Been around off and on for a long time. Wrote a few reviews back in the day but I haven't been active as much lately (Sorry). I was just curious what people's thoughts were on projects here with the impending release of a new Edition of D&D in about a year.
What Happens with Planewalker in 4th edition?
On the other hand: They said races get new abilities on every other level, all of them start at level one and not all monsters are playable as races. Which, if it is true, sucks for any planescape campaign.
You can still calculate LA, and if class levels are roughly the same power, the work's been done for you. One thing you could do would be to make exempelar classes tho show a character's promotion through whatever hierarchy there is from least to greater fiends or celestials. Since now the there are 30 levels to work with it is easier to to greater fiends, though I'm sure a pit fiend or balor's effective level is more than 30, so it mightn't go all the way up.
Aye - if that's true it's not a design philosophy that I can honestly say I agree with. It hamstrings character creation and makes it much more difficult for a DM to easily eyeball true difficulty levels (CR/ECL is at Best a rough idea and at worse utterly misleading given the number of variances you're dealing with ).
Let's not even mention that the last thing D&D needs is more tables.
"NOT ENOUGH LEVEL PROGRESSION TABLES. ADD MORE LEVEL PROGRESSION TABLES!"
I think that the people at WotC have become convinced that complexity is a selling point; a great deal of D&D seems to focus on making things as ornate and specific as possible.
I say we go back to 2nd Edition rules and give WotC the middle finger.
We've been going about this all wrong, try to convert Planescape to 3rd edition and WotC whips out 3.5. Try to update to 3.5 and they announce 4th edition.
What we should really do is convert 3, 3.5 and 4 to 2nd Edition and go back to using the original Planescape material.
Bring back THAC0 and my negative AC!
-420
Calculating THAC0 still gives me nightmares. Try doing that stuff when you're 13. It's like quantum mathematics, then.
I tried explaining it to my girlfriend a few months back. She's aced every math course she's ever taken and regularly makes it on the Dean's List at her college, and she still can't understand it.
Calculating THAC0 still gives me nightmares. Try doing that stuff when you're 13. It's like quantum mathematics, then.
I tried explaining it to my girlfriend a few months back. She's aced every math course she's ever taken and regularly makes it on the Dean's List at her college, and she still can't understand it.
Being a college student on the Dean's List (okay, so I'm a history major, bu still), I second that. I just know "Low is good" and pretty much leave it there.
Eh, from what I hear they're making tieflings a major race, so that's good, right?
If 4e sucks we still have 3.5--which is probably fine unless you happen to be a mind flayer.
They sucked all the power and flavor right out of them in 3.5. Now what the hells am I supposed to do with 300 blessed crossbow bolts? I can't even give them away!
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Modern art installment?
Hat. I'd make a hat.
It's like that now - what's the level adjustment on a pit fiend?
But from what I've read, they mean that a, say, minotaur designed as a monster shouldn't be exactly the same as a minotaur designed as a PC. Which isn't to say that there isn't going to be some guideline for playing a minotaur character. It'll just probably be in its own book
Pants of the North!
I say make our own edition, based primarily around Planescape and its roleplaying focus. Make it simple, with just enough numbers to handle combat and the more physical skill checks. Make all monsters easily levelable, depending on their intelligence. Make rules for belief that do more than just add a +2 to your skill checks. Make the storyline continue from where 2e left off, without having to constantly explain the WotC retcons.
Planescape Ruleset, 1e.
Honestly, I'd love to see a ruleset that takes all of the complications of DnD's mechanics and browbeats them down into something simple and flexible. There are a lot of systems in D&D that have always made me go 'wtf?'.
Like--outside of contested rolls (like saving throws or whatever), there are four levels of difficulty. DC 15 (Standard actions), DC 20 (Heroic actions), DC 30 (Legendary actions), and DC 40 (Epic actions). No more of these extensive tables describing to me every possible permutation of a roll.
