What's so good about positive energy?

46 posts / 0 new
Last post
Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
What's so good about positive energy?

Here’s something that’s been irritating me for years – Why is negative energy “evil” and positive energy “good”?

They’re both inner planes, basic building blocks of reality, so as far as I can tell they’re both part of the natural order but negative energy is constantly referred to as “unnatural”. Why should this differentiation be made here rather than with fire and air or water and earth or opposite polarities on a magnet?

Also- positive energy kills you! We just don’t usually have a potent enough source of it to do so but if you 'overload' you die all the same. I’m developing an NPC around this at the moment and he’s got some fairly nasty things to say about the stuff.

For that matter, what’s so unnatural about undead that rise spontaneously? Why are they automatically evil? I know that it makes things easier for DM’s to have some creatures that attack on sight anything that lives (and is sentient and roughly PC shaped) but it doesn’t seem to logically follow. If anything they should be naturally neutral albeit susceptible to influence- which the lower outer planes (the ones to do with alignment) would be happy to provide.

Oh, while I’m at it, vermin (Insects and arachnids) being considered mindless and almost evil – you need to be non-good to take prestige classes associated with them irritates me too. I have pet scorpions so does that make me more evil than someone who keeps fish?

Ok, rant finished, comments welcome.

By the way, is the name Azriael already taken in the planescape setting, I’m thinking of giving it to the NPC I mentioned and wanted to check first.

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

Iavas's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-07-12
What's so good about positive energy?

I see where you're coming from.

The two Energy Planes are neutral, just like all the other Inner Planes. However, one is more appealing to the mortal folks than the other because of it's potential.

The Positive Energy Plane is the source of new life, rather than the end of it. It also fuels spells and powers that create or support life. It's hard not to have a better opinion of the stuff that saved your son from the dead book than the stuff that brought to unlife the bodak that put him there.

The Negative Energy Plane, however, saps life. It is the end of creation, and only appealing to masochistic or pessimistic berks like Dustmen and Doomguards. The only type of life it fuels is unlife, which is an abomination and perversion of life. Mindless undead like zombies and skeletons are more like constructs, and thus neutral, but are usually created by evil casters for evil purposes. Most good guys just don't care for the stuff. Other undead, such as the previously mentioned bodak, are naturally evil. Why? Because they fall outside of the natural order and wrack the previously living souls of the deceased with constant sorrow and pain, causing irreversible spiritual trauma that fosters evil.

So although the two planes themselves are neutral, their uses and their [few] inhabitants are swayed toward one side or the other.

There's a similar situation going on with water and fire, although to a lesser degree. Water and fire are both useful to the cosmos. They can also support life and take it away.

You can drown in water, you can drink too much of it, and entire nations can be swept away by enough of it. However, it is also a necessary component of life.

Fire burns. It also grants heat in the cold and light in the darkness.

Why is it, then, that people fear fire but not water? Even those that live with the sea say the water supports life but it's the 'storm' that kills. People use fire, candles and campfires and the like, but they use it sparingly and with much care. They fear it because it can easily get out of control.

Thus, we see the Plane of Fire as hellish but the Plane of Water as serine. Thus, the majority of the main inhabitents of Fire are evil (Efreet, Salamanders, etc.) while Water retains a neutral appearance (Marids, tritons, etc.). Again, the situation isn't as black and white as that with the energy planes, but it's still there.

In regards to vermin, I completely agree with you. I have always disagreed with the non-good or evil requirements for vermin related prestige classes such as those in Savage Species and Book of Vile Darkness (respectively). Thankfully, most vermin monsters are neutral, just like animals. They're no more evil for eating a field of crops or poisoning a person than is a rabbit or a platypus (yes, that's the only mammal with poison that I could come up with off the top of my head). I guess, because most people have a natural aversion to bugs, that belief is so widespread that vermin deities usually end up being evil. That would be the only way I can see that working. It still doesn't explain the non clerical vermin prestige classes having to be evil, but perhaps the societies that train them are evil. Who knows?

Finally, regards to the name Azriael, I have no idea.

