So far, I know classwise there are (at least) 5 classes that use the Psionic Power source: The Monk, Psion, Ardent, Battlemind, and Seekers. Or so I gather since these are the 5 classes mentioned in the Psionics section of the PH3 preview. There will apparently be classes that use a Ki Focus (and therefore the Ki Power source). Will these be separate classes we haven't yet heard about, or will some of the classes (i.e. Monk) have TWO Power sources they draw upon...? Does anybody have more information, including about other races in the PH3 (so far the Minotaur, Githzerai, and those plant-people are all I know of)?
What's in the 4E Player's Handbook 3
From what I've heard:
-Skill Utility Powers
-Superior Implements
-Hybrid Classes (which is essentially 2e multiclassing, with the half class versions of all 24 non-DDI classes)
-Races:
Wilden (aka the Killoren)
Githzerai (because we all love them)
Minotaur
Shardminds (crystal beings? Right now they sounds really silly to me)
-Classes:
Ardent (Psionic Leader, the Complete Psionic class redone as a warrior that wields emotions as a weapon)
Battlemind (Psionic Defender, the 3e Psychic Warrior redone for 4e, there's Quick and the shapeshifting Resilient as the types)
Monk (Psionic Striker, the old class back as a close/melee implement using class, there's Centered Breath for internal martial arts and Stonefist for external martial arts styles)
Psion (Psionic Controller, the iconic psionic class with so far just Telekinesis and Telepathy as options and what specialist Enchanter Wizards became)
Runepriest (Divine Leader, don't ask me how it's any different from a Battle-Cleric)
Seeker (Primal Controller, mystical hunter and essentially the Arcane Archer as a full class)
Ripvanwormer, reguarding your comment that "the Ki Power source no longer exists": that's what I thought, too, until I saw it in the very recent article about PH3 ("February and beyond", I think), which included actual sample magic item Ki focuses!!! Why would they do that in a preview article if Ki is nonexistent? Obviously, they changed their minds, since the items ARE listed, samples and all. Unless there has been a HUGE goof-up, then there WILL be Ki power classes in PH3. Please take a look at the article yourself and be the judge... the article you are reffering to "Ki power Source is gone" is from 2009, and not as current at the one I'm reffering to which is 2010 and new.
The Ki focuses are monk only implements. It's in the monk preview in Dragon, which also list the Monk as Psionic. The Ki power source is good and dead.
I've mentioned 6 classes above, and they've said a month ago there will only be 6 classes in the PHB3.
Ki Foci are implements, used by classes such as the Monk and the Assassin (the DDI only class).
Then why CALL them "Ki" focuses?!? If those classes don't use Ki, they should be called Psionic focuses! (Or Shadow, in the case of the Assasin.)
Can't a monk use "Ki" even if that's not a power source?
I think you're getting too tangled in the specifics of terminology.
Pants of the North!
Yeah. The fact that a ki focus exists doesn't mean there's a ki power source, any more than the existence of a vorpal sword (instead of an arcane sword) means there's a vorpal power source, or a rogue's sneak attack (instead of a martial attack) means there's a sneak power source. Not every adjective is a power source. Monks do use ki (just as rogues use sneaking), but they aren't powered by it.
Hmm... oh well. Maybe they killed Ki as a Power source because they didn't have a bunch of other Ki classes slated for the PH3, so they lumped Monks in with the Psionic classes. That way, they could put more Monk stuff in the "Psionic Power" book they have coming out later this year... I assume the Runepriest and Seeker will get more "stuff" in "Divine Power 2" and "Primal Power 2".
There was no justification to have it as a power source, when all Ki classes was going to lead to was "Like X but Asian" which I find offensive to my own ethnic background. Just because a Chinese person is good at something doesn't mean he's drawing from another power source simply because he's Chinese. It's like saying that all Irish people use the power source of super-drunkeness simply because they're Irish.
