Which Factions Do You Relate To?

Yeah, better buy a copy of the Factols Manifesto before joining a faction. "I'll have to go mad? Aw crap!"

I don't consider myself to be a very spontaneous person either, but given the choice and backed up by a faction, the Cipher philosophy seems very appealing.

I found a test:
http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=planescape

Guess what?

Trancendent Order (100%)
Harmonium (81%)
Society of sensation (81%)
Believers of the Source (74%)
Free League (70%)
Revolutionary League (66%)
Athar (54%)
Sign of One (54%)
Fraternity of Order (50%)
Expansionist (47%)
Incantifiers (47%)
Mercykillers (47%)
Doomguard (39%)
Dustmen (35%)
Xaositects (35%)
Bleak Cabal (27%)
Fated (27%)
Outsider (0%)

I'm right there with you. Karan, The Painter, Sly Nye etc. are definetely among the smartest and most creative cutters in the Cage.

On the other hand, I think that number of these true (Performance-)Artists among the Xaositects is actually comparably small. Considering that many Chaosmen hail from the Hive I can't see art as their top priority.

Another interesting question is the age at which factioneers usually join their factions. Is there any comment on that topic in the official sources? The only example I can remember is Nilesia being rejected at the age of 11 (12?) and being accepted as a Mercykiller at about 15.
Youths tend to be interested in all kinds of subcultures and to leave them behind when they grow older. What if in PS you joined a faction like the Dustmen or the Doomguard (Entropy sounds so kewl!) at the age of 16? Dropping out and becoming a reputable bank clerk doesn't seem to be very common.

For those commenting that the Bleak Cabal is disappointing because of its madness, the last Planescape game I played in had the GM replace them with the Dadaists. Everything was still meaningless, but they weren't depressed about it. They drank a lot of coffee and did poetry slams instead. ^_^

I would certainly be Guvner, with a strong desire to synthesize their research faculties with the Society of Sensation's records. Need data to find patterns in!

In this world, I am atheist and it is a strong component of my outlook, but in that world I would likely have to reconsider the position -- I might still come to the Athars' conclusion, but there are many interpretations of the Powers, and it would depend on what kind seemed to be present in the world I had fallen in to.

(Oh, and I got 100% Fraternity of Order on the test. No shock.)

I'm the only Sensate/Xaositect on the boards, aren't I?

I relate to the Revolutionary League, and all other factions except Harmonium.

*high fives all around*

I will agree with Jem's assessment that there probably aren't too many "second-place-Xaositects third-place-Guvners" though. I understand the whole order/chaos thing to be two halves of the same coin. It's my inner Taoist shining through, I think.

I don't mind the Harmonium, though I think the entire faction would be better served by less zealotry, and pursuing more peace, less order. It also needs to root out corruption within its ranks. Beyond that, it doesn't particularly bother me as a faction.

The Doomguard are dangerous. Likewise with the Mercykillers.

The Dustmen are...well, I see no particular reason to hang around with somebody so morose. But hey, if they're getting some kind of meaning out of their particular outlook, who am I to cast judgement their way?

I can appreciate the aims of the Bleakers, though I can't get behind their nihilism. Compassion for the sake of compassion, even in the face of the complete meaninglessness of the universe is kinda noble.

The Fated I'd probably keep at an arm's length from me as I wouldn't trust them.

The Anarchists are...very angry. I can understand and appreciate the need to overthrow authority, but it's not something that always needs to be done. I see them in sort of the same way I see Anonymous.

I see the Indeps as sorta apathetic, in a "Leave me the hell alone" sort of way. I can dig that, but it seems too focused on the everyday and the immediate.

More power to the Athars. I'm functionally an atheist, though my own personal philosophical beliefs are mostly orthogonal to questions about the (non)existence of the divine. Decrying the Powers seems like a dangerous past-time when there's an entire multiverse out there filled with beings who consider themselves to be Powers. No thanks.

Believers of the Source? I generally figure that this is the only life I have. I'm going to be the best person I can right now and if that somehow folds back in to me being forged into a higher being, woot! That's not the end goal for me though.

