What is the hatred against Toril???

I (heart) Forgotten Realms.

To me, Planescape is cool and I've gotten into it more over the last few years, but my heart still belongs to FR. Yeah, it has some problems, but I still think it is a wonderful setting with such a rich history, yet still plenty of unknowns to tinker with.

I'm starting to get into Eberron, but it still doesn't live up to FR.

I don't like how the world is laid out. I like worlds with big continent-spanning mountain ranges. Faerun's mountains are too scattered for my tastes.

There's also the problem that Toril has three Middle Eastern-style regions (Calimshan, Mulhorand/Unther/Murghom/Semphar, and Zakhara) scattered illogically around the planet. Portals can explain that, but I'd prefer to see the world more logically arranged. This part is even less of a problem for me now since I got this idea about the Imaskari Empire meeting another planewalking civilization who turn out to be based in Zakhara (also the national deity of their people was Aoskar, who the Imaskari named after an ancient word in their language - Ao - which they didn't realize the origins of. To them it just meant "deity" with the connotation of a particularly useless power. "Skar" means portal. The Aoskari go on, after a period of domination by the Imaskari, to become a wandering tribe of portal-makers who spread throughout the world, something of a Jewish analog. The name the Aoskari gave their god is unknown. They depict their deity as an open door, simple or ornate. Since their god died, there is much prejudice among other peoples who fear that worshipping a dead god invites the wrath of the living gods, to say nothing of the unknown fate of the souls of those who die without a living patron in the afterlife.

I've been thinking about the Forgotten Realms much more lately).

The Avatar Crisis, mainly a misguided excuse to give 2nd edition AD&D's metagame changes a story justification, kind of like The Apocalypse Stone and Die, Vecna, Die! were for 3e but with specific changes that screwed up a specific game world instead of general hints that were kept generic and flexible. I mean, all the gods are cast down from the Outer Planes at once? It's just such a preposterous, cataclysmic, clumsy deus ex machina that I can't bear it. And specific details, like how Leira dies just because the illusionist is a kind of specialty mage instead a seperate base class in 2e. So, so clumsy.

Much of Faerun seems terribly bland and generic to me.

Some of the 2e FR accessories were terrible. Lands of Intrigue, The Shining South, Netheril - so boring, all. The 3e supplements are much, much, better, but they inherit some of their predecessors' badness.

Simple preference. Some people prefer Elvis, some the Beatles. Quentin Tarantino has forbidden anyone from liking them both equally. For whatever stupid reason, I've aligned myself with the World of Greyhawk in the great Greyhawk vs. the Realms debate. My fate is sealed.

What I like about the Forgotten Realms: some of the gods are extremely interesting, when divorced from their Avatar Crisis baggage. Said gods are more detailed than they are in any other campaign. I'm very intrigued by the Hordelands, Thay, the Old Empires, Zakhara, and the eastern end of the Shining South.

My opinions about the Forgotten Realms really don't have anything to do with the fact that I'm a huge Planescape fan. They're just opinions I've picked up over time.

I must say, that's the first time I've ever heard anyone complain about that... and I've heard a lot of people complain about FR

"Skar" seems more like it should mean "people" -- hence "Imaskari" and "Aoskari" -- with the deific name "Aoskar" backformed from the name of the people. Unless Imaskar itself means something like "people of the portal", which seems an odd name to give to one's nation. That said, I don't know anything about the old Imaskari so maybe it makes perfectly good sense; tell us more!

You're forgetting my favorite one: Bhaal died because they removed the Assassin class from the game. That's it. That's why a god died. Clumsy doesn't even begin to describe it.

[OTOH, we got Baldur's Gate out of it, so I guess it wasn't a complete loss.]

I actually really like Netheril -- which is available for free on Wizards' website -- but yeah, I'll give you the others.

Unlike Elvis and the Beatles, however, one is allowed to like neither Greyhawk nor FR

I guess I'm more forgiving of warts, pimples, and other unsightly blemishes. I'm not saying it is the setting. In some ways it is a bit cluttered, but it many ways it makes it more "realistic" (insert usual caveat about high fantasy being able to be realistic). Worlds are jumbled places. Not everything has a neat and orderly place. Primes don't fall into nice little slots like planes on the Great Wheel.

Greyhawk v. FR.
Coke v. Pepsi.
Less filling v. Tastes great.
Linux v. Windows.
Beatles v. Elvis.

There are many conceptual holy wars. Those that like FR, know there are others out there that like it as well. Those that don't, you're just dumb. Wait. Just kidding. It is easy to find flaws. I also believe you take what you want out of things and ignore/discard the rest. When I play in FR, it is my version of FR.

One point I will address is Munchkinitis. That is largely a function of players/gamers. Yes, I agree it is somewhat built into the setting. Call it "inflation" or whatever, but it is hard to have a world be around IRL for decades and balance both its evolution and the tendency to twink. If the world doesn't evolve, it becomes stagnant and boring.

