Greece just by climbing upward. And the same is true in the opposite direction. So yes, intent probably changes the landscape, changing a descent to Arborea's flatlands to a descent to the Material Plane.

Planes of Conflict does say that Mount Olympus has a base that descends to Arborea, so that's not in question. We also know how you get to the Lower Planes from there (through caves). How you get to the Material Plane is a little trickier.

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Yggdrasil & Olympus

In difficult cases like Limbo or a PC with X-ray vision, you could have a bright silvery fog appear along the path. It would seem to obscure even the clearest magical sight, but the wise might catch a glimpse of the Astral 'sky' through the mist.

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Yggdrasil & Olympus

I just want to point out that Mimir.net's article on Yggdrasil mentions that some of its branches/roots specifically require a basher to be able to move through soil because they stick up out of the ground.

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Yggdrasil & Olympus

'Iavas' wrote:
I just want to point out that Mimir.net's article on Yggdrasil mentions that some of its branches/roots specifically require a basher to be able to move through soil because they stick up out of the ground.

Here's the article you're talking about, I think, or this one. The articles don't seem specific on the issue, though I'm sure there are roots that dig into the soil (they are roots, after all). Generally speaking, though, the end you want to travel on is going to go up, not down into the ground. On most planes, you get to Yggdrasil by climbing a tree; from there, you can climb down to Yggdrasil's Astral roots. When you reach dirt, you're at your destination and don't need to go any further. There might be more portals or planes of existence further down, accessible only within the soil, but I suspect this is rare.

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One of them mentions Yggdrasil manifesting in certain areas as a really big tree in a greater forest or cliff-face. Those would likely be the branches, so you would have to travel down to get to Yggdrasil proper. It would make sense for roots to hang down, but branches would have to be sprouting, and it would make sense for them to sprout through the ground. Thus, the need for a Xorn movement.

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'Iavas' wrote:
branches would have to be sprouting, and it would make sense for them to sprout through the ground.

Why would it make sense for branches to sprout through the ground? That very seldom happens in my experience with trees.

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I mean that it makes sense for branches to sprout up, with the thickest part, the one closer to the trunk, being lowest. Thus, if you can sort of imagine the planar layer to be a pancake, and the tree sort of... growing a branch through it... well, in my mind it would appear that the branch is sticking out of the ground, looking ever so much like a tree. It is the World Ash, though, and those trees have branches growing all directions.

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That would be true if you imagine that the Outer Planes are literally resting in the branches of Yggdrasil. That's not how it's presented, however. The branches touch the Outer Planes, but they don't support them. I think this is a preferable explanation for the reasons discussed earlier - having to dig through solid ground to reach Yggdrasil would be really, really annoying.

Where the Mimir mentions Yggdrasil manifesting as a large tree, they don't mean these are Yggdrasil's branches poking up through the earth - they mean they're a kind of avatar of the World Ash, and as you climb upward they become the true tree. This is also mentioned in Planes of Chaos, in "The Travelogue":

Walking along the wrong branch can lead a berk out into a forest that ain't part of Yggdrasil, a forest of viper trees in the Gray Waste, or the High Grove of Alfheim, or even a scrawny woods in the Prime. To get back, turn around immediately and climb the nearest tree; sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. This is what the ratatosk call "falling off the Tree."

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Yggdrasil & Olympus

When running the Dead Gods adventure I had my players travel portals that manifested in various ways on the World Ash. Some were required walking on the branches of the tree until you slowly transitioned to a forest environment and found yourself on the branches of a prime material world; other portals appeared as nests of leaves and twigs such as a squirrel or ratatosk would make, which required one to burrow into them to reach an underground destination; a few portals were simply colour pools bisecting the branch at a particular point and one had to walk through them.

The four stags are definitely still there. My guys visited them briefly but they didn't have time to chat and the panorama of the entire Nine Worlds spread out before them kind of made them mute anyway. I think the stags were conveying insulting messages to Nidhogg via the ratatosk.

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Personally, I would have the eagle/rooster and his hawk-hat be the protectors of Yggdrasil, the ratatosk the messengers and mouthpieces of the tree, Nidhogg as its destroyer, and the four deer as janitors, acting the equivalent of Sigil's dabus.

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Yggdrasil & Olympus

Throw in Skrimst and Fenrir as portal-keys into the mix and you're set for some weird planar exploration.

It might also be an idea to have the Ratatosk as a kind of demigod-like being fixing up the tree and running around neurotically trying to find the demiplanes it had buried somewhere a couple of millennia ago.

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I love Norse mythology. Laughing out loud It really speaks to me.

Question: What is Skrimst? I'm not familiar with it.

Also, while this is greatly off-topic, I can envision The Ratatosk sacrificing itself sometime in the past to preserve its progeny race. Shemmy's whole ratatosk deal with a Demented thing probably influenced that thought, though.

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'Krypter' wrote:
The four stags are definitely still there. My guys visited them briefly but they didn't have time to chat and the panorama of the entire Nine Worlds spread out before them kind of made them mute anyway. I think the stags were conveying insulting messages to Nidhogg via the ratatosk.
Do the stags have names in Norse mythology?

:bump: I don't know what Skrimst is either.

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'Tarion'sCousin' wrote:
Do the stags have names in Norse mythology?

Duneyrr, Durathror, Dvalin, and Dainn.

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