The Sign of One's philosophy seems like just so much mental slight of hand and full of cognitive dissonance. It's not something I could get behind as a long-term philosophical practice.

I like the Fraternity of Order because of its endless pursuit of understanding. I'm ever inquisitive when it comes to understanding something, though I'm perhaps not the most orderly person in approach. I'll try something random to see what happens. Then again. Eventually I try enough bits of randomness that I build up a good picture of how something works.

I never would've pegged myself as a Sensate, though I suppose I can get behind the faction's philosophies. The best way to understand something is to experience it, the good and the bad. But it's only through understanding something that you can overcome and move past it.

I can get behind the Xaositects. I call myself an Erisian Taoist, only half-jokingly. It's not about chaos for me, but spontaneity which is why I see the Xaositects and the Ciphers as being very similar.

If I ever found myself in the Planescape universe, I'd aim to join with the Ciphers. I don't particularly care about notions surrounding the loss of self. Moving in cadence with the universe is something that appeals to me and it's a sort of ideal that I already hold already.

The Hardheads are certainly played up as a faction full of power mad types in canon. I'd be willing to take a far more charitable view of the faction if they could get rid of the intolerant types and those who think the best way to deal with people is brainwashing them. In any case, taking on the role of authority and responsibility is often thankless, so I can appreciate the faction from that standpoint.

In a way, both. In the game, one of my favorite old npcs was an Anarchist that infiltrated the Sensates, he wanted to break down the illusory world created by the senses, using this philosophy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia . In real life I'm not sure if any system of anarchy would work, it's just that I have no respect for the system in place right now. In the future perhaps there could be a society like the Culture from Iain M. Banks' novels.

Mine showed up mainly Bleak Cabal, Godsmen and Indeps, which is odd since I mostly consider myself Free League. My philosophy for most of my life, where I've actually had enough of a brain to have a philosophy, was that you can't just decide you believe in something and stick with that trough everything. An appropriate reaction must be chosen to each event that occurs in your life, and a proper set of mind is needed as well.

As such I most sympathize with the Indeps, agreeing with them that all the factions suffer from tunnel vision. They aren't flexible enough. Well except for the Transcendent Order, but then again the Ciphers are the most awesome thing in the Planes anyway.

Also, as Tequila Sunrise pointed out a few comments above, it's important to differentiate between the core of a faction's philosophy and the personal take and political ambitions of it's factol and factors. I was just reading up on the Fated again, and was thinking that I'd actually sympathize with them a lot more if they dropped the extreme obsession with taxing, money-grabbing and extortion of people and went back to the self-sufficiency and survivalist philosophy from which they sprang from (and to which they return after the events of the Faction War when the Duke gets a nice lesson on what happens when you poke the wrong bear in the woods)

Edit: Also, something which I literally remembered I was going to write just as I hit the "save" button - People should really keep in mind the context of which many of these philosophies spring up. Tequila Sunrise, I wouldn't really tell any dedicated factotum of any of the factions you listed to "grow up". One should always be aware of the cultural, geographical and in this case - metaphysical context from which a philosophy springs up. While I love reading about a lot of ancient Greek philosophy, 99.9% of it is completely irrelevant now, due to the fact that it is a product of a different time and culture. The same thing can, and should be applied to the Factions. I don't see the Sign of One's solipsistic and ego-centric philosophy as juvenile, mostly because they are right - the mind does influence the world around them. Belief manifests in the Outer Planes as direct change in your environment.
Same with the Dustmen - we don't have people reincarnating left and right here, do we? (Supposedly there was this one guy a few thousand years ago who did it ONCE...and look what that ended up looking like!/lolreligiousjoke). What I'm saying is - we can't conceivably relate to their world view and mindset because we don't exist in the same world as them.

I'd say tied between Godsmen and Cipher.

Let me do that test thing...

I'm New Age baby! 100% Sensates, 88% Godsman, 88% Cipher!

