Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

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ShirreKnight's picture
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Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

is their something im missing, on why hivers dont universally evacuate the city, to some upper plane, the next time a portal is spotted.

cromlich's picture
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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

The city's second name is the Cage. Most of the Hivers are poor and can't afford portal keys, they are called the Keyless, the Marooned. Those who are lucky to discover a key don't want to share with their neighbors, that's the way of thinking in the Hive, everyone is for himself. Also as belief shapes the planes, the Hive mostly gets portals that suck, to Ooze, Pandemonium, Limbo ... and being cowards and pessimistic they believe it's ''better the devil you know'', they are accustomed to misery, they love it, change is scarier. Most of them are ignorant of the upper planes. Even if some group leaves for a better place, they are quickly replaced with new, miserable sods - the city is in balance.

KnightOfDecay's picture
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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

Totally agree with cromlich.

Another (minor) reason might be, that many Hivers probably don't share the alignments of the upper planes. It's hard to be 'a good person' in such a miserable environment as the Hive.

A chaotic neutral Hiver propably wouldn't feel very comfortable or welcome in Arcadia or on Mount Celestia.

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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

Most of the Upper Planes clearly don't let in just anybody. The lawful planes probably patrol the portals-- Arcadia would just turn them right back around, Celestia might try and convert them first, and maybe a few lucky sods would actually find work in Bytopia. As for the chaotic Upper Planes, they're *dangerous*. You could get eaten by wild animals in the first two, and you could fall over the edge of Ysgard, or get keelhauled by vikings.

You'd think Elysium would be all for saving those Hivers that could be saved. I daresay it's factions, gangs, and just their fellow Hivers keeping them down. Some are afraid, and those they're afraid of don't want to give up the power they've got, however little.

And chances are, some people in the Hive are just comfortable there. It's home.

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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

I think some might stay out of pure cynicism, not really believing they'd be happier elsewhere. And the planes being what they are, they probably wouldn't be.

Jem
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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

Why don't poor people in Africa all head for Europe? Why doesn't everyone leave Detroit? It's expensive to move. It's risky; travel is dangerous, and more dangerous under medieval conditions.

People have bonds with a place. Some are practical -- you have wealth invested in your home, and if no one is going to buy it (which is what happens if everyone leaves the Hive and no one comes in), then you have to abandon that investment. You have a job, of some kind, even if it's being a thief, and if you leave to go somewhere else, are you sure you're going to find a new one?

Some of those bonds are emotional. Sure, the Hive may suck, but godsdammit it's your Hive. You were born here, you'll die here, and in the meantime you're a Hiver and that means something. Damned if you know what and you'll probably be damned for it after you're Kadyx meat, but it's still what you are, and moving somewhere else means you lose that. At least you have some idea how this place works. Maybe, maybe some day you'll claw your way into the Lower Ward. But leave Sigil? The center of the universe? Never!

And Upper Planes, really, are for the dead. It's not really a place for mortals to live long-term. We do, because we can adapt to almost anything, but every Upper Plane is made out of raw, intense virtue in one form or another, something you have to deal with every time you try to tell a little white lie in Arcadia, or take a personal day in Bytopia, or hire on for the money at a job you don't much care for on Arborea. Living mortals have messy ethical muddles they have to deal with that the dead don't. Take chastity, for instance. The dead can all be celibate if their god says so. If mortals intend to continue the species, that can't happen. The Lower Planes will torture you, enslave you, kill you, and make you a jerk in twenty-four different orders, but at least they're not judgmental.

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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

Jem wrote:
Why don't poor people in Africa all head for Europe? Why doesn't everyone leave Detroit? It's expensive to move. It's risky; travel is dangerous, and more dangerous under medieval conditions.

The rest of your arguments are fairly sound; but if one can just step through a magical portal and arrive in a land of milk and honey, then there isn't much risk or cost regardless of the era in which one lives. It's like arguing that one wouldn't take a single step to the right if it would mean avoiding being hit by a bus

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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

Palomides wrote:
Jem wrote:
Why don't poor people in Africa all head for Europe? Why doesn't everyone leave Detroit? It's expensive to move. It's risky; travel is dangerous, and more dangerous under medieval conditions.