Now, wait a minute, Kobold Avenger... wasn't it the asians themselves who invented the idea of Chi/Ki and defined it as being a source of power for martial artists? These ideas came from asians, not whites! And how is attributing Ki powers to someone (Chinese or otherwise) insulting? Is it insulting to attribute a white man's wizardly powers to magic? Calling someone a super-drunkard is insulting on its face, wereas saying someone has Ki powers (or magic powers, psionic powers, etc.) doesn't seem that way to me. And it's not that all asians draw on the same power source - a asian character using Divine or Arcane power is not using Ki, and a white character who plays a monk is using Ki (at least in 3rd Edition, anyway). It would be insulting to stereotype all asians as good at martial arts, etc, just as it's insulting to label all Irish people drunkards. But it's the classes that would be defined as using Ki - not a particular race of people. Anyway, with reguards to your comment about all Ki classes being "like x but Asian", Samurai are more than just Lawful Fighters, and Ninjas are more than just rogues wearing black bodysuits... they deserve full classes of their own, whatever Power Source you care to lump them under. (If not Ki, probably Martial.)
Do you read Order of the Stick? Samurai is treated as a social caste there - the various samurai characters include an NPC with (3e) aristocrat levels, a paladin, and a paladin/monk.
The word Qi or 氣 (traditional Zhongwen) or 气 (simplified) means "Gas", or "Breath". Breath and breathing, that's hardly an exclusive concept.
There's something out there called "Qi-Water" but it's not hardly anything that's mystical when most "Qi-Water" has words like Coca-Cola, 7up, Pepsi or Future Cola written on the bottle.
Beyond the simple concept of breathing, other cultures do have an some concepts of internal flow force too. Much like how the idea of the shamanism is not at all exclusive to Native Americans, neither is the concept of any internal force or flow or whatever.
And samurai are nothing more than fighters with a code and Ninjas are nothing more than assassins or rogues. They don't deserve full classes at all, they are nothing more than a particular build of those classes. As I'd say "if Samurai, why aren't we getting Hworang, or Cossacks, or Janissaries or Gurkhas as full classes." Genghis Khan is definitely not Daimyo or whatever would have passed as some sort of Ki leader when he's clearly a Warlord.
Samurai are members of a particular social caste, certainly, but there's more to it than that. They had special training, special equipment (i.e. the katana and wakizashu swords), and other traits that made them clearly distinct from, say, a European Knight. And there is no Middle Ages European equivalent of the Ki concept, either. It seems ridiculous to me that a Knight and a Samurai character could use the same game stats, and the only difference would be visual (i.e. Samurai armor looking different from Knight armor.) Gee, let's get rid of the Rogue class, too... he's just a sneaky fighter that uses knives! And Paladins are just Holy Fighters, so off they go to the dump bin, too... "But wait!" you say, "Paladins have special powers!" - exactly my point. And so do Rogues, and so do Samurai and Ninjas.
Well, samurai didn't in the 3e Oriental Adventures hardcover. Statistically, they were just fighters with codes of honor and weapons of legacy. The Complete Warrior version was more interesting, giving them some of the supernatural intimidation abilities they had in 1st and 2nd edition, but was there really a flavor justification to give them those things? Historically, they were just knights with different weapons and armor (and really, different weapons and armor aren't justification for a separate character class, or "fighter with axe" would be a separate class from "fighter with bow"). OA didn't have a ninja base class, suggesting people just use the rogue with prestige classes. Complete Adventurer, did, but most of its powers were Ethereal Plane themed; definitely not the only way to play a ninja. If I wanted to be a ninja that wasn't connected to the Ethereal Plane, I'd just play a rogue. Most ninjas in books and movies had nothing to do with the Ethereal Plane; you could just use a rogue or assassin, though I think the Complete Adventurer ninja was more interesting than the assassin prestige class (and I'd use it even in Western settings, for orders of magical assassins there like Greyhawk's Scarlet Brotherhood). The Complete Adventurer ninja might be cool as an order of assassins that work for the xill.
An old issue of Dragon once called the 1st edition barbarian and cavalier classes "fighters with attitude problems." Which is why they got rid of those classes in 2nd edition; you could play the same sort of character as a fighter with the right proficiencies and personality. Paladins are a little different; there's a meaningful difference between fighter and "holy warrior with powers from a god." There's not really so much of a meaningful difference, as far as the concept of the classes go, between "fighter" and "Asian fighter." It's like making "soldier" and "African American funky street hip-hop soldier" separate classes. You're playing in stereotypes, when in real life they did the same thing (hit people with swords).
And worst of all saying that samurai should be a full class, but Hworang shouldn't be full class, is basically saying, "Koreans aren't cool, they suck, and there's nothing special about Korea".