Another point I'll bring up is that although sometimes difficult, try to keep the "what" and "why" separate. Bhaal died. Fun plot point. Whether it had to do with a rules issue or was just a cool plot point, you might as well enjoy it. I don't mean to pick on that one point. It applies in a lot of cases.

And no, the time of troubles doesn't reallyt make sense from a Planescape perspective. It makes a lot more sense from a FR:CS perspective. Burind in another thread are discussions on how each setting has its own cosmology. Not all are made to work well within PS:CS.

(Who put that soap box under my feet!! )

Bah. Just the opinion of one fella. Ignore it.

I guess FR was never all that appealing to me because it's as if you were playing in a normal, standard D&D fantasy world of your own design, but it's not of your own design. Maybe D&D has conformed to FR as a standard (the Red Wizard is in the DMG, after all, and the 2e core books had plenty of references to FR) or maybe FR was just designed to stay within the normal bounds of the game. But there's nothing to really make it stand out as different from "regular D&D," besides how much material there is on the history and how much detail there is to it.
Dragonlance might interest me (at least the novels did, or at least the Chronicles and Twins trilogies did), Dark Sun was a shattered world, Planescape is wild surrealism, but Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk are still, "Orcs are raiding our town. Please kill them."

Plus, there's too much magic. Every town constable carries an amulet of natural armor +1.

Probably, though, I just feel jealous that Forgotten Realms is continued while other settings (Planescape) are not.

While I dislike the FR for all the above reasons, I also played and really liked the Gold Box series (ah, poor pathetic Phlan), Baldur's Gate I and II, and Icewind Dale I and II. Especially Icewind Dale, it had the coolest soundtrack around. I still buy many FR books.

So while I may detest some things about it, the place feels like home. It's probably more accurate to say that I like FR but dislike many of the changes that the designers made to "keep up with the times." No doubt many people share my concern.

If only the designers would kill off the major goody-two-shoes NPCs (especially the silver sisters), reduce the continual intervention of the gods, ditch the new cosmology, ignore the Time of Troubles and make the bad guys into something other than buffoons, it would be a much better setting.

At least in Greyhawk the evil guys are freakin' scary, and they're winning, and there are no all-powerful good guys like Blackstaff to save the day.

the bad bufoon deal is a pain I have to agree considering one time a very foolhardy player kicked a good many of enm in the ars and became pretty powerful to

Wait a minute...

There's a reason that archetype is so popular: it slots in perfectly to the teenage mindset.

You could pass an early American history exam with the Maztica source book if the exam focused on the Spanish conquistors. :roll:

Only if you went really light on the details about divine influence and how Cortes had the advantage of arcane spellcasters.

I agree with Rip on favoring FR's "Non-European Exotics" books over the "Volo's Guide to Last Week" books. Although I actually liked Lands of Intrigue as well.

Why? Ursula LeGuin herself disavowed that dreck.

To keep things open and fair, I'm gonna reveal my dark secret:

In high school, I begged more than one DM to let me play Drizzt.

So, I have no room to criticize anyone for liking the Realms.

Are you saying that I can't dislike both Elvis and the Beatles? While I do like a few songs of both, I do tend to think that both Elvis and the Beatles are horribly overrated. I prefer late 60s to mid 80s prog/blues-based/hard rock/metal with kick-ass distorted guitar solos and lots of power cords. (eg, Led Zepplin, AC/DC, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Metallica, Guns 'n' Roses, not Van Halen, however)

Err, sorry about the tangent.

As annoying as the cosmology thing can be, it's easily reconciled.

Cosmology is setting-specific based on the setting you're playing. If you're playing a Realms game, then you get the whole Kelemvor's realm and the realms of the gods thing. If you're playing Planescape... well, those Torilians are just another bunch of ignorant Primes; just be careful about how you inform of this, since they're all sodding powerful.

That's my excuse for pilfering Eberron wholesale, too. As long as I'm not actually playing in Eberron, it's cosmology conforms to the rules of the setting I'm playing.

It's also a principle I'm using (hopefully to great effect) in my Planescape/Star*Drive crossover.

*shakes head* ... wait, what?

I would like to point out that (to my knowledge) no one on this site created Planescape (the original, I mean. yes, yes, we all submit to planewalker which is the new planescape, but thats not my point) and yet we all like it ( or we probably would not be here).

Theres no problem with FR. Its just that the style of gameplay that the setting promotes is less satisfactory to planescapers. PS= heavy roleplay, less combat focus. FR+ heavy combat, less roleplay focused. Does this mean that it is impossible to create a heavy roleplay campaign in FR? No. It can be done, its just not the way the setting usually leans. It also works the other weay. Creating a kick-in-the-door campaign for planescape can be done, it just requires players who know the setting well enough to not get themselves killed.

And I think FR fans have choosen PS for simular reasons.

... *slowly looks over and gives her a peery look* 'Comedic' ?

Planescape was filled with humorous quotes and the like. And DiTerlizzi's drawings could be humorous.

Opps! Sorry - something about the icon pic you chose made me think 'female'. My apologies :oops: