Who can and who can't...

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Archibald's picture
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Who can and who can't...

...enter in Sigil?
I read somewhere in the boxed steeing that a pit fiend wouldn't pass the portal. And I read in the adventures of plane of law the story of a solar wandering the place. Considering the solar is MUCH more powerful than the pit fiend, and could be a semi power if he wanted to (that's from the monstrous compendium 1) I don't get the logic.
Is it that the solar just wouldn't act toward taking the city away from the lady, and then is let in?
Or is it that the adventures in Planes of Law (and Planes of Chaos) are just not all that good?
(I'd go for solution number two)

But this leaves the question: who is too powerful to enter sigil?
Someone able to cast higher than 6th level?
Any member of the top rankings in the immortal planar races?
Can a Bebilith enter sigil? and an holyphant? and an artifact? and a very high level non-spell caster? efreets and some djinis are able to cast wish, can they enter? and someone in the possession of a magical item able to cast wish?
Is there a case to case estimation by the Lady (taking in account the personality of the cutter to estimate the threat, for example), or is there just a standard maximum power to be allowed in?

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I think that anwser is: there is not question how powerful you are (in example of solar) but rather if you pose direct threat to Sigil or Lady.
For now anyone can enter Sigil exept powers (but that is also debatable becaouse in Sigil was temple created from flesh of dead god) and factions had to disband their organisations if they wished to remain in city.

But on other hand Sigil is crawling with proxies and warious fiends, and all those (even tanar´ri) behave themselfs to some point, but some creatures have their own personal resons for not entering city. Like in Pit fiend example reasons may be warious: it could be just paranoia or named pit fiend coused troble in city´s past.

Another example: race of planar merchants called Arcane (in 3.5e they renamed them in Merckanes) awoid entering Sigil if that thing is posible, or if they must enter in city they try to finish their buisnes there cuickly as possible and then they leave.

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420
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Also, the ban on Powers entering Sigil seems to have happened some time after Aoskar got sliced and diced because he resided in Sigil up to that point.

-420

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'420' wrote:
Also, the ban on Powers entering Sigil seems to have happened some time after Aoskar got sliced and diced because he resided in Sigil up to that point.

-420

That's not actually a known fact. While I've seen it said often, I don't recall it being in print (but even so, that period of history is incredibly hazy and little is honestly known about the period or points before).

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Yes, there is no written evidence that gods did or didn´t enter Sigil before Aoskar death.
But it seem´s that they could enter Sigil, then Aoskar became too posesive and Lady decided that gods are too dangerous for her city, and rest is history.
I mean, what could be more shocking to gods and their overblown egos than fact that one of them is brutaly murdred, and rest of them kicked out like some stray dogs. (Pun intended). Smiling

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'Shemeska the Marauder' wrote:
That's not actually a known fact. While I've seen it said often, I don't recall it being in print (but even so, that period of history is incredibly hazy and little is honestly known about the period or points before).

I seem to recall an implication (no idea if it's canon or not) that the Lady put the ban on powers because of the Aoskar incident.

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Kay
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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
'Shemeska the Marauder' wrote:
That's not actually a known fact. While I've seen it said often, I don't recall it being in print (but even so, that period of history is incredibly hazy and little is honestly known about the period or points before).

I seem to recall an implication (no idea if it's canon or not) that the Lady put the ban on powers because of the Aoskar incident.

Would make sense.

I also think she wouldn't let in any nuclear devise. One BOOM and the city is gone. :shock:

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Unless specific stated in 3.5 (i only have all the 2nd edition stuff) everything is allowed into Sigil except powers. As long as they are visiting due to buisness reasons and not to trash sigil or the like. People die all the time in sigil and as longs as it has nothing to do with taking over sigil or the like, its simply not important.
You dont see a Baatezu vs Tanari brawl as they treat sigil as a temporary truce; they still hate eachother, but they know that if they start a fight things can get messy and eventually youll have small bloodwar in the Cage, which will result in a Ban - and none of the Fiends are interested in that.
I believe they keep their doings in the dark, after all, they might be evil but evil is intelligent too.

- just my thoughts.