All classes get d6 hitpoints. Every level for any class is +d6 hitpoints. Classes that are supposed to have more hitpoints can have a class ability that adds +1 hitpoints every level. Or +2. Whatever.
At first level, you get 20 hitpoints modified by your constitution modifier. No more getting killed at first level from a 10 foot fall. That's just stupid.
Class skills, cross-class skills, and skill ranks are stupid. Boil every skill down into a general skill (do Spot and Listen really have to be separate skills? If your character goes blind, can't we as DMs take that into account when making a roll to determine if you see something? Is that really just too hard for us to pull off without a system in place?), give classes a sphere or two as a base, let them add their class level to all rolls for that sphere. Maybe you get to pick one, too. Add your character level. Whatever.
The fact that I can no longer accurately generate random characters on the spot (feat system, skill rank system, and much much more bar the way) really peeves me off.
This is a whole separate rant, however, and I apologize for exposing you to it. D:
If someone wishes to go to the trouble of working up a ruleset for Planescape in another system I'll gladly host it (be that Mage, GURPS, or something else).
It's always been my belief that Planescape is intrinsically linked with the D&D universe--not because D&D fits Planescape so well, but because Planescape defies D&D so well. You really can't get the same feeling of contrast that you get with Planescape when you saddle it up with another system--it blatantly contradicts the rules of the D&D universe, turning the status quo inside out and on top of its head. It's those contrasts--for me, at least--between Planescape and the rest of the D&D world that attracts me so much to Planescape.
Quantify the Lady of Pain's stats. Construct an accurate map of Sigil. So on.
Still, it might be fun to give something like it a try. I'd love to work on a simplified form of the D20 rules to use for more flexible Planescape play. Something that maintains the D&D feel, but makes things much more simple and actually allows for people to create randomly generated characters, including for belief.
I'm also a huge fan of Mage: The Ascension, so hey.
Somebody was doing a GURPS conversion, I don't remember who.
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Didn't you read the PSA poster that said: "THAC0 Is Whacko, don't do it!"
I wasn't implying converting it to an existing ruleset, I meant making a ruleset specifically for the setting. While I like the idea of a simplified D&D ruleset, it leaves the question of what exactly the D&D ruleset is. Is it the 3/3.5e d20 rulset? Is it the 2e THAC0 ruleset? Is it just throwing down dice and pretending like you know what the numbers mean?
Basically, what I was going for was defining the way combat and active abilities work (high rolls good or bad, what exactly does armor do, what sort of magic is there and how does it work, what modifies skills, what kind of attributes define characters, etc) and then leave all the bluff, diplomacy, insanity, and curse effects to the roleplaying side of the table. Forget the 100 item tables of what kind of monster might pop up in this part of the world if the GM rolls a 10. Rather, describe that part of the world and a few major NPCs with their particular schemes. No, the player does not do so and so for so many rounds when he gets confused by the faery dust... he acts confused. He does not roll a d20 to convince the Harmonium guard to release the party's thief so he can help save the world, he starts talking and making a case. Basically, even if there are such attributes as Int, Wis, and Cha, they will simply be a guideline for the way the player roleplays his character. Str, Agi / Dex, and Con will actually govern certain number games, but they really shouldn't be as complicated as 2e or 3e. One die-roll, a +/- from conditions, and compare to a predetermined number. Voila!
The funny thing is that while D&D's rules are an effort to create a symbolic representation of fantasy-based reality, often the symbolic representation becomes an integral part of the reality itself.
Are complications, weird rules, broken systems, and lists upon lists of tables as integral to Planescape as its mythos? I'd hesitantly say yes--mostly because Planescape needs something to defy. Planescape by itself is not enough; it needs to be paired up with D&D worlds like Faerun and Greyhawk, because one of the most important themes of Planescape (so far as I can see, anyway) is that this is not your ordinary fantasy. Without ordinary sword-and-sorcery standing side-by-side for sheer contrast, it loses something.