The End. Smiling

Jack of tears's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-12-13
re

Another means by which to think of these might be Life and anti-life. The possitive energy plane empowers living beings, it spawns new life and heals illness. (though too much of it causes mutations, such as cancer and Mummy rot is in fact possitive energy poisoning) Negative energy destroys. It is a consuming essence that drains the very spark of life from all things.

Each is necessary because the polar opposites prevent either one from getting out of hand. Without anti-life creation would spread beyond control, nothing would ever be destroyed. Without life .. well, we know where that is going.

I think the reason undead are naturally "evil" is because they are infused with anti-life and as such they are naturally drawn to causing destruction. Each of the planes has a goal, the goal of the Negative energy plane is to see all creation unmade - for no other reason than such is its nature. Undead, in a way, are proxies of that force, serving the ultimate goal. Intelligent undead feel that draw, but are capable of ignoring it to some extent. (though they are all tainted by it in some way - as reflected by their various abilities)

In fact, all the inner planes should be depicted as having similar goals. Fire wants to burn, to consume - that is what it does. The elemental plane of fire and its denizens have one over arching goal - to consume everything. Without each of those planes striving against one another, creation would crumble in upon itself.

As to the question about vermin and those who deal with them; the reason originates from the fact that classically these creatures are depicted as "servants of darkness". Realistically, all animals are neutral (well, aside from perhaps cats, which torment their food before consuming it. I love cats, but one must admit they're not nice animals) but from a narative perspective the use of these creatures as symbols has been quite effective.

Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
What's so good about positive energy?

Just had a quick thought about life without negative energy - who's read Reaper Man by Terry Pratchett?
btw I've drawn up the fluff around that character I was thinking of and am posting him in the Festhall

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

Hymneth's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-08-01
What's so good about positive energy?

"What can the harvest hope for, if not for the care of the reaper man?" Laughing out loud

Seriously though, that is a good point. Life without death is as scary a thought as no life at all. What happens to the terminally sick man who is eaten away with disease (which is just another form of life) if he cannot die? He just suffers eternally. The same goes for the severely injured. They might eventually heal, but they'll be in agony for a very long time, with no hope of the release that death might offer. Or people that accidentally get buried alive, or fall into an active volcano. Not to mention that people are just much more likely to do stupid things if they know there are no consequenses and no chance of death.

I personally see nothing evil about negativity. It's dangerous, but no more so than any of the other inner planes. They're all deathtraps unless you're prepared. Because of this, I've always been a subscriber to the thought that all mindless undead should be neutral, even if used for evil ends, and that most thinking undead should have the variance of alignment available to the truly living, but with an ingrained tendancy towards evil in most situations. That's how I've always portrayed them as a DM, but that's just my 2cp

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
What's so good about positive energy?

'Azriael' wrote:
Here’s something that’s been irritating me for years – Why is negative energy “evil” and positive energy “good”?
.... because folks like to jump to that conclusion? I don't know. Neither plane is innately *any* moral point of view. That's why they're *innter* planes, not outer.

Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
What's so good about positive energy?

Fair point but that was pretty much my contention. The problem as I see it is that basically all available material pre-supposes that negative energy is evil and un-natural. I mean for ****'s sake what's more natural than death?
If people need evidence that this is the viewpoint that's getting put across -
1. Read Libris Mortis
2. Look at the special abilities of good v evil outsiders, it's a pretty clear split. I'm pretty sure I've even seen a good outsider referred to as being 'composed of positive energy' somewhere.

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

Bob the Efreet's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
What's so good about positive energy?

'Azriael' wrote:
Here’s something that’s been irritating me for years – Why is negative energy “evil” and positive energy “good”?

Clueless primes.

'Iavas' wrote:
The only type of life it fuels is unlife, which is an abomination and perversion of life.

Actually, life is a perversion and unnatural reversal of unlife. Your sentiments are a conceit of the living.

__________________

Pants of the North!

Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
What's so good about positive energy?

Quote:
Clueless primes.

um.. did you read what I wrote after that? Puzzled
You've got to admit that that is the perception that gets out more

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

Shemeska the Marauder's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-04-26
What's so good about positive energy?