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I think planar paragons like Demogorgon, Dis, Domiel and Queen Morwel also can't go to Sigil even if they're not powers. There's the one exception of some Abyssal Lord that's cheated to get in through that printing press, but otherwise none of them can get in. It's even brought up in Savage Tide In Dungeon Magazine where they mention that Gwynharwyf, Malcanthet and Orcus can't go to Sigil because they have worshippers. Though no mention on whether or not Charon (who's a Yugoloth Lord, that apparently has no worshippers) could go in. Then again Charon probably never wants to leave the River Styx for long. But Malcanthet is described as having the option of either using an astral projection of herself to go into the Cage or having one of her radiant sister Lilitu proxies enter.

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As far as I know arch-fiends/celestials and powers can't enter. a pit fiend or balor or solar definitely should be able to enter. If you use fiend folio stats it may also be possible that some less powerful arch-fiends/celestials could enter (Jubilex being less powerful than a balor and all) :/

420
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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
'Shemeska the Marauder' wrote:
That's not actually a known fact. While I've seen it said often, I don't recall it being in print (but even so, that period of history is incredibly hazy and little is honestly known about the period or points before).

I seem to recall an implication (no idea if it's canon or not) that the Lady put the ban on powers because of the Aoskar incident.


Aoskar was the god of portals after all, perhaps Fell's "betrayal" was actually a fabricated excuse for the Lady to flay Aoskar and claim sole dominion over portals. Fell may well be the Lady's most loyal servant, living as a pariah to protect the fact that the Lady's whole plan was to ban Powers from her realm.

-420

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You all seem to agree that only power are banned, yet I definitely remember reading that portals to sigil could be use to let PCs get away from too powerful monsters after them because they wouldn't be let in the city. Wouldn't they be let in because they are not there for business but aggresive pursuing, then?

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'Archibald' wrote:
You all seem to agree that only power are banned, yet I definitely remember reading that portals to sigil could be use to let PCs get away from too powerful monsters after them because they wouldn't be let in the city. Wouldn't they be let in because they are not there for business but aggresive pursuing, then?

If anything, I think it would be because the monsters threaten the integrity of Sigil. Remember, the factions were OK, till they started causing problems for Sigil itself, and thus threatened the city. If a monster could cause enough destruction, then it's possible the Lady would prevent the monster from entering on that basis.

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Archibald Wrote:

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You all seem to agree that only power are banned, yet I definitely remember reading that portals to sigil could be use to let PCs get away from too powerful monsters after them because they wouldn't be let in the city. Wouldn't they be let in because they are not there for business but aggresive pursuing, then?

Maybe this is explanation to this: Using portals to escape from monsters tactic is based on fact that most portals once opened remain opened for wery short time, about 6 seconds or so (1 round), wich is usualy enough for party to escape from peril that is chaseing them, and that would work only if they have distance between them and chaser. Becaouse if chaser is near they could also use portal to slip trough.

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There might also be practical reasons that powerful monsters *can* but don't *want* to enter Sigil.

First off, some entities might not be able to help causing trouble (like the exampled Pit Fiend), and the Lady's punishments tend to be on the harsh side for trouble makers. I doubt even a Balor particularly wants to get flayed.

Another factor is that powerful fiends and such might not want to leave their power bases for as long as a trip to Sigil takes. If the aforementioned Pit Fiend gets mazed for causing a riot, it'll be lucky to have the support of a lemure by the time it gets out.

Then there are logistical aspects. Most powerful planars are used to planeshifting all over the place, so having to go look for a portal is probably unnecessarily bothersome for them.

Oh, and wasn't there a pit fiend mentioned in the PSCS as living in the Baatezu slum of Sigil? Or rumors of one at any rate?

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Wasn't the contact in "In The Abyss" a pit fiend in disguise? Yes, I think so.

420
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I found this little tidbit on page 47 of the Planescape Campaign Setting:

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’Course, just because the Lady of Pain’s blocked the doors doesn’t mean the fiends quit trying to get in. She’s got to remain strong to keep them out, and if they can weaken her, the seals will fall - and all Pandemonium will break loose. Maybe the fiend lords can’t enter Sigil, but their agents, proxies, and sympathizers are there. Those berks are searching for the key, the way to bring down the Lady of Pain.

