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Why aren't genies and mephits type "elemental"?

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Thu, 2006-08-24 12:57
#1
420
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Why aren't genies and mephits type "elemental"?

I posted this on WotC's D&D forum but I thought I'd get the opinions of the planewalkers on this one:

Quote:
From the 3.5 System Reference Docs:
Quote:
Elemental Type: An elemental is a being composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water.

Quote:
Outsider Type: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

Does this mean genies and mephits aren't composed of the "material" of the elemental planes they are native to? Were they some other type of creature before coming to the elemental planes and becoming Outsiders?

I don't quite understand the distiction between Outsiders and Elementals when it comes to genies and mephits. Their nature makes them seem closer to Elementals than to Outsiders.

Also, while I'm on the subject, since the "Planar Golems" in Monster Manual III are "made from the matter of an Outer Plane" wouldn't that make them more like "Outer Plane Elementals" than constructs?

-420

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Thu, 2006-08-24 13:25
#2
eldersphinx
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Why aren't genies and mephits type "elemental"?

Mephits, IIRC, aren't wholly made of pure elemental matter. There's a bit of something else inside them. Also noteworthy are the many types of mephits that aren't The Big Four of 3rd ed cosmology - Dust and Ooze aren't 'pure' elemental material in 3E and onwards.

Genies are even more clearly outsiders - they draw strongly on elemental essence for vitality and power, but are made up of muscle, skin and bone. They're outsiders, not elementals.

As for the outer planar golems, there's no way they're elementals. They're formed of the matter and power of an outer plane, which is rarefied belief and ideal given form, not elemental matter. There's no such thing as "Arcadian" or "Ysgardian" elemental matter, and so beings formed from the appropriate planar stuff aren't elementals.

Thu, 2006-08-24 14:39
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ripvanwormer
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Why aren't genies and mephits type "elemental"?

There's more to the definitions of "elementals" and "outsiders" than that. The salient qualities of an elemental are (1) composed of inner planar substance and (2) immune to critical hits. The second part is important: it means the being has no discernable anatomy, no organs, no head and neck, no vulnerable points. A being that's a cloud of smoke or a living wave is an elemental.

Mephits aren't immune to critical hits because some parts of their anatomy are more vulnerable than others. They are primarily made up of inner planar substance, but if you chop their heads off, they die. That isn't true for a ooze paraelemental or a belker.

Genies are actually made of magic rather than the elements. A djinni is made of air magic, a dao is made of earth magic, a marid is made of water magic, an efreeti is made of fire magic, and a janni is made of all four types of elemental magic, but this is still pretty different from being made of actual elemental matter.

Thu, 2006-08-24 15:35
(Reply to #3) #4
420
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Why aren't genies and mephits type "elemental"?

OK, a lot of that makes sense, thanks for clearing it up. However, these two statements really confused me:

'eldersphinx' wrote:

Genies are even more clearly outsiders - they draw strongly on elemental essence for vitality and power, but are made up of muscle, skin and bone. They're outsiders, not elementals.

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
Genies are actually made of magic rather than the elements. A djinni is made of air magic, a dao is made of earth magic, a marid is made of water magic, an efreeti is made of fire magic, and a janni is made of all four types of elemental magic, but this is still pretty different from being made of actual elemental matter.
So, are genies made of magic or bone, flesh and blood?

Someone want to bring me a +1 scalpel and a janni?

-420

Thu, 2006-08-24 19:54
(Reply to #4) #5
ripvanwormer
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Why aren't genies and mephits type "elemental"?

They're made of magical bones, flesh, and blood. They have organs, which is why they're not immune to critical hits, but those organs aren't really the same stuff as what mortals are made of.

Fri, 2006-08-25 00:42
(Reply to #5) #6
420
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Why aren't genies and mephits type "elemental"?

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
They're made of magical bones, flesh, and blood. They have organs, which is why they're not immune to critical hits, but those organs aren't really the same stuff as what mortals are made of.

Well, that makes my +1 scalpel request even more urgent!

So are genies/mephits Elemental-turned-Outsider or do they have another origin?

I like this idea posted on the D&D forums:

'Rotipher' wrote:
Genies and mephits -- like fiends or (most) celestials -- have bodies constucted along a similar plan to those of Material Plane creatures. Their bodies might be built out of extraplanar elemental substances rather than carbon-based molecules, but they're structured in a fashion that mimicks an organic life form, hence they can't survive serious damage to internal organs, deprivation of food or air, etc. They're not of the "elemental" type because they're fully vulnerable to such effects, even if they do have an elemental subtype that allows them to endure conditions on their home planes.

So it could be possible that genies were sorcerer humans that migrated to the elemental planes a long time ago. In that same respect the strange imp-like creatures could be from anywhere, a race of creatures with a superior ability to adapt to their environment (like a cockroach).

-420

Fri, 2006-08-25 17:42
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ripvanwormer
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Why aren't genies and mephits type "elemental"?

'420' wrote:
So are genies/mephits Elemental-turned-Outsider or do they have another origin?

According to the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix, mephits are created by fiends from elemental substance. Something like the elemental equivalent of imps, I guess. Maybe they can also create more of their own kind the same way that fiends do it (with variant summon monster spells). It's possible that they might be elemental spirits twisted into outsider form, but that's just speculation.

Genies, according to Secrets of the Lamp, are personifications of magic in its four elemental provinces. I don't think they were ever elementals or mortals.

Thu, 2006-11-16 14:01
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Vaevictis Asmadi
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Why aren't genies and mephits type "elemental"?

But here's my question: according to the World of Sulerin index, Sollux (magma genies) are Monstrous Humanoids. But they are descended from Efreet who simply migrated to the Prime Material. Shouldn't they still be Outsiders?

Thu, 2006-11-16 15:56
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ripvanwormer
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Why aren't genies and mephits type "elemental"?

'Vaevictis Asmadi' wrote:
But here's my question: according to the World of Sulerin index, Sollux (magma genies) are Monstrous Humanoids. But they are descended from Efreet who simply migrated to the Prime Material. Shouldn't they still be Outsiders?

It sounds like you're right. I don't think solluxes have been officially converted to 3e stats, so that was just the World of Sulerin guy's opinion, not the official view.

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