'Azriael' wrote:
Fair point but that was pretty much my contention. The problem as I see it is that basically all available material pre-supposes that negative energy is evil and un-natural. I mean for ****'s sake what's more natural than death? If people need evidence that this is the viewpoint that's getting put across - 1. Read Libris Mortis 2. Look at the special abilities of good v evil outsiders, it's a pretty clear split. I'm pretty sure I've even seen a good outsider referred to as being 'composed of positive energy' somewhere.

The positive and negative energy planes, and their respective energies are neutral and have always been so.

It just happens to be that because most 'living' things in the multiverse are empowered by positive energy, that any notion of good or bad gets associated with them. To a living being based on negative energy, like a Trilloch, positive energy is painful and destructive, and a society of trillochs would likewise label it as evil from their perspective. But in terms of objective morality, neither + or - energy is evil. At all.

In a world where most things were based on negative energy, you'd likely see Celestials with negative energy abilities so they could easily heal benevolent beings, and Fiends with positive energy abilities to cause harm to the majority when they could. That one or the other has + or - energy based abilities has nothing to do with any innate good or evil possessed by those energies, but purely to do with the proportion of beings in the multiverse based on one or the other, and the reaction those energies cause in them, and how they can be used to various ends.

And Libris Morthis aka the Book of Bad Latin is probably the worst example to use for handling undead despite being nominally written about them. It's shallow, superficial, and invents a lot of false associations between evil and negative energy that aren't logical or even in agreement with the established material it's ostensibly drawing on as sources. (And don't get me started on the 'fiend lich' from LM...)

Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
What's so good about positive energy?

Just to clarify as people seem to be mis-interpreting what I've said: When I use quotation marks around "evil" I'm trying to signify a perception or label rather than saying that this is what negative energy is in objective terms. I thought that I'd clarified that in my later statements but maybe not Sad .
Possibly this isn't the best way to do this but it seemed easier than writing "Perception of evil as presented in official published material that I've read" each time.

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

eldersphinx's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-12-06
What's so good about positive energy?

Negative energy is 'evil' in much the same way that antimatter in a science-fiction universe is 'evil'.

By itself, it's just there. But in a universe where positive energy (or normal matter) is ubiquitous and the preeminent building block for stable existence, it's unusual and dangerous. It's going to likely pool as a toxic substance, rather than safely dispersing into the surrounding environment. And any being which depends on it for their continued survival and selfishly spreads it among normal life is probably going to qualify as 'evil' just based on the ethics of the situation.

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
What's so good about positive energy?

I'm getting the feelign that the prevaling opinion here regarding the 'official' view is... They were smoking something that day. Eye-wink

I need to take a few moments sometime to look through the backnotes and see if I can tell at what point "merely icky" became synonmous with "ultimate evil".

Bran Dawri's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-07-30
What's so good about positive energy?

'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
Clueless primes.

You just said the same thing twice Sticking out tongue .

Anyway, if you like it better, you could treat positive and negative energy as something more akin to positive and negative electricity in your campaign, and have the mindless undead be no more than deposits of negativity "ions".

As opposites attract, they're naturally drawn to normal living being (who happen to be filled with positive "ions"), and the negative ions will compel the zombie to tear the living creature apart trying to bring the two opposites in contact to achieve a state of neutrality. Of course, it never works that way, but with no functioning brain, the zombie never learns, and never adapts.

Same effect as evil undead (and many regular living beings will still regard undead as evil, because, well, they tend to be killed by them), simply different esthetics.

Bob the Efreet's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
What's so good about positive energy?

'Azriael' wrote:
Just to clarify as people seem to be mis-interpreting what I've said: When I use quotation marks around "evil" I'm trying to signify a perception or label rather than saying that this is what negative energy is in objective terms. I thought that I'd clarified that in my later statements but maybe not Sad . Possibly this isn't the best way to do this but it seemed easier than writing "Perception of evil as presented in official published material that I've read" each time.

I assure you that WotC does not employ a single writer who used to live on the Outer Planes. Thus, my comment of clueless primes regarding the reasoning behind the scenario still stands.

__________________

Pants of the North!

Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
What's so good about positive energy?