Looks like the "fiend lords" definitely can't come in.

-420

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I think at the very beginning of 'The Deva Spark' there's a scene in the Ubiquitous Wayfarer that shows a Marilith and a Solar both in Sigil, and I believe there's either a Pit Fiend or a Balor at the bar drinking

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In the end, you can just conclude that there's a lack of coherence on this point, then...
Tshh, if even the good old planescape holy products can't be relied on, where's the multiverse going?

For my part I'll stick to the you're too powerful, you can't enter, but remains the question: what is too powerful? gonna have to think that out...

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Ultimately the answer is "if The Lady thinks you're a threat, you're out of luck" so most very powerful creatures probably err on the side of caution, becuase things like Pit Fiends and Balors are arrogant enough to assume they are a threat to The Lady... and at that level they may well have given sufficient thought to being rid of her that travel to Sigil makes them uneasy. I don't think there's a blanket 'ban' on those creatures (or their good equivalents) visiting the cage however. Basically I think there's a difference between a Balor and a 'fiend lord' (I'd suspect that they're talking about Abyssal Lords and Lords of the Nine in the 2e source, a distinct step up in power from Balors and Pit Fiends).

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I would imagine the Lady would permit most things to enter the city (barring deities, specific named/hideously powerful/hideously influential fiends and the like). The question would be how a powerful spell/creature ability is used.

For example, say an NPC uses a wish spell to attempt to kill the Lady (surely someone has tried this at some point). Not only would the spell fail, the spellcaster would be found hideously flayed somewhere. Someone using a wish spell to attempt to destroy an entire faction or large parts of the city might well end up mazed or flayed.

Using a wish spell to kill a factol would probably not bother the Lady unduly, since it (probably) doesn't directly threaten either her power or the security of the city.

Ultimately, the Lady is a Deus ex Machina that keeps the city under control, in a setting that's rampant with extremely powerful beings who have competing interests.

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The only firm limitation is "no powers," which includes the near-powers like Graz'zt and Baalzebul.

Pit fiends, epic spellcasters, and just about everyone else can come in if they behave themselves. And in most cases, punishment is left to the mortal authorities rather than the Lady of Pain interfering directly. Only threats to the city or to the Lady's perceived authority are dealt with by the Lady of Pain herself.

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'Archibald' wrote:
Tshh, if even the good old planescape holy products can't be relied on, where's the multiverse going?

I asked a guy on the street about it. He said:

You expect to find meaning in some book? Look, berk, here's the chant: there isn't a reason for it. Sigil just is. The Lady? Doesn't matter what she does. If she's even real. I mean, sure it's said she flayed that former Mercykiller factol, but I wasn't there. Did you see it? Yeah, nobody's seen a power in the city since Aoskar's day, but why should there be a reason for it? Just the way the Cage works, man.

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I'd say beyond anyone who is close to a power or can cause the Lady problems, they could probably get in.

The Ancient Wizard was of some significantly high level, 50 or 60 or something, and he was let in. I guess she couldn't ban him from the Cage, so she trapped him in a gem instead.

Chuck Norris could probably get into Sigil, unless all these "facts about Chuck Norris" that have went around the internet have suddenly elevated him to a power.

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In fact Chuck Norris could very well be a demigod by d20 numbers ("a few hundred...devoted mortal worshipers"). This is because the d20 numbers are silly. Every Power with a following worthy of planar notice would be a Greater Power at a bare minimum.

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If the belief system actually works. When and if Chuck Norris dies he may be the only one who could actually overthrow the Lady of Pain! Hmmm a Norris run Sigil I smell a fiercly thickening plot...

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'Zeniel' wrote:
If the belief system actually works. When and if Chuck Norris dies he may be the only one who could actually overthrow the Lady of Pain! Hmmm a Norris run Sigil I smell a fiercly thickening plot...

Hmmm. All the blades and sharp bits in the city replaced with carvings of elbows and fists and roundhouse kicks. Truly horrifying

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NOt to mention that if you did upset Chuck Norris there'd be no mazing for you just a swift painful roundhouse kick into oblivion.

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