Well, Asia's a big place, and there's a bajillion different ethnicities there. What with limits in time and page count, they decided to stick to the ones that are the most familiar for general American audiences. I don't think they were deliberately snubbing the Korean culture any more than they were deliberately snubbing the Cambodians, Thai, or Filipinos.
Kobold Avenger is certainly right that there are a lot of real-world examples that would make great character classes. The only limitation is space. More people are familiar with Samurai and Ninja than know about Hworang (or Sohei, for that matter), and so those classes got written up in previous editions and other classes didn't. My point was not that it's outright impossible to play a Samurai using the Fighter class, or the Ninja using the Rogue class... my point was simply that it's not as satisfying to play the concept that way as it is to have an actual class devoted to the idea. Put another way, suppose the Rogue class didn't exist. Could you make a Rogue-like character using the Fighter class? Sure - but it wouldn't have all the "bells and whistles" that you get when you play the actual Rogue class. The Rogue class does a better job of letting you play a Rogue than if you had to kind of fake it using the Fighter class. I feel the same is true of Samurai and Ninja, that's all. When I play such a character, I want to feel I am playing a character that is distinct from the base Fighter or Rogue class - otherwise, why play a Samurai or Ninja at all? To me, claiming that all warrior-types or rogue-types are the same is like arguing that there's no need for different weapon types - after all, they all do damage, don't they? So we'll just have one generic weapon type in the game, and the player can specify whether he is using a sword, axe, or bow and arrow! You could do it, but it'd be mighty unsatisfying. That's all I'm trying to say, that people who want to play those concepts want something more than just another generic Fighter or Rogue - they want playing a Samurai to feel different than playing a Knight, not just in terms of culture but in terms of gameplay mechanics, the "bells and whistles". Look at the Wizard, Sorceror, and Warlock - all Arcane spellcasters, but each got a separate character class, and rightly so. Well, that's all I got to say. If we don't agree, I guess we don't agree...
As far as I'm concerned with all the types classes, it's All or Nothing. And nothing wins out.
Comparing a Rogue to a Fighter is a very bad example because they are quite different, based on their roles. A fighter is a Defender, while it may minor as a Striker, it's primary job is to lock down enemies and be the centre of fighting going on and keep enemies from fighting others. A Rogue is a striker, and well really only a striker, it's job is to take down single enemies by striking them really hard, quickly moving in and out with the right opportunities. Sneaking around clearly has an effect as far as the rules of the game goes.
I may be going on about the mechanics, but classes are clearly all about the mechanics. Things such as role-playing and one's place in the game world, and the feel of things are secondary things when comes to classes. And classes have to contain a variety of broad yet focusable concepts.
The Fighter happens to be one of the most versatile classes around, as it covers almost all archetypes of someone who is good with melee weapons. Heavy armour, Light armour, sword and shield, one big weapon, two-weapons, weapon and fist and more, there's so many options out there for a Fighter. And adding on things like paragon paths and fighting styles, you have even more things to use to make one fighter very different from another fighter. And there's many different archetypes of Fighters, that's what builds are for. You can have both a character such as Conan (the certainly not a Barbarian in 4e) and another character that's a lot like Guan Yu, and they are both clearly fighters.
There's nothing that a samurai has to distinguish it from a fighter, that couldn't be easily accomplished with just another build or paragon path.
Well, are you talking about the literal, purely historical Samurai and Ninja, or are we talking fantasy versions? Because a lot of the abilities in other classes in the game didn't exist in real life, either. Clerics in real-world Europe had no "divine spells", Paladins couldn't heal people just by touching them, and so forth. These abilities are from myth and legend, not real life. Why can Western culture-based classes have legendary powers, but Asian classes like the Samurai must confort strictly to real life?!? But anyway, Kobold Avenger, you at least seem open to the possibility of having special builds or Paragon paths for the Samurai and Ninja, whereas that Order of the Stick cartoon took the position that even that would be superfluous. In any case, it's all a moot point unless/until WOTC actually adresses the issue (if they ever do in this edition.)
And those mystical Chinese warriors could very well be Swordmages, Monks, Battleminds, Avengers or other classes, as those in Chinese myth tend to come from varied backgrounds and philosophies. As something like a "Taoist mystic" may indeed be many possible things as it could be a Cleric, Wizard, Invoker, Shaman, Psion, Artificer or more.