'Bran Dawri'][QUOTE wrote:

As opposites attract, they're naturally drawn to normal living being (who happen to be filled with positive "ions"), and the negative ions will compel the zombie to tear the living creature apart trying to bring the two opposites in contact to achieve a state of neutrality. Of course, it never works that way, but with no functioning brain, the zombie never learns, and never adapts.

I thought of that and while it was kind of appealing wouldn't it mean that said zombie would be more likely to attack a large tree rather than a PC and spend a fair amount of it's existence seeking and destroying lichen?

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

nick012000's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-19
What's so good about positive energy?

Heh. That would be an amusing sight.

Don't uncontrolled zombies go on murderous rampages? Who said said rampages would have to be against people? Eye-wink

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
What's so good about positive energy?

'eldersphinx' wrote:
And any being which depends on it for their continued survival and selfishly spreads it among normal life is probably going to qualify as 'evil' just based on the ethics of the situation.

Oh certainly - but at that point it's the being not the object he's using to cause a ruckus that's the evil part of the equation.

Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
What's so good about positive energy?

Hmmm, thinking about the Judeo/Christian history/folklore, would the “Angel of death” who killed the firstborn of Egypt in game mechanics terms have been using negative energy? Seems consistent with how it is described and I could see Celestials (especially Archons) using this type of energy in a punitory fashion towards evil doers- sort of a “The wages of sin are death” approach.

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
What's so good about positive energy?

Hm.... yeah. Most likely.

simmo's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-11
What's so good about positive energy?

'nick012000' wrote:
Don't uncontrolled zombies go on murderous rampages? Who said said rampages would have to be against people? Eye-wink

Zombie orientation videos focus on the need to go after people. In particular they recommend the culinery delights of the brain.

Lichens and trees do not rate very highly as objects that can potentially be destroyed. Doors and boarded up windows are higher up on the list of things to smash. Particularly if there are delicious brains being offered by screaming people on the other side.

420
420's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-06-27
What's so good about positive energy?

OK, last time I brought up the Book of Vile Darkness on the D&D forums I got chewed out by a bunch of angry RPGers because they insisted it wasn't "cannon". However, the title of the book is just too cool not to bring up!

Quote:
BoVD pg. 8 Animating the Dead or Creating Undead Unliving corpses -- corrupt mockeries of life and purity -- are inherently evil. Creating them is one of the most heinous crimes against the world that a character can commit. Even if they are commanded to do something good, undead invariably bring negative energy into the world, which makes it a darker and more evil place.

So there you go. Good and evil are relative, since humans are living beings, we define "good" as anything that creates life (which accounts for the current over population problem) and anything that destroys, consumes or otherwise opposes life is defined as "evil".

However, in these enlightened times, many of us have come to the conclusion that death is a natural part of life and that life without death would be a curse too horrible for any human to bear.

'Azriael' wrote:
Oh, while I’m at it, vermin (Insects and arachnids) being considered mindless and almost evil – you need to be non-good to take prestige classes associated with them irritates me too. I have pet scorpions so does that make me more evil than someone who keeps fish?
Yes, yes it does, and it makes both of you more evil than someone that owns a mammal! Just kidding, you are right, it doesn't make any sense that you have to be evil to hang out with mindless neutral creatures. Though, enslaving them to do your bidding is a different story.

-420

eldersphinx's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-12-06
What's so good about positive energy?

'420' wrote:
'Azriael' wrote:
Oh, while I’m at it, vermin (Insects and arachnids) being considered mindless and almost evil – you need to be non-good to take prestige classes associated with them irritates me too. I have pet scorpions so does that make me more evil than someone who keeps fish?
Yes, yes it does, and it makes both of you more evil than someone that owns a mammal! Just kidding, you are right, it doesn't make any sense that you have to be evil to hang out with mindless neutral creatures. Though, enslaving them to do your bidding is a different story.

-420


Prestige classes associated with insects and arachnids are generally evil not so much because of the associated creature, but because of the strong links to poison, entrapment and similar that are often class ability features. And poison is very strongly connected to evil in D&D, with arguably good reason.

Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
What's so good about positive energy?