The rest of your arguments are fairly sound; but if one can just step through a magical portal and arrive in a land of milk and honey, then there isn't much risk or cost regardless of the era in which one lives.

Taking magic portals are lot more risky than just a little step.

Most of the bashers in the hive have not read the PS:CS. We know a lot more about how Sigil, the gates, the keys and the planes work than them.

Most important you'd have to know about the portal. Even if there are plenty of them in Sigil you'd have to be sure it really leads to a "land of milk and honey". If leaving Detroit via a portal could mean sending you being pressed into war service: You will think more than once before entering the gate. Even more so as gates are not always reliable. Then you will have to get the key and not everyone offering you a gatekey will be really honest about it. And depending on whom you ask: The upper planes are not a land of milk and honey anyway.

I think there will be a lot of hivers trying to leave the hive for this promised lands. Most of them will just never arrive there, because they'll get ripped by those, who sell fake portal keys or simply take the money and let the witness vanish, dead or alive, via any gate available. (Milk and honey every day is boring anyway Eye-wink )

So to keep your example:
Stepping into the portal is more like jumping off a bridge to escape the bus. You'll have to hope the bridge is not too high, there is (enough) water for a safe landing and someone will pull you out before you drown. Others will just stay and take the chance with the bus. It might just miss them or at least not kill them.

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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

Sorry, I still think this part of your argument is a little weak. Yes, the obtaining the proper key would be the tricky part of this; but to continue your analog, if one heard tales of people regularly jumping off the bridge, returning and doing it again (planar traders, explorers, etc.) then I think the allure of the cool, (probably) harmless river would look a lot more appealing than hard reality of the impending bus.
Also, while milk and honey might get boring; I imagine it would still be preferable to bilge water and rat meat (at least for most people).

I think the arguments of planes being the home of the deceased and the pantheons is a much more practical reason. I imagine the planes only call mortals that are strongly ideologically inclined the same way and that it would be somehow "uncomfortable" for a mortal to permanently reside on a plane that wasn't atuned to them.

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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

Residing on even the upper planes can be worse than "uncomfortable." Aside from the aforementioned dangers on some of the planes, I seem to recall that Elysium has an effect that parallels the overwhelming despair of the Grey Waste. Spend enough time there, and you not only don't want to leave, you don't really *want* anything anymore. You're just happy and at peace with the way things are. That might sound great to some, but it means abandoning all ambitions and accepting a life without excitement or change... some people would be horrified at the prospect.

Plus, I doubt that the Guardinals really *want* any immigrants in Elysium. The goodly dead have already given what they had to give and can do no more (save perhaps by ascending to become some manner of exemplars themselves). If a living being has a truly good heart, it should be out there in the muck, saving souls and protecting the innocent.

So go back to the hive! Open a soup kitchen! Start a vigilante group! Preach peace to gang leaders! Or simply lead by example and be a decent person. If you do even a little good before you die, then your life will not have been wasted, and there will be time enough to enjoy the fruits of Elysium afterward.

Of course, such words aren't likely to be very comforting to a bunch of desperate hivers turned away from the gates of paradise by a party of heavily-armed lupinals.

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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

"Uncomfortable" was meant to be an understatement.

I think the problem with the long-term solution of leading a virtuous life to get to the Upper Planes is that I imagine most Hivers are looking for a quick-fix solution (which typically adds to the suffering of other Hivers around them)

Regarding discouraging mortals from living on the Outer Planes, I apply the same logic in reverse for Sigil. To me, having too many celestials or fiends in Sigil doing mundane things like hanging out at bars seemed to rob them of their power as exemplars of good or evil. I changed most of the appearances in Sigil to tieflings or aasimar in league with the greater forces of the Outer Planes. And it made the few outsiders that I kept in Sigil (like A'kin) really stand out in contrast and made them seem special and significant.

