What Happens with Planewalker in 4th edition?

You can still calculate LA, and if class levels are roughly the same power, the work's been done for you. One thing you could do would be to make exempelar classes tho show a character's promotion through whatever hierarchy there is from least to greater fiends or celestials. Since now the there are 30 levels to work with it is easier to to greater fiends, though I'm sure a pit fiend or balor's effective level is more than 30, so it mightn't go all the way up.

Let's not even mention that the last thing D&D needs is more tables.

"NOT ENOUGH LEVEL PROGRESSION TABLES. ADD MORE LEVEL PROGRESSION TABLES!"

I think that the people at WotC have become convinced that complexity is a selling point; a great deal of D&D seems to focus on making things as ornate and specific as possible.

Calculating THAC0 still gives me nightmares. Try doing that stuff when you're 13. It's like quantum mathematics, then.

I tried explaining it to my girlfriend a few months back. She's aced every math course she's ever taken and regularly makes it on the Dean's List at her college, and she still can't understand it.

If 4e sucks we still have 3.5--which is probably fine unless you happen to be a mind flayer.

Modern art installment?

It's like that now - what's the level adjustment on a pit fiend?

But from what I've read, they mean that a, say, minotaur designed as a monster shouldn't be exactly the same as a minotaur designed as a PC. Which isn't to say that there isn't going to be some guideline for playing a minotaur character. It'll just probably be in its own book

Honestly, I'd love to see a ruleset that takes all of the complications of DnD's mechanics and browbeats them down into something simple and flexible. There are a lot of systems in D&D that have always made me go 'wtf?'.

Like--outside of contested rolls (like saving throws or whatever), there are four levels of difficulty. DC 15 (Standard actions), DC 20 (Heroic actions), DC 30 (Legendary actions), and DC 40 (Epic actions). No more of these extensive tables describing to me every possible permutation of a roll.

All classes get d6 hitpoints. Every level for any class is +d6 hitpoints. Classes that are supposed to have more hitpoints can have a class ability that adds +1 hitpoints every level. Or +2. Whatever.

At first level, you get 20 hitpoints modified by your constitution modifier. No more getting killed at first level from a 10 foot fall. That's just stupid.

Class skills, cross-class skills, and skill ranks are stupid. Boil every skill down into a general skill (do Spot and Listen really have to be separate skills? If your character goes blind, can't we as DMs take that into account when making a roll to determine if you see something? Is that really just too hard for us to pull off without a system in place?), give classes a sphere or two as a base, let them add their class level to all rolls for that sphere. Maybe you get to pick one, too. Add your character level. Whatever.

The fact that I can no longer accurately generate random characters on the spot (feat system, skill rank system, and much much more bar the way) really peeves me off.

This is a whole separate rant, however, and I apologize for exposing you to it. D:

It's always been my belief that Planescape is intrinsically linked with the D&D universe--not because D&D fits Planescape so well, but because Planescape defies D&D so well. You really can't get the same feeling of contrast that you get with Planescape when you saddle it up with another system--it blatantly contradicts the rules of the D&D universe, turning the status quo inside out and on top of its head. It's those contrasts--for me, at least--between Planescape and the rest of the D&D world that attracts me so much to Planescape.

Quantify the Lady of Pain's stats. Construct an accurate map of Sigil. So on.

Still, it might be fun to give something like it a try. I'd love to work on a simplified form of the D20 rules to use for more flexible Planescape play. Something that maintains the D&D feel, but makes things much more simple and actually allows for people to create randomly generated characters, including for belief.

I'm also a huge fan of Mage: The Ascension, so hey.

The funny thing is that while D&D's rules are an effort to create a symbolic representation of fantasy-based reality, often the symbolic representation becomes an integral part of the reality itself.