As a practicing Buddhist, I have to yet again shake my head at the parallels people keep finding between Zen Buddhism and the Dustmen.
Yes, Buddhists advocate a "negation of passions" but except for the more austere sects, this applies more to a change of mindset to stop thinking that the world should conform to the way you think it should and to shift to a mindset that isn't focused on oneself.
It's like if someone were to say that the central most important image of Christianity was a man being slowly tortured to death. Yes, it's true on one level; but it REALLY misses the point of the religious faith that means so much to many millions.
Watch the Dalai Lama speak for ten minutes and then tell me if you think that he would make a good Dustman (not the way I picture that faction). In my mind, the Cyphers are closer to Zen Buddhism than the Dustmen

Palomides, I'd be interested in your views on what elements of Buddhism might be found in the faction philosophies, especially what might be accessible for a respectful, entertaining treatment by a nonpracticing Westerner GM. I understand that not all Buddhists are glum, but then, the image of Buddhism as a dour, world-rejecting religion of ascetics goes as far back as The Vinegar Tasters. (Admittedly, that particular painting was probably Taoist propaganda, but the Confucian/Buddhic/Daoic divide could be reasonably applied to several of the faction philosophies as well -- the Harmonium and the Fraternity would find a lot to agree with in Confucianism.)

I see elements of Western religions in many of the factions -- Deism in the Godsmen and Athar, for instance. Interestingly, the closest to the opposite of the revealed religions, a personality-centered prophetic religion, probably is the Dustmen: their founder is still around and preaching! So I'd be curious what elements you can see of the traditions you're familiar with in these philosophies.

Jem - First off, thank you for being civil as it is easy, when talking about religion, to get nasty (intentionally or not) quickly. Hopefully, I wasn’t guilty of that with comments above

Second, I apologize in advance for this digression

I have never viewed Buddhism as being glum (again, with the exception of some of the more austere sects). The Dalai Lama is a much more happy and upbeat person than many of the Popes have been. Further, Buddha is possibly the only religious figure that is frequently portrayed as laughing (again, depending on the culture depicting him – but still, while I’ve seen pictures of Jesus benignly smiling; I’ve never seen him with a belly laugh)
This might be colored heavily by my breakthrough insight into Buddhism. I read about Buddhism and had picked up the “passionless” themes; but having lived in Japan and other eastern nations, I knew that it obviously wasn’t about being Vulcan-like; but I still didn’t “get it”. Then I read a book about comedy and what makes things funny. Then it clicked.
Much of humor works because it breaks a person out of a mental rut. For example, there is an old joke where a man is amorously pursuing a woman. Finally, she turns to him and explains, “My heart belongs to someone else”, to which he replies “That’s OK. That wasn’t the part of your body I was interested in”
Now while you may or may not find that joke amusing, it does illustrate the point. We use the term “heart” so ubiquitously when talking about love or emotion that it is a small surprise when someone uses it strictly anatomically again (and also adds a layer of less noble romantic interests)
To my mind (and I am not a master of satori), Zen Buddhism is trying to do the same thing. We get stuck in our mental ruts, obsessing about ourselves and the way things “ought to be” and what we "should" possess. That's what causes our suffering. The koans and other somewhat Absurdist strategies that are sometimes used are attempts to break us out of our mental ruts and to approach things from a different angle.
The other example I use is to think back to your first date. Most of us will smirk at our cluelessness and anxiety about that first date because we can look back on it from the experience of years. But if younger versions of ourselves heard us giggling, the younger versions of us would get really upset because of how colossally important that first date was at that moment in our lives. Same event, but different perspectives determine how much suffering or humor we find in any moment.

[Tequla Sunrise – your replacement faction is much closer to what I identify with my religious beliefs]

Now off the personal and back to the game:
To my mind, each faction was inspired by but not perfectly mirroring “real” philosophical/religious system. (And I think that is as it should be). But here are some of the eastern elements I’ve seen in the factions.
-Based on my approach to Buddhism (don’t obsess on how things “ought” to be and embrace the now), I see the most parallels with the Cyphers being in tune with the planes. But the Cyphers seem (in my interpretation) to avoid mental contemplation
-The Dustmen do advocate a passionlessness; but to my mind this doesn’t equate to the Buddhist admonishment to “remove desires/passions”. Their obsession with death seems to be the opposite of a religion I see as embracing (but not trying to control) life. But the Dustmen would fit with any of the more severe sects of any religion that advocate renouncing “worldly things”
-The Godsmen believing that we are continually tested in our advancement to godhood can be seen as the parallel to the eastern beliefs of reincarnation to attain Nirvana. But, Zen Buddhism (at least my denomination) doesn’t stress the goal of future lives and the ability to “advance” to the next higher level. I think both Hindus and Buddhists would agree that if you are striving to be good in order to “advance” (as opposed to doing it to be good) then you are probably being too egotistical and actually working against your spiritual well-being
-As you pointed out, the (I’ll call it) exactness of Confucianism would mesh pretty well with the Harmonium and the Guvners

I’m pushing the rest of these analogies; but
-One could argue that the Bleakers push to find meaning within oneself instead of in an external source fits with the Buddhist de-emphasis on God and on self-reliance for salvation (the Buddha is a “saint” who found the way to Nirvana not a godly being – although many cultures effectively treat him as a godly figure calling upon him for divine intervention)
-One could view the Doomguard’s belief in the inevitability of entropy as the embrace of the impermanent (and subsequent unimportance) of all worldly things which meshes well with the austere sects of both eastern and western religions
-While not an expert on Hinduism, I believe the Sign of One was inspired (in part) by the concept of Maya and the waking dream of physical existence. But whereas I believe the goal in Hinduism is to see through this to the greater spiritual existence (parallels to Plato’s “Allegory of the Cave”); I always saw the Signers as embracing this walking dream and seeking to control it

Anyone else more knowledgeable have anything to add?

I agree that we should tread lightly regarding comparing/misunderstandings of current popular religions. I have always respected the general civility of the contributers to this web site; and I do want to contribute to that general sense of goodwill; so if I came off as too preachy or too argumentative, I apologize

Back to the topic and especially the Dustmen. I guess it depends on how one handles them. It is very easy to give them the label of "goth teenager" and they still work as a faction (although it makes them less likely for a serious gamer to want to join them or care about them)
I always try to have one or two members of a faction that are the comical extremes (e.g. a cartoonishly greedy member of the Fated, a Eeyore-like member of the Bleakers) just because they are easy to remember and can provide some comedy to the game. But I do try to find some meaningful truth to the faction's core philosophy to provide motivations that actually carry some weight. Then if the PCs run a mission for them, the mission will actually have some importance to the world around them.

The faction I always have the hardest time integrating are the Signers. It's hard for me to think of ways that a group of people so self-absorbed as to think they are creating the universe are able to work together towards any meaningful goals. As a result, I do usually fall back on the comic portrayal of burnt-out hippies saying things like "Man, that was some trippy stuff I thought of to create the Abyss"

The paternal Signer: I created you, therefore I have a responsibility to see to your happiness as best I can. Obviously I can't help everybody everywhere... yet. But perhaps some day I'll figure it out. In the meantime, these are the people most willing to help me toward my goal.

The artistic Signer: Isn't my universe awesome?!? Come on, let's make it even better! These guys? I work with them because they understand where I'm coming from.

The propagandistic Signer: The more people understand the basic principles of the philosophy, the easier it will be to make my unique status manifest to the Multiverse. Let's begin with "Everyone creates the universe they experience, not only through the medium of but indeed by the action of their own consciousness, which is eternally isolated from any other possible monad of identity..."

The skeptic Signer: Well, I'm not saying they're 100% right; but I am saying that you can't know anything beyond yourself, so it's the only faction that really sounds coherent to me. That's why I joined up. I don't know about me creating the Multiverse, but maybe.

The sociopathic Signer: People are tools for my manipulation. Other Signers commonly have goals that overlap mine; presumably I created them for that specific purpose. In the meantime, remember to smile and have your stories prepped.

Although the faction is designed around the supposition that PC Signers all think they are the ones doing the imagining, consider the possibility of a large group of namer Signers that harbor the secret suspicion that this is not in fact the case, and that instead they have glimpsed evidence that some other Signer is the One!

Signers...well, while i find Solipsism to be rather pointless in real life, you do have to consider the fact that in the Outer Planes things are a bit different. The Center-of-All is, after all, one of the three most basic rules that are considered true in the Multiverse. By having enough people simply think or believe something, that thing happens, sometimes moving entire towns from one plane to another.

As such, the Signer philosophy is not entirely unreasonable. Plus, this is not how they started, originally. After all, the Factol's Manifesto says that their roots were as an organization promoting the concept of "positive over negative thinking", which tried to make people better their lives trough the power of their own minds, with the concept of the One that surely imagines everything in the Multiverse evolved within their philosophy with time.

Also, with all faction philosophies in Planescape there is something else to consider - The factions have a lot of members. Some more, some less. And because of the large amount of belief in these philosophies, a lot of them become true. They are self-affirming. (It's paradoxical, sure, but that's what the Unity-of-Rings states. everything goes in a circle).

Could mortals ascend to Godhood by virtue of their own power and experience before the Believers of the Source were around? Who knows! They can now, so that's a pointless argument. The Godsmen believe people can ascend, because they can. And people can ascend, because the Godsmen believe it.

@Tequila Sunrise - there is no need for "Dustmen babies". Aside from the Harmonium, none of the factions really force their philosophies down people's throats that much, and most people can chose a faction based on what feels right to them, instead of the one their parents are up to.

Also, trust me, people don't really just need to think something is true or is emotionally satisfying. (Nor do they need as much as you think they need to cntinue existing. Smiles, interaction and a stable job are nice, but hardly a necessity from a biological standpoint. People can survive on a lot less.) Maybe in this day and age, on our own planet - sure. But you can't even say that with certainty about people from so close back as 200 years ago, let alone 2000 years ago, and even less so for people who exist in a completely alien universe, who's principals are fundamentally different to our own.

This, I feel, is why I can stomach almost everything in Planescape - the very basis of the setting is that ""Cause > Effect" is not always the case. A lot of times, in fact, things just are. They exist because they are there. As such I am not ready to dismiss any of the faction philosophies as silly or juvenile.

All factions were designed with something imperfect in them, I think they had to be, as far as I know all real world philosophies have their critics. To me Dustmen always seemed like gnostics, trying to find a way to break all attachments from the illusory world. Real Bleakers are like Sartre, they never act unhappy, those who cry are a minority.

Have you read the (canonical) rumor that the faction is trying to demonstrate its power by concentrating their belief to reawaken one of the dead gods on the Astral? If they're even coming close to succeeding a lot of peculiar things might start happening.

...well, the fact that the universe has a lot of inertia when it comes to believing things in to existence. :^)

Serious solipsist theory generally supposes that the mind running the show has to operate according to certain rules -- possibly to make the game interesting, possibly because they are a causeless part of its nature. Creating things from thin air normally involves hefty magic; doing it with raw visualization is presumably something that only an incredibly advanced Signer can do. Even then, they'll likely be starting with simple things; magically potent or belief-reactive substances will be even trickier.

Actually, I know this is not much of a defense (which is good, because it's not supposed to be one), but the fact that the Sign of One is scattered and composed of just small sects and groups each pulling towards their own plans is part of the idea. Their faction has twisted it's original philosophy way too much. They have lost sight of where they started, and after the events of the Faction War they are one of the factions that simply breaks up, because they realized they no longer can even claim to be a unified faction, but a just a collection of cliques and gangs.

If you want to use the Signers in your game, maybe don't use them in the form they are presented during the time period of the published material, but push their philosophy back to their roots, with them striving to promote positive thinking and to make people use their minds to solve their own problems.

You can have all kinds of quest hooks for PCs that way, like the Signers requesting the help of people to go do a big positive act in some place to help the people there, or to stop some Gatetown from shifting.

Or the Signers have a project to imagine something into existence, like, let's say, make trees in Sigil (ala that one NPC in Planescape: Torment), and so they want the PCs to think about spreading trees, and want them to go around recruiting other people to do the same.

This makes it a lot easier to have Signer PCs too, who are not just self-centered assholes, but ones who want to help themselves and others become better trough the power of their minds.