CeruleanSpirit's picture
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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

I personally like the alignment-restriction argument. Sure I think they would all love to get to any of the upper plane to get the free goodies. But a quote from the guide to the cage offer us insight:

"But worse than the cries of the doomed creatures were the reactions of the gathering crowd, a motley collection of drunks, hoodlums and urchins who saw the animals' agony as great entertainment. Some clambered on rooftops for a better look. Some pelted the goats with garbage. Some urged the proprietor to do the butchering right there in the street. So the wagers could be placed."

The hivers alignment run from NE to CN. The are some CG but the are very sparse and few. The attitude of the hivers creates this hellish environment. Besides the 4 guilds residing the loves the place. It's the only place where the Xaositects can fool around without getting caught by hardheads for breaking the law 300 times a day. Dustmen like it, lots of deads to pick up. Bleakers likes the hopelesness of the place. Doomguards loves it because it look like a warzone.

The permanent portals in the hive leads to: Pandemonium, Limbo, Ooze, Lightning and Prime. No portal to upper plane. I would say getting a temporary portal to an upper place is probably almost impossible there. It's like getting a direct portal from Avernus to the one of the layer of Mount Celestia. So a Hiver would first have to get out of the hive to get to a place where he has a chance to get a portal to an upper plane.

Second, even if by a slim chance a portal to grand Elysium would pop up one day in the middle of the hive and a bunch of barmies would cross it, the Guardinals on the other side would be quickly alerted and would probably slay the evil ones and push the rest back through the portal and try to close it ASAP. They want to keep their plane clean. Only a good character would be admitted. One cutter might slip through unnoticed and hide for a while, but he would not be able to permanently stay there unless he get his attitude changed to good. The only place where they might have a chance is for CN characters in Ysgard. They would quickly be clossing steel with vikings.

Jem
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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

CeruleanSpirit makes a good point. Portals tend to open up in at least somewhat related places. Upper Plane portals are unlikely to pop up in the Hive, so Hivers are going to have difficulties finding them and getting access to them. Sort of the universal effect of the axiom that them what has gets and them what hasn't doesn't.

Another point has been sort of mentioned in connection with keys; a key which might be trivial for an adventurer ("a 10gp opal") might as well be a king's ransom for your average Hiver, and such pure and valuable items are more likely to be keys for many of the Upper Planes.

ShirreKnight's picture
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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

in Arcadia, I think that the Harmonium, might consider taking some people from such refugees, and try putting them in their indoctrination camps.

one or two volunteers, are probaly a novel idea, and a useful control group, as they best exemplify the social Ills that the harmonium wants to alleviate.

CeruleanSpirit's picture
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Re: Why dont hivers leave for upper planes?

Talking about keys: A blood's gotta know where are the portals and what the key to open them. Some would tend to imagine any resident of Sigil as a seasoned planeswalker, taking a portal to Ysgard to do some workout early morning, making a few thrill seeking treks into Gehenna now and then and finally retreating to their cozy chalet in Shurrock on week-ends. Not the case! The fricking place's called the Cage!

Keys can be as diverse as a couple of raw grains of bytopian coffee, a sung elven melody, a Rakshasa fang. Portal keys can be known by a couple of ways:

- Factions: Go ask a faction near the portal, they are actively looking for temporary portals. Faction HQ are built around permanent portal. The permanent ones are well defended. Sticking with a faction in Sigil is not only a matter of convenience and protection, it's also about getting around.
- Spells: A warp sense spell gives a clue toward what key's needed, as does a contact higher plane or legend lore spell. I'd give equal chance to a Bardic Knowledge check.
- Shops: There's shops in Sigil, like Tivvum's Antiquities in the Market Ward, that do nothing but sell items needed for gate keys. They probably would know a thing or two about gates in their area. But no honest merchant would open shop or a stall in the Hive.
- Black market: In the Hive, there are underground black markets. You gotta know where the place. You would probably be able to buy information about portals and portal keys there. However their price is probably much higher and you run the chance of being shafted. Learn to read the "X"s and "O"s.

That said, almost all lower crust residents of the Hive are poor, keyless and Marooned. I would not want to be a level 0 prime falling into a portal into Sigil. For such, the place is hostile, it's a lite version of the lower planes. Finding the right portal and they key is an adventure all by itself. And most portals in the hive suck.

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