'eldersphinx' wrote:
Prestige classes associated with insects and arachnids are generally evil not so much because of the associated creature, but because of the strong links to poison, entrapment and similar that are often class ability features. And poison is very strongly connected to evil in D&D, with arguably good reason.
Unless of course you don’t call it a poison, then it’s positively holy and good, just ask BoED! Golden Ice [Sigh] seriously Puzzled

Oh and if you end up in Australia watch out for those EVIL Platypi
:shock: they're almost as bad as the drop-bears.

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

Iavas's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-07-12
What's so good about positive energy?

So, could this be a poll? It's always easiest to resolve planar issues by seeing what the majority believes. In this case, even if the majority isn't correct, they will be. Belief in the planes and all...

I believe that the energy planes are not innately good, evil, lawful, or chaotic. Such concepts do not apply to the inner planes.
I believe that mindless undead are also neutral, even if commanded to go kill babies or destroy perfectly good boarded up windows. Why? Because they're mindless and don't know any better, therefore cannot be blamed for their decisions, or rather lack thereof. Most sentient undead, such as vampires or bodaks, are inherently evil because they're just so pissed about being undead monstrosities (in most people's eyes, probably including their own) that they have an irresistable urge to share that with everyone else.
I also believe, contrary to 3e, that spells or abilities using negative energy are no more evil than those using positive energy. The question is how they are used. Because certain spells have more limited uses than others, they will be more biased toward influencing the caster toward a certain alignment, but it would still be the caster's alignment that matters (or is changed) through the act, not the spell's.
I believe that fiends have no greater innate tie to the negative plane than celestials to the positive. The thing is that one group of exemplars, over millennia of evolution, has focused on using a certain energy (because it better serves their purposes). This is similar to how some exemplars are immune to fire while others to poison and others till to electricity.
Finally, I believe that all aspects of nature, ranging from mindless vermin to platypus poison are true neutral. Aspects of Outer Planar nature, however, such as viper trees, are naturally aligned to their plane of origin.
And to end it all, I believe that despite all dangers, koalas are cute. I'm sorry, I can't help it.

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
What's so good about positive energy?

'420' wrote:
Quote:
BoVD pg. 8 Animating the Dead or Creating Undead Unliving corpses -- corrupt mockeries of life and purity -- are inherently evil. Creating them is one of the most heinous crimes against the world that a character can commit. Even if they are commanded to do something good, undead invariably bring negative energy into the world, which makes it a darker and more evil place.

So there you go. Good and evil are relative, since humans are living beings, we define "good" as anything that creates life (which accounts for the current over population problem) and anything that destroys, consumes or otherwise opposes life is defined as "evil".

So - that proves the act of making undead is evil. Ok. Cool. I don't think anyone was arguing about that. Were you trying to then prove in addition that negative energy is in and of itself evil because it is used in this process?

Quote:
So, could this be a poll? It's always easiest to resolve planar issues by seeing what the majority believes. In this case, even if the majority isn't correct, they will be. Belief in the planes and all...

I'm curious. IS there any *actual* debate on the alignment of the energy planes? I've not seen a single person say "they're good/evil". Not even the original poster was anything but a rant about the misperception... it looks like there *isn't* a misperception on these forums. Hence why my posts approached it as an answer to the implied question of WhereTF people got the idea.

It honestly looks like there's more debate on the inherent good/evil/nuetrality of undead existance.
(Wow - poor Dusties. Eye-wink )

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
What's so good about positive energy?

'Azriael' wrote:
'eldersphinx' wrote:
Prestige classes associated with insects and arachnids are generally evil not so much because of the associated creature, but because of the strong links to poison, entrapment and similar that are often class ability features. And poison is very strongly connected to evil in D&D, with arguably good reason.
Unless of course you don’t call it a poison, then it’s positively holy and good, just ask BoED! Golden Ice [Sigh] seriously Puzzled
Yes. Iknow. "Here. Let me put you in neverending Torment and PAIN and AGONY and TORTURE... until You agree that I am Right and You are Wrong... It's not an Evil act - You're Evil so torturing you until you break is OK. You're the bad guy so I can do whatever I Want." ... *BOGGLE*

... as of late recent alignment orriented products have taken a view of morality that is at best questionable and at worst make me question if they even know what morality actually *is*.

420
420's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-06-27
What's so good about positive energy?