And since the language of ordinary fantasy is stat-crunching tables full of monsters, I'm not so sure that divorcing Planescape from those roots is a great idea. I'm kind of torn, actually--on one hand I prefer simplicity and what you're talking about, but on the other I feel as if breaking with the game's complexity means leaving behind one of its most important themes.
We've been going about this all wrong, try to convert Planescape to 3rd edition and WotC whips out 3.5. Try to update to 3.5 and they announce 4th edition.
What we should really do is convert 3, 3.5 and 4 to 2nd Edition and go back to using the original Planescape material.
Bring back THAC0 and my negative AC!
-420
Ugh! During the 90's I was a White Wolf fan and avoided D&D because I hated D&D character generation/advancement and I wasn't interested in Tolkien-inspired fantasy.
Then 2000 came around. At the begining of the year came a fun little computer game that showed me just how strange and wonderful D&D could be. Later that year came 3E and the ability to customize one's characters to unprecedented levels for game.
The best thing that 2E had going for it was setting and a little bit of the magic rules that made magic more dangerous. The rest was pretty bad.
Since the 3rd Ed. attack roll system is really just THAC0 with adding instead of subtracting, we could just have 2nd Ed. with a reversed THAC0 to make you all happy
I mean, really, a 4th level fighter with a base THAC0 of 16 is really just a 4th level fighter with base attack bonus of +4. It didn't actually change at all.
![Eye-wink Eye-wink](sites/all/modules/smileys/packs/Example/wink.png)
You'd have to reverse AC, too.
As to the simple/flexable ruleset, have any of you seen this, http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204357&page=1
and/or looked at Star Wars Saga edition? The above linked report lists Saga as a "significant stride forward and a preview", at least as far as skills go.
I wound up spending my summer break messing with Saga edition, and in my oppion it does a good job of simplifying the irritating portions of d20 and emphasising the good parts.
That's one of the major reasons why I'm going to look at 4ed when it comes out and decide then. The SW Saga system *is* a good system, and knowing the author for it I know he's wise in the ways of making a game flow at the table. How much of that transferred over to 4th ed... we shall see.
If you guys bring planescape to 4th ed, could you still host the 3.5 versions, please?
You won't see 3.0 and 3.5 support go away. We put too much work into that.
I never got why people are certain that 4E is going to ruin the game. Second Edition was better than First, and 3.0 was better than second (you can argue all you want, but I really don't want to go back to Thac0 and cookie cutter classes and and all the other stuff people had to make do with for so long. Even 3.5 was an improvement on 3.0. You can say it was unnecessary and that it didn't make any great waves, but it was still an improvement. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a blind optimist, but so far I have no reason to think it will bad, and several reasons to think it will be good.
First, the "racial abilities across 30 levels" thing finally signals the end of the utterly non-functional Level Adjustment system. Admittedly, it will probably mean fewer playable monsters, but how of the current playable monsters are actually, you know, playable. Have you ever tried to play a Khaasta, or a Kyton, or even a Gnoll? It just doesn't work! If they make racial progressions complicated enough to require a table, that means they can't just slap an arbitrary LA on it and wander off. Hell, they might even playtest them this time around!
Second, their designers seem to know what they're doing. Sure there's some talk about Wyatt maybe not being all he's cracked up to be, but otherwise it seems like they've built a competent team. This isn't the motley crew of inexperienced freelancers they've been using lately. These guys actually know what they're doing. There's also some indication that for once they may be conducting some solid playtesting, and even *gasp* editing their work.
The best early sign though is the success of Star Wars: Saga. Many people have considered Saga to serve as what essentially amounts to an open beta test for 4E. Wotc came up with a bunch of cool new rules tweaks to the d20 system, so they started by putting them into their new edition of the Star Wars RPG (a game that hasn't exactly had the best success rate in the industry) before applying it to their flagship product: D&D. Anyway, I haven't played a lot of Saga, but from what I've seen and heard of it, the changes have pretty much all been positive. If that doesn't bode well for 4E, I don't know what does.
