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Where would you end up as a petitioner?

MakThuumNgatha's picture
Submitted by MakThuumNgatha on Thu, 2006-11-23 15:01
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If Planescape was real, what plane would end up in after death?

After much reflection, I realized that I'd probably end up in Gehenna.

Sat, 2007-01-20 19:53
(Reply to #101) #102
Duckluck
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'MakThuumNgatha' wrote:
Duckluck, here is a functional link to the second better test: http://www.pa.msu.edu/~aaronson/alitest/aintro.html

Thanks, this one gave me Neutral Good with a lawful leaning. Much better.

Sat, 2007-01-20 19:53
(Reply to #102) #103
ripvanwormer
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Another key distinction, I think, is that the Gray Waste creates apathy. It does this in order to steal the emotions of others, making itself fat and powerful from the spiritual essence of its victims, and as a weapon against those who would defy its evil, draining away their passion to fight back.

While the Gray Waste creates apathy, this doesn't mean that apathetic souls go to the Gray Waste. Souls travel to the Gray Waste because they are evil but not unbalanced toward Law or Chaos.

Similarly, Pandemonium creates madness, but doesn't attract the souls of all those who are mad. The mentally ill may travel elsewhere, depending on their alignments.

So my analyses are based on alignment first, and "theme" as a secondary consideration. Evil traitors commonly go to Carceri, but good-aligned traitors might not.

Sat, 2007-01-20 20:09
(Reply to #103) #104
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There's a bit of a problem with positioning alignment first; actions determine alignment, not the other way around. Someone who is a traitor is not, by most definitions, good. Therefore their action determines where they go in the afterlife, not some inherent, immutable alignment. That's where D&D has a problem, because it doesn't keep track of actions, only beliefs. I believe that apathetic souls do go to the Gray Waste because they're apathetic, not because they're balanced between good and evil. A plane is a container for a specific belief-action-consequence system, what you referred to as a theme, and petitioners are formed from the souls of people who fit into that container.

Sat, 2007-01-20 20:17
#105
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You can be good and a traitor easilly. Trechery and deception are chaotic acts, not evil ones. Spreading mallicious lies about a friend so you can take his house when he's banished is evil, but working your way into the trust of a cruel despot and then deposing him when you get the chance is not.

Sat, 2007-01-20 20:22
(Reply to #105) #106
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'Duckluck' wrote:
First of a Rip's right, procrastination has nothing to do with passion or lack there of.
'MakThuumNgatha' wrote:
I agree with Rip in that procrastination is a conflict of passions.
Glad to see you guys are in complete agreement. Mak, if you want people to interpret their afterlife through the prism of College Philosophy 101, you should probably say so in the OP. You may feel hard-done by the D&D alignment system, but I think it's a decent, though distorted, reflection and may be accurate. Of course I can't know that for sure, even about myself (especially about myself!), but if you prefer try viewing it through the prism of the Palladium alignment profiles, which are closer to reality than the artificially-symmetrical Moorcockian-Gygaxian alignment axis. As for myself, I'll stick to analyzing it by comparing myself and others to the petitioners on each plane.

Sat, 2007-01-20 20:24
(Reply to #106) #107
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'Krypter' wrote:
There's a bit of a problem with positioning alignment first; actions determine alignment, not the other way around.

Perhaps I should have said that I was positioning those actions that relate to alignment first, and those actions that are not related strictly to alignment second.

"Apathy" isn't inherently related to any alignment, and therefore it gains secondary consideration. Something like "murder of innocents" is strongly aligned with Evil, and therefore gets primary consideration. If you're apathetic while peeling the flesh off of children you've abducted, this might be a stronger reason for pushing a soul into the Waste rather than Gehenna, but if you're apathetic while feeding the poor (for example, most of the Bleak Cabal), you're definitely not going to go to the Gray Waste for it.

Quote:
Someone who is a traitor is not, by most definitions, good.

No? So, for example, say you're a whistle-blower for a company that's lying to its customers. You've betrayed your company, but few would call it evil. Or say a knight sworn to the service of an unjust king helps his noble son ascend to the throne. Definitely non-evil treachery.

Sat, 2007-01-20 20:56
(Reply to #107) #108
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'ripvanwormer' wrote:
Perhaps I should have said that I was positioning those actions that relate to alignment first, and those actions that are not related strictly to alignment second.
This I would agree with, but of course there's still the delicate matter of defining what is and isn't related to alignment. You mention apathy not being related to alignment. What if someone just stood by and watched their friend being murdered? Or only defended them half-heartedly?

Your baseline system of morality will determine what is and isn't related to morality, and in some systems apathy may indeed be a great evil. I assume we're standing on a roughly similar western Judeo-Christian baseline, but I could be wrong (especially in Mak's case).

Quote:
If you're apathetic while peeling the flesh off of children you've abducted, this might be a stronger reason for pushing a soul into the Waste rather than Gehenna
Yick. You could also argue it in reverse, because the crime of killing children is much worse than apathy.

Quote:
No? So, for example, say you're a whistle-blower for a company that's lying to its customers. You've betrayed your company, but few would call it evil. Or say a knight sworn to the service of an unjust king helps his noble son ascend to the throne. Definitely non-evil treachery.
In the real world whistleblowers are usually the first to be ostracized, punished and fired, implying some sort of moral approbation there. "Say it ain't so, Serpico." Yes, whistleblowers are often considered evil. Overthrowing an unjust king? It's still disloyalty, and some people prize their definition of loyalty more than your definition of injustice, just as some people think that freeedom is a greater virtue than equality. It's also a rather vague example, but a good example of a moral dilemma. How is the king overthrown? By poisoning? Bloodless coup? Bloody palace revolution and purges? But I'm nitpicking.