'Clueless' wrote:
'420' wrote:
Quote:
BoVD pg. 8 Animating the Dead or Creating Undead Unliving corpses -- corrupt mockeries of life and purity -- are inherently evil. Creating them is one of the most heinous crimes against the world that a character can commit. Even if they are commanded to do something good, undead invariably bring negative energy into the world, which makes it a darker and more evil place.

So there you go. Good and evil are relative, since humans are living beings, we define "good" as anything that creates life (which accounts for the current over population problem) and anything that destroys, consumes or otherwise opposes life is defined as "evil".

So - that proves the act of making undead is evil. Ok. Cool. I don't think anyone was arguing about that. Were you trying to then prove in addition that negative energy is in and of itself evil because it is used in this process?

Actually I was refering to the second sentence about how bringing negative energy into the world "makes it a darker and more evil place". The author seems to imply that negative energy is inherently evil.

I don't necessarily agree but it is an example of how D&D (WotC) has applied an evil trait to negative energy and hence the Negative Energy Plane.

-420

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
What's so good about positive energy?

The Negative Energy Plane is clearly labeled as having no alignment trait. The plane is the source of death and decay, which is natural and necessary for the Material Plane.

While not all undead are evil even in version 3.5 (ghosts, for example, can be any alignment), most forms of undead are evil in nature and in fact tied to fiends and the lower planes. This doesn't mean that their power source is evil any more than the fact that fiends use swords means swords are evil.

Bringing more negative energy into the world could conceivably be seen as evil, however, as it means the balance between life and death is altered to an unnatural extent. Bringing more positive energy into the world might be just as evil, as it would cause pestilence and overpopulation.

420
420's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-06-27
What's so good about positive energy?

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
Bringing more positive energy into the world might be just as evil, as it would cause pestilence and overpopulation.
Which is our current plight in the real world it would seem. "Too much of a good thing..." and all that.

I think a more accurate word to describe the Energy Planes is "hostile". Both the Negative Energy and Positive Energy Planes are hostile to life. They lack air and sustenance and they both constantly bombard visitors with harmful radiation.

-420

eldersphinx's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-12-06
What's so good about positive energy?

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
Bringing more negative energy into the world could conceivably be seen as evil, however, as it means the balance between life and death is altered to an unnatural extent. Bringing more positive energy into the world might be just as evil, as it would cause pestilence and overpopulation.
Motives and ethics aside, I think that a free source of positive energy released into the Prime would have less drastic and noticeable consequences than a similar source of negative energy. The negative energy is concentrated death, entropy and unmaking of existence - everything around it (and I do mean everything - sapient beings, animals, plants, even chunks of environment, to the extent they can - the sentience of the latter may be limited, but when you're dealing with raw Negative Energy they'll take notice, and invoke the power bound up in their existence to respond) is going to do whatever it can to avoid accepting the stuff. Anything actually forced to accept the negative energy is going to be in very bad shape thereafter.

The positive energy, by consequence, is going to be considered a Good Thing at first, with everything in the vicinity trying to grab their share of it - and probably apportioning it out in non-lethal consequences as a result. It's only if one being gets too much of the positive energy flow, or if the energy source is too large and persistent for the environment to handle, that the balance of things is upset. Or, in the long term, if the changes caused by the positive energy source puts beings elsewhere at a disadvantage.

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
What's so good about positive energy?

There's an ambient (and generally equal) amount of positive and negative in the world anyway. In much the same way as there's the amount of fire/water/air/earth throughout the world.

Honestly I'd see a concentration negative making plants wilt and undead rise... but alternatively a comparative concentration of positive resulting in unexplained burns, water heating up and causing bad effects on the wildlife, deaths of unborn (too much life-energy causing them to 'pop'), and problems with poltergeist-like effects etc. In either case it's going to have to be sizable concetrations to be even felt otherwise it'll disipate too quickly.

Jem
Jem's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
What's so good about positive energy?

I enjoy these philosophical considerations and agree with the consensus view here that negative energy is not inherently evil; it's a necessary part of nature. Most undead are evil simply because of the spirits that animate them; there is a kind of "undead" called the deathless (BoED, IIRC, though I gather that BoED and BoVD are not highly-regarded supplements) which is a good soul driven to return in various forms due to some great need. It's a template, I think. Admittedly, it's powered by positive energy, but it shows that what we normally call undead don't have to be evil.

