No pressure or anything, but I wanted to make sure you didn't forget to do a 3.5 version of Hashkar using the PSCS system.
Where's my Hashkar that I asked to prove me wrong?
I got bored with the arguement. Then got sick. And then got school to do. Sorry, but other things are more important than continuing an arguement I didn't see as going anywhere.
In other words, you will never accept anything I do as being valid, yes?
In other words, I don't argue with people who refuse to consider another person's points.
If I didn't accept anything you did as valid I wouldn't be helping you with your feats and allowing your letters to be posted on the site.
And bluntly, I deserve an apology for that comment.
Can this thread be closed before it turns into what the other one did?
The entire premise of this thread is to have another go at what was, effectively, one poster's rant against the world, punctuated by occasional rebuttals by others. We don't need more of that.
There's a good 3.0 conversion of Hashkar on Zach Shuford's Kriegstanz site. He's a 21st level expert, and his loopholes are represented by a feat.
No we accept your write ups of rules as perfectly valid. We have no problems with your rules. However the planewalker staff had already decided on another rule set before the arguements on this board was joined. I can't speak for the staff but I don't think they would have posted them on this site if they didn't accpet them as valid.
Planewalker decided to go a different way in that instance. Get over it man. It wasn't a slight to you. It wasn't an insult. It wasn't a degradation of your writing. It was a decition. It was made for reasons already told to you. It was what has been decided and moved on past.
I'm not apologizing for anything so long as none of my questions concerning the rules are addressed. Especially in the face that I did provide answers to questions as I was asked to do. I've quoted the WotC books concerning feats, showed 3.5 revisions and shown clearly that the PSCS does not reflect WotC's take on the d20 system. I find it to be really trite and hypocritical that you're willing to show how wrong my method of presenting the factions are without answering my questions. You want me to apologize for arguing with you to have you convince me your method is the best and you won't produce evidence to the contrary of my views?
You not only bluntly demand an apology, but after saying this:
The truth is that I did consider your points and addressed them with WotC quotations showing the official take on the d20 system. I'm not supposed to consider your view to be refusing consideration of my points?
When the response is something along the lines of: "Oh, we haven't fixed that yet" and you're still producing new material is a cop-out. The sad fact is that you apparantly don't want to hear about any of the faults in the rules created, but you want to argue that a decision was made because it made the most sense. Now maybe I'm missing something here and am completely in the wrong, but I don't see how such a position can be justified by dodging valid arguments and questions to address failings in the system that's deemed the "official" version of PS in 3.5 terms.
Instead, you tell me that it's a done deal and that I should move on. The rules are broken, why should I not point that out and wonder how you're going to fix them while preserving the setting for those who haven't been exposed to Planescape before. If you want new people to play the setting, you should be willing to address issues both pre- and post-FW in order to ensure that new players won't feel that the website caters to an elite group of die-hard fans.
Lament the way the d20 system is going all you want, but it is what it is and catering to it by offering rules that appeal to the powergaming crowd won't preserve Planescape. Neither will providing fluff material encourage role-playing. The only way to do that is through well written rules that show how the planes and factions work in the setting. Feats show that techniques exist that allow players to do things few people can. Commoners, however, gain feats. How does belief manifest itself through feats? For characters you could easily argue that having strong belief in a deity should allow them to at least weild orisons. Why don't the rules illustrate that if belief can manifested through feats? Wouldn't that make religion an important aspect in the game if taking a feat was all that one needed in order to have rudimentary spellcasting ability?
I will be returning your feats to you sans commentary at this moment. You may feel free to revise them as you see fit and resubmit them. I have no problem with posting your material on the site. However I will not be providing suggestions regarding revision.
I am not expecting an apology for your opinion regarding the PSCS. I am not expecting apologies for your passion for the setting. And I am not expecting an apology for your confrontational, aggressive, bullying and insulting methods of arguement (though I probably should).
I would strongly suggest you research methods of persuasive arguement a little more strongly. As an English major (if I've gotten that implication correct from your previous posts), the concept of 'alienating your audience' and how difficult that makes persuading them to your point, should not be new.
However. I will not have words fed to me, and I'm tired of on the one hand being expected to help you develop works that people will like, and on the other hand being expected to take any insult you lodge on my doorstep.
If you dislike us so much - why are you still here?
That's cool, since I've been sitting on my revisions for more than 2 weeks now...
Then what do you want me to apologize for? My attacks were laid against the decision making process and the flaws in the rules as they stand now. I presented evidence to support my claims and then nobody responded to refute my points. If you can show me how your system is superior mechanically to what I've been developing, I will accept it. I've never claimed that what has been done is unacceptable, but rather that it's flawed in design and flawed in preserving the feel of Planescape from one system to the next.
How do you know that I don't view you as condescending and alineating people like me based on how you respond to my arguments?