Are complications, weird rules, broken systems, and lists upon lists of tables as integral to Planescape as its mythos? I'd hesitantly say yes--mostly because Planescape needs something to defy. Planescape by itself is not enough; it needs to be paired up with D&D worlds like Faerun and Greyhawk, because one of the most important themes of Planescape (so far as I can see, anyway) is that this is not your ordinary fantasy. Without ordinary sword-and-sorcery standing side-by-side for sheer contrast, it loses something.

And since the language of ordinary fantasy is stat-crunching tables full of monsters, I'm not so sure that divorcing Planescape from those roots is a great idea. I'm kind of torn, actually--on one hand I prefer simplicity and what you're talking about, but on the other I feel as if breaking with the game's complexity means leaving behind one of its most important themes.

Since the 3rd Ed. attack roll system is really just THAC0 with adding instead of subtracting, we could just have 2nd Ed. with a reversed THAC0 to make you all happy

I mean, really, a 4th level fighter with a base THAC0 of 16 is really just a 4th level fighter with base attack bonus of +4. It didn't actually change at all.

As to the simple/flexable ruleset, have any of you seen this, http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204357&page=1
and/or looked at Star Wars Saga edition? The above linked report lists Saga as a "significant stride forward and a preview", at least as far as skills go.
I wound up spending my summer break messing with Saga edition, and in my oppion it does a good job of simplifying the irritating portions of d20 and emphasising the good parts.

If you guys bring planescape to 4th ed, could you still host the 3.5 versions, please?

I never got why people are certain that 4E is going to ruin the game. Second Edition was better than First, and 3.0 was better than second (you can argue all you want, but I really don't want to go back to Thac0 and cookie cutter classes and and all the other stuff people had to make do with for so long. Even 3.5 was an improvement on 3.0. You can say it was unnecessary and that it didn't make any great waves, but it was still an improvement. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a blind optimist, but so far I have no reason to think it will bad, and several reasons to think it will be good.

First, the "racial abilities across 30 levels" thing finally signals the end of the utterly non-functional Level Adjustment system. Admittedly, it will probably mean fewer playable monsters, but how of the current playable monsters are actually, you know, playable. Have you ever tried to play a Khaasta, or a Kyton, or even a Gnoll? It just doesn't work! If they make racial progressions complicated enough to require a table, that means they can't just slap an arbitrary LA on it and wander off. Hell, they might even playtest them this time around!

Second, their designers seem to know what they're doing. Sure there's some talk about Wyatt maybe not being all he's cracked up to be, but otherwise it seems like they've built a competent team. This isn't the motley crew of inexperienced freelancers they've been using lately. These guys actually know what they're doing. There's also some indication that for once they may be conducting some solid playtesting, and even *gasp* editing their work.

The best early sign though is the success of Star Wars: Saga. Many people have considered Saga to serve as what essentially amounts to an open beta test for 4E. Wotc came up with a bunch of cool new rules tweaks to the d20 system, so they started by putting them into their new edition of the Star Wars RPG (a game that hasn't exactly had the best success rate in the industry) before applying it to their flagship product: D&D. Anyway, I haven't played a lot of Saga, but from what I've seen and heard of it, the changes have pretty much all been positive. If that doesn't bode well for 4E, I don't know what does.

Anyway, this whole debate is starting to grow as tedious as it is pointless. I for one intend to stop worrying about it for a few months and not discuss it again until we have something more tangible to base our arguments on.

It's best to wait and see for the new edition...

I do hope that all classes get a AC bonus that increases with levels, but that's just me. And if it doesn't in 4e, well I'll put it in anyways.

4e might rock, for all we know, but unless one of those campaign settings that they're going to revive under its shadow will be Planescape (a very real possibility, but it better as hell not be 3e Manual of the Planes v2.0), then the system is probably not going to be exactly what Planescape needs. I just think that it would be neat to design a system specifically for PCS without being bound to the official WotC rules.