Anyway, this whole debate is starting to grow as tedious as it is pointless. I for one intend to stop worrying about it for a few months and not discuss it again until we have something more tangible to base our arguments on.
Khaasta: No, but one of my players is currently doing it. He loves it.
Kyton: Yes, yes I have. 'Twas funny.
Gnoll: Same as the Kyton.
Nothing against the new edition, though. If it's good, I'll use it.
It's best to wait and see for the new edition...
I do hope that all classes get a AC bonus that increases with levels, but that's just me. And if it doesn't in 4e, well I'll put it in anyways.
The problen with AC to DR is that there are actually types of armor (any kind of rigid plate) that should be providing AC and not DR--at least vs. piercing and slashing weapons.
4e might rock, for all we know, but unless one of those campaign settings that they're going to revive under its shadow will be Planescape (a very real possibility, but it better as hell not be 3e Manual of the Planes v2.0), then the system is probably not going to be exactly what Planescape needs. I just think that it would be neat to design a system specifically for PCS without being bound to the official WotC rules.
The more I hear about it, the more I'm liking the sounds of 4e mechanics. However, this blog entry today did make me want to puke:
The Bible is a fantastic resource for a wealth of compelling mythology. Some of the stories are truly amazing and rife with surprisingly insightful symbolism that has a lot to say about the Human Condition and our place in the Universe (see: Genesis, story of Abel and Caine, so on, so on).
That said: Be wary of people who make vague Judeo-Christian references in their work. This is one of the many immediate signs of a blatant aesthetic poverty. Another sign includes playing beautiful ancient elves with enigmatic pasts (HIPPO SMASH DIRTY ELVES).
So my first reaction to hearing that Devils are now Angels who fell is a capitalized, underlined, italicized, 30 font 'meh' (I'll spare you the visual aid). That being said, it's feasible--feasible, mind you--that they'll produce something interesting out of the dynamic. It's not like it's a bad dynamic. It's just been done by everyone and their parapalegic pet hamster.
And the erinyes and succubi now combined into one? Yeah, that meh's a 40 font. But still, it's important to keep in mind that they aren't in the business to pandering to the Planescape mythos. They're producing theoretical building blocks with which you can create your own world.
That doesn't mean their building blocks won't suck, though.
Damn Signers, you can't just imagine changes to the multiverse like that. :/ But really, who cares? WOTC gives us the stats and we use all the stuff we have collectively to make a decent story and they can keep thier clueless prime nonsense.
Good lord, what have they done...
That's just... wrong.
And yes, the Erinyes and the succubus do the same job. That's their point.
Next thing you know they'll be ending the blood war and uniting the Tanari and Baatezu under the name deamon.
Also, is it my imagination, or does this throw the entire pact primevil out the window.
Edit:
One interesting thing is the Ice Devils bound by contract. Another fiendish race, populating Cania.
Ancient Baatorians perhaps, or at least an offshoot of that race? We all know that Asmodeus doesn't really need to worry about Mepistopholes, so perhaps he's really keeping the gelugons under his thumb where he can see them.
OK, so maybe there is some reason to fear the worst. I just hope someone someone talks some sense into them between now and then, because those are some of the stupidest changes I've seen in ages.
Also, Succubi and Erinyes don't fill the same role. At all. Sure they're both mid-CR female flying fiends, but beyond that they're totally different. Erinyes are vengeance spirits they don't do seduction (except maybe for the sake of vengeance). Also, Succubi are almost the definition of Chaotic Evil, they wouldn't make any sense as Lawful. Just, please tell me they're joking.
Nobody should ever, ever let Richard Baker anywhere near the planes. I think the best hope right now is that they have the basic respect and courtesy to make this an in-character myth. It doesn't work at all in an expansive cosmology with multiple pantheons.