I never expected any help. I asked if you would. I never told you to do anything regarding my material other that to preserve the sequence of my letters due to the fact that they have a chronological order that at times referrs to earlier essays to prevent confusion in that regard. If you feel that I personally insulted you, then I apologize. I am blunt and I'm very direct because it gets things done. Everyone seems to accept what's done as okay without criticizing anything that could be flawed. I, however, don't buy into anything without questioning it thoroughly and attempting to uncover why something was done in a specific fashion.
If what I write is crap, I want to be told it's crap and why. I don't expect people to pull puches and don't do so in return. My skills won't improve from being told that my work's "okay, but you should..." Such statements don't lead to challenging me to improve my work as to allow it to stand up to rigorous scrutiny. The publishing world is probably worse than I am in this regard, but I don't expect to attract any fans if I write crap and pass it off as gold. I can't fix anything that's flawed if nobody tells me how it's flawed and why it's crap. Why should I not apply the same standards to what's being included in the PSCS?
Hmm, I don't remember ever saying I personally disliked you. I did say I dislike your methods, however. There's a big difference between what I think personally and what I think professionally. I have several friends in my old employment that I enjoyed being around despite the fact that I felt they were horrible employees.
As to the question of why I'm still here, have you ever wondered why I push so hard, or do you think it's just to be rude? Do you honestly think I would be here if I believed you were so set in your views that you wouldn't consider any of my arguments? Why would I waste my time doing something that would be fruitless? If you think I should shut up and go away, tell me.
I have other things I can spend my time on and will let you do whatever you feel best for Planescape if you are as inflexible as you believe me to be.
With the exception of Rhys, I don't believe there's anyone on this forum that I personally dislike. And that's because whenever I begin a debate, Rhys is one of the first to ask for it to be locked out and have my arguments silenced. I've listened to your arguments and pointed out flaws in the mechanics. Do you really think I'm that egotistical and shallow to ignore everything you've said?
I may be hard, but damn if I'm not honest.
Except when it makes people ignore you instead.
So much so that you're proving the point?
If you like.
The only people that I've truly had ignore me were ones who felt that their egos were being threatened.
Wait, wait. Am I missing something? The thread as started just seems like a request for an NPC write-up; there's no need to reopen the debate you folks had. Heck, I'd do the writeup myself if I had the requisite Planes-fu...
Seriously folks, the shouting is uncalled for on either side.
Seriously folks, the shouting is uncalled for on either side.
I'd agree with you, but look at the second part of the title of this thread. It directly points the the old debate. If a mere write up of factol haskar was wanted that would not or rather diplomatically should not have been mentioned.
The challenge was to prove me wrong in my view that the PSCS does not duplicate the factions as presented in 2e in a 3e format. The example of Hashkar was brought up as a lithmus test that the PSCS preserves the feel of the factions from 2e while using 3.5's format. Or, to use the terms that WotC seems fond of when showing a mechanic being tested: the acid test.
Well we are not going to prove you wrong to say that the Factions haven't changed because they have changed. PS3e is set after Factionwar cannonically.
In anycase this has been gone over before.
Well we are not going to prove you wrong to say that the Factions haven't changed because they have changed. PS3e is set after Factionwar cannonically.
In anycase this has been gone over before.
Sounds to me like another cop-out to avoid losing face.
Hashkar's a bad example. The berk is a level 0 sage. That kind of thing didn't even really exist in 2e, but they just did whatever they wanted because the rules were looser. He had no levels in any class, not even a theoretical class like "sage," and yet had every weapon and nonweapon proficiency and knowledge of every field. Not to mention that he either was or wasn't a petitioner of a place that cannot have petitioners. And the fact that he may or may not be completely obliterated.
Hashkar needs to be redone if he's to be statted in 3.5, meaning give him a bunch of expert levels instead of "level 0 sage," and give him a lot of knowledge skills and relevant feats, without breaking the system's rules like Hashkar did in 2e. It'd be interesting to see how the stumpy ol' factol turns out, but it's hardly "the acid test" when you're redesigning his stats from the ground up. There's no comparison except, "does this guy look like a Guvner factol?"
I'm personally disliked. It's nice to be special.
I'd like to clarify things, for the record. I asked for this conversation to end before it got started up because it was never any argument to be silenced in the first place. It took all of three posts for one individual to begin again accusing this community of ignoring his ideas out of some kind of misdirected spite and doing what he hates the most: "putting words in people's mouths".
I would love for there to be a thread about re-working factols to 3.5, with or without certain rules systems, but it seems (as the fourth post in this thread would indicate) that this one "discussion" (word use for politeness' sake) that is continuously resurrected seems incapable of becoming anything beyond insults.
If it makes you feel any better, I'm working on statting Factol Skall, simply because that cutter's the bloodiest of the bloods. I even found his "coldfire" ability in Monsters of Faerun.
Which leads me to a nice, innocent question for all you canny bashers out there:
I'm trying to duplicate Skall's ability to project image into Sigil across planar barriers. I think that if he were an epic mage (he was level 19 in 2e, it'd just take a nudge), epic magic might do the trick. However, I've never had the stomach for ELH. Does anyone who understands that book want to try and design an epic level spell based on some kind of illusion seed that could do the trick?