The Bible is a fantastic resource for a wealth of compelling mythology. Some of the stories are truly amazing and rife with surprisingly insightful symbolism that has a lot to say about the Human Condition and our place in the Universe (see: Genesis, story of Abel and Caine, so on, so on).

That said: Be wary of people who make vague Judeo-Christian references in their work. This is one of the many immediate signs of a blatant aesthetic poverty. Another sign includes playing beautiful ancient elves with enigmatic pasts (HIPPO SMASH DIRTY ELVES).

So my first reaction to hearing that Devils are now Angels who fell is a capitalized, underlined, italicized, 30 font 'meh' (I'll spare you the visual aid). That being said, it's feasible--feasible, mind you--that they'll produce something interesting out of the dynamic. It's not like it's a bad dynamic. It's just been done by everyone and their parapalegic pet hamster.

And the erinyes and succubi now combined into one? Yeah, that meh's a 40 font. But still, it's important to keep in mind that they aren't in the business to pandering to the Planescape mythos. They're producing theoretical building blocks with which you can create your own world.

That doesn't mean their building blocks won't suck, though.

Good lord, what have they done...

That's just... wrong.

And yes, the Erinyes and the succubus do the same job. That's their point.

Next thing you know they'll be ending the blood war and uniting the Tanari and Baatezu under the name deamon.

Also, is it my imagination, or does this throw the entire pact primevil out the window.

Edit:

One interesting thing is the Ice Devils bound by contract. Another fiendish race, populating Cania.

Ancient Baatorians perhaps, or at least an offshoot of that race? We all know that Asmodeus doesn't really need to worry about Mepistopholes, so perhaps he's really keeping the gelugons under his thumb where he can see them.

Nobody should ever, ever let Richard Baker anywhere near the planes. I think the best hope right now is that they have the basic respect and courtesy to make this an in-character myth. It doesn't work at all in an expansive cosmology with multiple pantheons.

The only "fix" I can think of at the moment is to make the "god" they killed a primal being of Law (like Ahriman from Guide to Hell - maybe exactly like). Something like Apomps, but lawful. If the baernaloth Apomps can create the gehreleths, a lawful equivalent could've made the baatezu, and had them rebel against it.

.... sorry. I've been gritting my teeth on that one all day.

I don't know about that. They are both female and evil. That's apparantly a niche that's already taken. God forbid that there be two similar things anywhere.

Because nobody else looked at the planes section of thier DMGs.

Well, I think the greatest strength of D&D has always been in using only the material that isn't dumb. I know we used to ignore a good chunk of the rules just to speed up gameplay, and made up a good many more. And cosmology is even easier to customize.

Yeah, okay, we can all ignore it and play our own game. You're absolutely right.

But come on.

A writing team? A WRITING TEAM?! You mean to tell me that it took an entire team of writers to come up with that? You mean to tell me that you actually paid real money to a group of people for this idea? Someone willingly exchanged currency with someone else for this concept?!

I want to be perfectly, completely, 100% clear on this. Money--as in the dirty green paper I give to shaggy cashiers in exchange for cheap greasy food and books--actually passed hands in this transaction?

Because if it did, I'm going to be a millionaire. No, no--I'm going to be a zillionaire. I just made that word up, but it's okay. I'll be so rich I'll buy Websters and add it to the dictionary.

Listen up, WotC, because I'm about to blow your minds:

- All priests are nice people who pray in churches a lot. Praying is very important to Gods, so they like the priest class, and give them prayer points. They can exchange prayer points for awesome prizes.
- Mount Celestia, Elysium, Ysgard, Arcadia, and that elfy-tree place no one ever remembers were all really complicated, so now we're putting them under 'Heaven'. It's a really cool place with lots of comfortable fluffy clouds. And harps.
- I've modified one of the core races, elves. All elves now have wings and are part angel. Plus, they all have a charisma score of 20.

Cash or check only. And don't be skimpy on the zeroes at the end of that number, you hear? I've got tons more where this came from.