I haven't seen the 4E Assasin class yet, since I don't subscribe to D&D Insider, but you're right that that would probably have a lot of what I want in a Ninja. As for Samurai, I was thinking of powers that previous editions of the game gave them, like Ki shout. Not a whole lot of "mystical" powers, just a few things to make the class feel exotic.
That ki shout power as it was in that 3e book is still containable inside the Martial Power source. As it simply would be an attack with the fear key word. A quick search of the compendium shows that fighters currently have a lack of such powers, but a lot of the fear keyword powers that a martial class has belongs to the Warlord class.
As for what's actually in PHB3, well my opinions of the classes so far given the preview are:
Ardent (Psionic Leader): Similar but not too related to the 3e class by the same name. While the 3e Ardent were philosophers who drew power from adherence to some concepts and principles that possibly came from deities. The 4e Ardent is more of a warrior in control of emotions, whether it's their own or of those around them. You could say they're like Warlords, but an Ardent is more like someone who understands and manipulates emotions and concepts much like a Warlord uses and understands tactics.
Battlemind (Psionic Defender): The Psychic Warrior was one of my favourite classes back in 3e, and this is certainly the descendant of the Psychic Warrior. The Battlemind is a very tactical warrior, one that fights the battles first in it's mind and alters themselves accordingly, as it's a class all about fighting the biggest enemy their is and making sure it doesn't take on anyone else. I see them as being the contemplative type, who are all about acting with efficiency or sudden bursts of action, and they are perhaps one of the most mobile of the heavy armour proficient classes (they can walk on water with an at-will 2nd level utility power).
Monk (Psionic Striker): The Monk has come back even more mystical than it was before. The 2 Monk builds in this book use all implement attacks, except they're mostly touch attacks, and can use either ki foci (which enchants any of their weapon attacks) or any weapon they're proficient with as implements. The Monk has a lot of movement related powers, and can take on many opponents all at once. Certainly a class I'd like to see more of, and they're in many ways the same concepts as they were before.
Psion (Psionic Controller): The Psion is pretty well the same class as it was before. There's only telepaths and telekinetics as builds, but there'll be shapers in some form when Psionic Power comes out. Some will probably like that they're more focused in abilities, others might just hate that they aren't as versatile as they were in 3e.
Runepriest (Divine Leader): I know little about this class other than it can choose to use a rune of destruction or protection with it's attacks. Much like how the Invoker wields the Language Primeval (of the powers and ancients) through the words they spoke, the Runepriest uses the Handwriting Primeval as the basis for all their powers.
Seeker (Primal Controller): A seeker is a hunter that has a compact with the spirits to avenge/protect nature/whatever. They're essentially the Arcane Archer as a full class, using spiritually empowered arrows or throwing weapons. Different in that they're the only controller class that uses weapons rather than implements.
Another thing is that all races in the book, now get choices for their ability bonuses. Githzerai now get +2 Wis; +2 Dex or Int, as much as I'm one to say "screw optimized race/class ability score bonuses" it's nice to have some them work out with the concept. A it actually makes some of my concept for Githzerai back from 2e viable in 4e. As I always was in favour of Githzerai as Psions or Wizards or even Swordmages (that would be Dak'kon).
That's nice to hear. One more question about the Samurai and Ninja, if you don't mind? I can't find my copy of AD&D Oriental Adventures anywhere, and I was wondering how they handled the Samurai and Ninjas there, power-wise (i.e. what special abilities did they get in the original book?) I cracked open my 3E Oriental Adventures book and I see that the 4E rules already cover the "ancestral weapons that level up" thing, not specifically about Samurai per se but it works the same. (I think in the DMG2)...
NOBODY out there got a copy of the Old Oriental Adventures book handy...? (If you saw my room, you'd understand why I don't just dig up my own copy... it might as well be lost on another plane!!!)
I just wrote this for another forum, so I might as well cross-post it here.
Well, I could do it. Ki in 3e is relevant only to a few class abilities, rather than a force utilized by all character classes. You can learn everything there is to know about 3e ki by looking at the descriptions of the monk and ninja classes (and, I just noticed, the sohei class in 3rd edition Oriental Adventures has an ability called ki frenzy, and the wu jen class mentions ki, so there's no inconsistency. We know it's supernatural (which means it can be dispelled by the same things that dispel magic), it can be used to increase the amount of unarmed damage done, and that it can overcome weapon resistances just as magic weapons can.