Which leads me to a nice, innocent question for all you canny bashers out there:
I'm trying to duplicate Skall's ability to project image into Sigil across planar barriers. I think that if he were an epic mage (he was level 19 in 2e, it'd just take a nudge), epic magic might do the trick. However, I've never had the stomach for ELH. Does anyone who understands that book want to try and design an epic level spell based on some kind of illusion seed that could do the trick?
No need. Just say that he can somehow. You don't need to give an explanation for major npcs. Just like some things with haskar's character and most of the other factols and bloods like Fel. Not everything needs to be put into hardcore uses per day rules nor should it be. He can and thats the dark of it that you'll find.
But I think epic magic has the potential to explain it. And it seems like a rather glaring problem. It isn't some pithing ability he can toss around. The ability to see, communicate, and interact in Sigil from a castle in the Negative Energy Plane is something no one else can do (short of Archfiends and the like). I think something better than 2e's "He just can" is warranted. Granted, it was fine, considering how much of Planescape is just left up to mystery, but I think this could easily be explained through use of epic magic, if only I understood epic level rules better.
Hashkar needs to be redone if he's to be statted in 3.5, meaning give him a bunch of expert levels instead of "level 0 sage," and give him a lot of knowledge skills and relevant feats, without breaking the system's rules like Hashkar did in 2e. It'd be interesting to see how the stumpy ol' factol turns out, but it's hardly "the acid test" when you're redesigning his stats from the ground up. There's no comparison except, "does this guy look like a Guvner factol?"
I'm personally disliked. It's nice to be special.
I'd like to clarify things, for the record. I asked for this conversation to end before it got started up because it was never any argument to be silenced in the first place. It took all of three posts for one individual to begin again accusing this community of ignoring his ideas out of some kind of misdirected spite and doing what he hates the most: "putting words in people's mouths".
I would love for there to be a thread about re-working factols to 3.5, with or without certain rules systems, but it seems (as the fourth post in this thread would indicate) that this one "discussion" (word use for politeness' sake) that is continuously resurrected seems incapable of becoming anything beyond insults.
And you wonder why I would feel the way I do? You insult me every chance you get even when I ask legitimate questions concerning mechanics as if I were some sort of rules lawyer for asking the question of the principle for sound mechanics to explain to newcomers how the setting can be expressed in game terms.
You've never discredited my arguments. For that matter, you've never countered them with material from WotC who PW is supposed to be able to use their books as fair game to recreate PS.
My complaints have never been about not using my system. Rather, it's been about the fact that the 2e setting seems to be ignored in more ways than one.
For my part, I gave Skall a demilich's astral projection ability instead of the project image thing.
You know what, I'm closing this thread. I hate to do this but I'm not putting up with all of the same arguing and bickering that keeps coming up. These are dead issues.
#1 - The PSCS is going with the faction system it has in place. The majority of people think it is a good system and we are too far along to fundamentally change it anyway. Minor tweaks, sure. Present comments on how to modify individual portions of the system and we should be taking them into consideration. Debates on fundamentally changing the system are useless at this point. The decision has been made, move on. That's not a cop-out, it's progress. Alternative systems are 100% welcome on the site itself, of course.
#2 - Is Xan confrontational? Sorry, Xan, but you are. Has he been that way for the past several years of involvement with Planewalker? You bet. Is he going to change now? I'd prefer he turned down some of the bitterness and spite in his posts, but honestly, I doubt he will overnight. Does he still produce quality material that we can use on the site? You bet.
So EVERYONE - Xan, Clueless, Rhys, Gerzel, Kaelyn, etc. - deal with the actual, valid questions or don't bother posting. Someone takes an attitude you don't like, fell free to ignore it and the thread will fade off into obscurity. There's some intelligent and useful discussion mixed in these discussions, but it keeps getting buried under the arguing and spite. Bickering over bad attitudes just makes a multi-page thread that shines a bad light on all of Planewalker.
We, the management, will look at some ways to make sure valid comments on our material are properly dealt with and do not fall between the cracks. Also, personal issues can be discussed with us rather than by arguing publicly on the messageboards.
- If you want to talk about portraying the Factols under any new system (the PSCS one or a different one) - start a new thread and keep it nice, but realize any non-PSCS versions won't be in the PSCS for obvious reasons.
- If you want to talk about minor modifications to the existing PSCS faction system, start a new thread and keep it nice.
- If you want to discuss the pros and cons of a different faction system, start a new thread, keep it nice, and realize it won't be used in the PSCS but can be posted to the site.
- If you want to be all confrontational and/or bicker about people's attitudes on this board, take that discussion somewhere else. I'm tired of seeing the same garbage over and over.
Thank you and have a good day,
Ken Marable
Uhm expert levels? Unique character? Npcs don't really need to follow the rules. There are a ton of unkowns with Haskar anyway. Was he a petitioner of Sigil? There are hints at that, and how do you tend to explain that in 2ed.
This question was answered before really. You just didn't pay attention to the thread it seems.