I prefer to judge to good or evil of an action by the severity of the action as well as the consequences and the motivating impulse. Good people can commit crimes that are beneficial, but that would have to be judged on a case-by-case basis.

Anyways, this has turned into an almighty alignment debate, which was not my intention to start with a throwaway comment, so I think I'll bow out now. At least I'm pretty sure where Philosophy majors and forum posters will end up: the Hall of Records under the Guvners.

Sat, 2007-01-20 21:09
#109
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Whistleblowers are not evil! They get fired and ostracised because they hurt the company, and because they are seen by many as being anti-authoritarian, not because of lax morals. In point of fact, the knowledge that they will lose their jobs when the truth comes out makes the deed of the whistleblower even more noble. As I said before, treachery is a chaotic act, with strong implications, but there is nothing inherently evil about it.

Sat, 2007-01-20 21:31
(Reply to #109) #110
ripvanwormer
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'Krypter' wrote:
This I would agree with, but of course there's still the delicate matter of defining what is and isn't related to alignment. You mention apathy not being related to alignment. What if someone just stood by and watched their friend being murdered? Or only defended them half-heartedly?

You're confusing a specific situation with a general definition. Your example would be like comparing the general use of forks to a person who uses a fork to stab his friend in the eye, and determining that forks are therefore evil.

Quote:
Yes, whistleblowers are often considered evil.

Sure, no one likes to be betrayed, but the feelings of those who are betrayed need not be taken into account as the sole determinant. If the person is doing good (helping the helpless, ending the tyranny of the malevolent), the act is good - although it is surely chaotic as well.

Quote:
It's still disloyalty, and some people prize their definition of loyalty more than your definition of injustice

They do indeed. Such people are considered lawful neutral, in D&D terms.

Quote:
I prefer to judge the good or evil of an action by the severity of the action as well as the consequences and the motivating impulse.

So does everybody. That's what I was doing as well.

Sat, 2007-01-20 22:03
#111
MakThuumNgatha
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Krypter, I really don't care how people respond to the OP question. I pointed out my original intentions because YOU told ME how I should respond to my own question. I don't feel hard-done for being considered evil in DnD terms, I accept it as a point of curiosity. I was largely caught off guard by having this referred to as reprehensible. I think this stems from the term "good" having both evaluative and moral conotations which lead the moral opposite of good, "evil", to be sometimes associated with "bad" (the evaluative opposite of "good").

Elethius, over the years I have written so many papers on Nietzsche that I have a professor who gestures at me whenever he mentions Nietzsche; so I'm going to try to avoid going off on a rant here. My morality is closer to Nietzsche than anyone elses, but I am far from a disciple (but paradoxically, this makes me a closer follower of Nietzsche than someone who does follow him entirely). Despite how you may have interpreted my previous response I am not at all judgemental of the history of morality (my other major is anthropology and I focus on systems of morality); I just feel that it would be irrational for me to entirely adhere to any one system. Nietzsche's views on morality are not at all limited to the "Genalogy of Morals" and this work is lacking in prescriptive statements (which are prinicipally found in "Thus Spake Zarathustra"). To begin to have a grasp on Nietzsche's moral views, you should read (in this order): "The Gay Science", "Thus Spake Zarathustra", "Beyond Good and Evil", and "The Genealogy of Morals"; and afterthis re-read "Thus Spake Zarathustra." It would also help to have familiarity with "Twilight of the Idols" and "Will to Power."

I'm going to try to avoid posting anything else longer than a paragraph until I get some sleep.

Sun, 2007-01-21 00:45
(Reply to #111) #112
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Be nice folks... your mod's from the Spire and she likes to keep an even keel on her ship. Eye-wink (yarrrr.)

And yes, that means I put myself on the Outlands for this quiz. Smiling

Sun, 2007-01-21 03:12
#113
ripvanwormer
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I actually voted for Limbo and argued for Pandemonium. How's that for inconsistent?

Sun, 2007-01-21 03:34
#114
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According to that 'better' test, I come out as true neutral. I'm okay with that, as it's the alignment I claim for myself about half the time.

__________________

Pants of the North!

Sun, 2007-01-21 11:38
(Reply to #114) #115
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'MakThuumNgatha' wrote:
Krypter, I really don't care how people respond to the OP question. I pointed out my original intentions because YOU told ME how I should respond to my own question.
That was not my intention, and if that's how it was interpreted then I apologize. You stated that the D&D alignment system was distorting your true alignment, so I was trying to be helpful by suggesting you bypass the distortion and simply compare yourself to the petitioners on each plane.

Sun, 2007-01-21 12:06
(Reply to #115) #116
MakThuumNgatha
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Krypter, I never said that. From the start of the exchange I acknowledged that my views would be considered between true neutral and chaotic evil through the alignment system. This exchange is being clouded by miscommunication and emotion, and is going nowhere. It ends here.

Fri, 2007-01-26 17:34
(Reply to #116) #117
Vaevictis Asmadi
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'MakThuumNgatha' wrote:
I agree with Rip in that procrastination is a conflict of passions. Whether this is because your passion for what you "should be" doing is set aside due to a conflicting passion for something else, or the passion for multiple conflicting things causes you to delay the moment of choice.

Definately. I procrastinate but I'm not apathetic. I have very strong passions. But they clash badly with my extreme anxiety and (comparatively weak) pessimism, so usually I don't get anything done.

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