I would rather like to see some good deities employing negative energy and evil deities employing positive energy to counter the trend in supplements to associate the two, when Inner Planar elemental materials are not supposed to be aligned. Some possibilities:

Azrael, or Azra'il as it's often transliterated, was the Angel of Death, and could easily be a good god of Death in Planescape; his portfolio would include death, judgment, safe travel, and negative energy. Travel and judgment would arise from his role judging and escorting the souls of the dead (perhaps he decides which god of his pantheon gets a dead believer who wasn't particularly dedicated to any of them). His clerics would be assigned missions to assassinate evildoers, to bring endings to whole eras or civilizations, or to defend good necromancers, especially from evil deities like Nerull. For a unique niche in a Planescape game, perhaps he has the ability to allow a petitioner to safely leave his home plane for a limited time, pledging that if the petitioner dies off-plane his essence is being watched and will be safely retrieved.

An evil goddess of beautiful temptations, full of illusion and tricks. She offers many gifts -- real, not glamour, some of them even living creatures -- but all of them have a hook in them somewhere. Her worshipers don't care, and indulge themselves with sensations of all kinds, falling deeper into her clutches. She thinks other evil gods are silly. Why conquer and enslave and kill when you can make them beg to come to you?

A glutton god, a deity of greed and consumption. He demands that his followers make and acquire more and more goods, feast themselves to bursting on the material world, drink from the well of life until they explode. His priests can pull all kinds of things from the Positive Energy Plane, free of charge, no really, here you go, all we ask is that you really *use* it, don't just let it sit there. We can make more!

And one more good god: his portfolio includes darkness, silence, stillness, and peaceful rest. He has quite a few wizard/clerics with affinities for abjurations, especially cold; winter is a minor part of his portfolio, the time when the land sleeps quietly for a while so that it may renew itself come spring. A recluse god, this one, strongly concerned with defense. Those who want only to be left in peace pray to this god, and his clerics may be sent to answer.

Azriael's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-08-07
What's so good about positive energy?

'Jem' wrote:
Most undead are evil simply because of the spirits that animate them; there is a kind of "undead" called the deathless (BoED, IIRC, though I gather that BoED and BoVD are not highly-regarded supplements) which is a good soul driven to return in various forms due to some great need. It's a template, I think. Admittedly, it's powered by positive energy, but it shows that what we normally call undead don't have to be evil.
Kind of backs up my point that current releases seem to be pushing the “Positive = Good/Negative = Evil” Wagon.

'Jem' wrote:
I would rather like to see some good deities employing negative energy and evil deities employing positive energy to counter the trend in supplements to associate the two, when Inner Planar elemental materials are not supposed to be aligned.
Me too, one of the reasons I posted this thread was to test what others were thinking and I was hoping it would inspire people generate some material which counters the current trend.

'Jem' wrote:
Azrael, or Azra'il as it's often transliterated, was the Angel of Death, and could easily be a good god of Death in Planescape
Yeah it’s spelt differently in every book I find it. There’s already members of the Celestial Hebdomad who cover this sort of stuff but it’s not a bad idea to have a power dedicated to it since the members of the Hebdomad don't take worship. I’d also tweak your “God of gluttony” Idea and have him promoting wastefulness; consumption seems a little more on the negative energy side of the equation.

'eldersphinx' wrote:
Motives and ethics aside, I think that a free source of positive energy released into the Prime would have less drastic and noticeable consequences than a similar source of negative energy.
How about cancer? That’s pretty much just rapid and uncontrolled growth of cells from what I know and that sounds like a positive energy effect to me.

__________________

"We're making a better world. All of them, better worlds." - Anonomous Harmonium Officer

mmxbass's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-08-25
What's so good about positive energy?

'Iavas' wrote:
So although the two planes themselves are neutral, their uses and their [few] inhabitants are swayed toward one side or the other.
Also remember though. Good can sometimes be hard to come by in the inner planes. Most inner planes seem to have far more neutral (elementals and others) and evil (lots of genies) inhabitants than good ones.