The only "fix" I can think of at the moment is to make the "god" they killed a primal being of Law (like Ahriman from Guide to Hell - maybe exactly like). Something like Apomps, but lawful. If the baernaloth Apomps can create the gehreleths, a lawful equivalent could've made the baatezu, and had them rebel against it.
Whoah! Whoah!
What's going on!? Combining succubi and erynies? Who the bloody hell is Richard Baker and why is he messing up my hobby? This better be an entirely new and unrelated cosmology we're talking about here. Where can I find this article that everybody seems to know about?
EDIT: Okay, so I found the blog. That guy apparently doesn't know (or doesn't care) about the way the planes work or all the work that the people who came before him put into them. Yeah, this pissed me off. The 4e rules might be better (given the benefit of the doubt), but if they're going to screw around this much with the roleplaying/canonical elements, they might as well recreate the planes and leave Planescape to those who actually care about it and know what the hell is going on. They've been wanting to redo the default cosmology more logically for a while anyway, and they've been creeping these kinds of retcons in more and more often, so why don't they just go off, redo the whole thing, and write an adventure based on the Bible (encounter Noah, cleric5 monk5 drunkenmaster3 and help him defeat the water elementals threating his ark!).
.... sorry. I've been gritting my teeth on that one all day.
Well, at least we know that Night Hags will stay a seperate type and can continue Darkest Gray worry free.
I don't know about that. They are both female and evil. That's apparantly a niche that's already taken. God forbid that there be two similar things anywhere.
Send angry letters to Rich Baker or something...
Why is the distaste only confined here or EN World?
Because nobody else looked at the planes section of thier DMGs.
I'm going to boycott every book, besides the core rulebooks, that talks about the new devils and whatever other stupid changes they've made. Even if it's just a monster manual with new ones. The rules, I love what I've heard so far. The fluff, not so much. I'll get some old planescape stuff, or something.
Well, I think the greatest strength of D&D has always been in using only the material that isn't dumb. I know we used to ignore a good chunk of the rules just to speed up gameplay, and made up a good many more. And cosmology is even easier to customize.
And also, if I don't spend as much money on D&D stuff I might finally be able to get a Wii.
I think we all ought to go over to the WotC boards and complain as loudly as we can, though. We might be able to do something about this idiocy yet. No trolling, or other disreputible behavior, though.
Yeah, okay, we can all ignore it and play our own game. You're absolutely right.
But come on.
A writing team? A WRITING TEAM?! You mean to tell me that it took an entire team of writers to come up with that? You mean to tell me that you actually paid real money to a group of people for this idea? Someone willingly exchanged currency with someone else for this concept?!
I want to be perfectly, completely, 100% clear on this. Money--as in the dirty green paper I give to shaggy cashiers in exchange for cheap greasy food and books--actually passed hands in this transaction?
Because if it did, I'm going to be a millionaire. No, no--I'm going to be a zillionaire. I just made that word up, but it's okay. I'll be so rich I'll buy Websters and add it to the dictionary.
Listen up, WotC, because I'm about to blow your minds:
- All priests are nice people who pray in churches a lot. Praying is very important to Gods, so they like the priest class, and give them prayer points. They can exchange prayer points for awesome prizes.
- Mount Celestia, Elysium, Ysgard, Arcadia, and that elfy-tree place no one ever remembers were all really complicated, so now we're putting them under 'Heaven'. It's a really cool place with lots of comfortable fluffy clouds. And harps.
- I've modified one of the core races, elves. All elves now have wings and are part angel. Plus, they all have a charisma score of 20.
Cash or check only. And don't be skimpy on the zeroes at the end of that number, you hear? I've got tons more where this came from.
Well... one of the running jokes was: "The PSCS will be ready when 4th is announced... "
Little did I realize...
As for what we'll do with 4th? We'll just keep on doing what we've been doing. It's not like we have a page count limit, so we'll just grind out the numbers to support for the new edition. The harder part of development is usually the ideas and the concepts to use the numbers to reflect. And *that* part we already have down - so all we'll need is someone to number crunch the conversions.