The ninja class in Complete Adventurer has the following ki power, more complex than any other:
As long as a ninja’s ki pool isn’t empty (that is, as long
as she has at least one daily use remaining), she gains a
+2 bonus on her Will saves.
A ninja’s ki powers are ghost step, ki dodge, ghost strike,
greater ki dodge, and ghost walk. Each power is described
under a separate entry below.
In first edition, ki was also tied to class abilities, and seems essentially the same. Though the first edition ninja didn't have any ki powers, just mundane skills like disguise and assassination.
"Through training with his particular weapon and his mental practice, a kensai learns to focus his ki power. This lets him cause maximum damage with a single attack when using his specialized weapon... At 11th level the kensai can make a whirlwind attack. This is an additional ki power. The kensai concentrates his bodily energy and bursts into a blurring whirlwind of motion. This ability requires all the character's ki power for the day."
"At 1st level monks have the ki power to reduce the amount of damage caused by magical attacks... At 7th level the monk, by concentrating his inner power, can heal 2-5 points of damage on his own body per day."
"At 1st level the samurai begins the art of focusing his ki (the energy of his body). By concentrating on his breathing and using a kiai (a loud, fierce shout), the samurai increases his Strength score to 18/00. The effect lasts only one round." (Note that the version of the samurai class in Complete Warrior had this ability too, though the kiai strike isn't explicitly credited to "focusing his ki" there, and the 3.5 edition kiai strike gives a bonus to attack and damage equal to a charisma bonus instead of giving the character a new strength score - also, note that the 3.5 edition kiai strike isn't supernatural like a monk's or ninja's ki powers are).
"Shukenja also are trained to draw upon their ki to protect themselves in dangerous situations. A shukenja can focus his ki to physically and mentally resist an attack."
"At 3rd level the sohei, through religious training and practice, can focus his ki power. Knowing that he is among the chosen, this fills his body with berserk energy and disdain for his own life..." (essentially the same as barbarian rage in 3rd edition, but credited to ki - the 3rd edition sohei has the same ability)
"To learn his spells, a wu jen puts himself through a strict regimen of mental training. He learns to meditate like a shukenja. He develops his ki powers to gain several abilities. By focusing his ki, he can burst into sudden action once per day. At 4th level a wu jen gains his second ki power--the ability to summon massive magical energies. This allows him to cast any one spell that is three or more levels lower than the wu jen's level, at maximum effect." (Note that the 3rd edition Oriental Adventures has the "sudden action" ability too, and it's also credited to focusing their ki; the "summon massive magical energies" ability from 1st edition became metamagic feats in 3rd edition, but with essentially the same result).
The ki powers of the samurai and wu jen class in 1st edition OA also appeared in the samurai and wu jen kits in The Complete Fighter's Handbook and The Complete Wizard's Handbook for 2nd edition... but the word "ki" wasn't used. The powers were basically identical, however.
There were also "psychic duels" that any 1e OA class could engage in, though this isn't connected to ki, and might not even be supernatural. "The psychic duel is a type of mental combat that can be practiced by any character race or class. It does not require psionic talent. It is a test of the wills of the duelists-- their courage, skill, and determination. It is an invisible fight, the outcome revealed by a faint grimace, the flicker of an eyelid, or the tic of a muscle." Basically, it seems psychological - the two combatants try to psych each other out.
In summary, I think ki in D&D is exactly like any other supernatural power in D&D. A barbarian's rage is ki, a monk's supernatural strike is ki,and probably a paladin's ability to detect evil and lay on hands could be blamed on ki, if you wanted to. It's defined as "the energy of your body," but that's just a matter of flavor. A shukenja in 3rd edition's Oriental Adventures is said to "focus the power of the elements through their bodies and produce magical effects" - well, that's bodily energy, so that's ki, even if they don't call it that. If a wu jen's bonus metamagic feats are ki, then all metamagic feats are ki, or might as well be.
A quick google search brought me this: http://newbiedm.com/2009/05/11/ki-power-source-is-gone-hello-psionic-monk/
The ki power source no longer exists.