Bob the Efreet's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
What's so good about positive energy?

'Clueless' wrote:
deaths of unborn (too much life-energy causing them to 'pop')

That is a gruesome, yet innocent-seeming, statement. You should tell your 'loth-boy that he's having a "good" effect on you.

__________________

Pants of the North!

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
What's so good about positive energy?

*innocent look*

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
What's so good about positive energy?

'mmxbass' wrote:
'Iavas' wrote:
So although the two planes themselves are neutral, their uses and their [few] inhabitants are swayed toward one side or the other.
Also remember though. Good can sometimes be hard to come by in the inner planes. Most inner planes seem to have far more neutral (elementals and others) and evil (lots of genies) inhabitants than good ones.

As I recall there's at least one arch-elemental who's a good guy. I'd have to check, but I'm fairly sure there's more of a balance than one would think at first glance.

Iavas's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2006-07-12
What's so good about positive energy?

I'm pretty sure there are four archomentals of good to counteract the four archomentals of evil. The evil ones have been about longer, so they're a bit more powerful, but the good ones still exist.

Jem
Jem's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
What's so good about positive energy?

'Azriael' wrote:
'eldersphinx' wrote:
Motives and ethics aside, I think that a free source of positive energy released into the Prime would have less drastic and noticeable consequences than a similar source of negative energy.
How about cancer? That’s pretty much just rapid and uncontrolled growth of cells from what I know and that sounds like a positive energy effect to me.

It would be quite natural, in the d20 setting, for a mundane animal or plant in a magical environment to evolve a connection to the Positive Energy Plane as a source of energy and self-healing. Such a creature would regenerate damage at a good clip, probably be unaging, and not have to eat any more because it would never be hungry.

Since it would never feed and wounds wouldn't bother it for long, it would rarely have reason to wander into human-controlled areas, but it could still become a "monster", say, in rut or if it's territorial and humans arrive in its territory. Also, if there are many of these creatures they'd be unconstrained by food sources and could easily begin reproducing at an ecology-unbalancing clip. This would definitely sound like a culling job for druids. A plant with these abilities is a lot less aggressive, of course, but if there's already a forest full of the stuff it would be a tough job to keep burning it back as it tries to expand indefinitely.

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
What's so good about positive energy?

Kudzu comes to mind.

Jem
Jem's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
What's so good about positive energy?

'Clueless' wrote:
Kudzu comes to mind.

Exactly what I was thinking of.

Also, that such a creature might have been bred deliberately for medical purposes and escape into the wild; its blood, milk, or sap might make a good, cheap, renewable healing potion.

420
420's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-06-27
What's so good about positive energy?

'Jem' wrote:
'Clueless' wrote:
Kudzu comes to mind.

Exactly what I was thinking of.

Also, that such a creature might have been bred deliberately for medical purposes and escape into the wild; its blood, milk, or sap might make a good, cheap, renewable healing potion.


Gotta use the venom if you want to make an antidote.

-420

Darkness_Elemental's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2006-01-13
In responce to clueless's post in Brainstorming session, part 3:

Quote:
2) Recent books which have tied negative energy undead to evil and positive energy undead to good. Which is in direct and *utter* contradiction to 2nd ed material and frankly poorly researched. Look up the elven undead guardians, the baelnor - a great example of 2nd ed undead, negative energy critter that's L-to-the-G. It's been widely assumed that animated objects are defined as items having a link forged to the positive energy plane in the same way undead do to the negative. (I'll include a reference for this as soon as I can find one.)
Doesn't the Ravid, a positive energy outsider, cause nearby objects to spontaneously animate? I don't have my MM, so I can't check, but I think it does.

Clueless's picture
Offline
Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
What's so good about positive energy?

Yep. Animate object - presumably because it can channel positive energy. I don't have the stats on it in front of me either or I'd check.

Bob the Efreet's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
What's so good about positive energy?

'Darkness_Elemental' wrote:
Doesn't the Ravid, a positive energy outsider, cause nearby objects to spontaneously animate? I don't have my MM, so I can't check, but I think it does.

Ravid, yes, that's the one.

__________________

Pants of the North!

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.