What Defines the Nature of a Man?

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What Defines the Nature of a Man?

Greetings again, exemplars, mortals, powers and creatures alike. I am, as you know, Center of All, aurumach rilmani and part-time philosopher. Those of you that read my last thread know that I am working on a mystery Planescape-related project that ties into the powers of belief that structure the Multiverse. This requires me to research what others outside of the rilmani and the Spire believe are answers to many questions of philosophical nature. My last question about fiends returned excellent responses and I am very pleased. I now wish to bring to you a new question for my research.

(As a side note, answering questions as a "personality" is quite okay by me -- you may wish to clarify, however, if the views you post are a character's opinions and not yours.)

As you all should know, the Nameless One among others dealt with a very important question recently: What can change the nature of a man? I will come to that question in due time. The question I pose for you today is related, but not the same.

The Prime historian Thucydides wrote a history about a war that spanned most of the known world for him during his lifetime. Many of you, especially those with Olympian ties, have heard of the Peloponnesian War. In his history, Thucydides attempted to define the motivating force behind the main players in his War. Many historians from his Prime believe that Thucydides claims greed, fear, and rational self interest are the primary driving forces that define a man's existence. This, however, is not a question unique to Thucydides. Most historians and philosophers must wrestle with this question when they write.

And so I pose the question to you. What defines the nature of a man? What drives him? What pushes him to do what he does? Why does he exist?

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As a sensate with a rather

As a sensate with a rather spiritual bent, I'd have to say that the divine, be it powers or something greater, are less experienced than mortals as far as the material world is concerned in one very special regard: Nothing can challange them. No mountain so great they can't lift it, or climb it. And so, it is the place of mortals to experience as much as possible, including suffering, hate, war, famine, lust, happiness, and any other experience he(or she) can strive for. It's an instinct in most, to see things, hear things, do things. An instinct imparted by divine forces, so that when folks become petitioners and drink from certain waters, the powers and whatnot can drink from the same waters for a reversed effect: For them, it is a well of knowledge and experience to be drawn upon, rather than a drain.
Why hasn't anyone seen the powers drink these waters, you say? Well, let's just say those waters flow lots of places, some of which we'll never see, and the powers are gonna be real tight-lipped on the dark of it. My theory? It's a place that includes waters that allow them to reverse the effect on the styx an' others, and through all that experience they get stronger. Worship? Nah, that just makes 'em feel important. It's our own experiences that make 'em strong, after we bug out and find a home in the Outers.

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Apologies for my delayed

Apologies for my delayed reply. The Balance required my attention and then it seemed as if the forum temporarily shifted to another plane when I came to visit last. I am pleased to see it has returned safely.

So you believe that the powers motivate people to do things so that the powers can understand what experience is like? What of the conflicts between powers? Many powers constantly war with each other because of different beliefs in a way not unlike mortals and many exemplars. Does this conflict not create experiences for the powers?

Alternatively, the Toril god Oghma once said that the powers are much more limited than they seem to mortals and can only truly see the world through the lens of their own beliefs and portfolios. Does this lens create an effect on mortals' motivations, or on how the powers perceive these motivations?

Finally, for the sake of argument, allow us to assume that the Athar are correct and the powers are in fact not what they claim to be. Or, perhaps take it a step further and remove powers from the equation at all. Assuming (again, for arguments' sake only) that the powers do not exist, what would drive the mortal soul, then?

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Satisfaction. It is told

Satisfaction.

It is told that no charity is truly praiseworthy, because it is never done for no other reason than to help another. Even when those clueless plaadins claim that they help others without expecting anything in return, they are already getting an important thing: Satisfaction.

It is often said that nothing can match the satisfaction of a job well done. Doesn't this mean that the greatest rewad one can achieve is the satisfaction of achieving his goals?

Heres the deal: Elysium, which represents the ultimate good, traps its victims. It first slowly alters a berks psyche. The berk slowly becomes more optimistic and easygoing. He will not be disappointed or heart brokeen. In the end he will believe that where he is is where he wants to be and what he is is what he wants to be. He will be content. And once you are content, once you are satisfied, there is no reason for you to live anymore. Other than survival, you have accomplished your life goal. At this point, he will be absorbed to the "plane of ultimate good".

Gray Waste, the exact opposite of Elysium does the same with a different way. It makes you believe that there's no point to anything. you slowly loose all interest in life and its concerns, its joys and its sadnesses. Nothing is really worth it. Even if you do it, you do it for no real reason. This is hell in its perfect form. You can imagine heaven in hell, hoping one day you will be saved, pardoned, relieved of your tortures. But what if you think that there's no point to being saved? The result is the same. You have lost your reason of existence. Youwill be just a grey husk of protomaterail waiting to be absorbed in the "plane of ultimate evil".

So mortals and immortals alike struggle for that one thing that gives meaning to their lives: That intimate, irreplaceable, egoistical feeling of satisfaction. They derive their satisfaction from many different things, some fight evil monsters, other fill vaults with riches, some tortue and rape, others love and raise children. But in the end, it the nature of sentient life to never be satisfied. You know in your suvconscious that bein truly satisfied is a dead end.

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What defines the nature of

What defines the nature of a man are his hopes and his dreams. Some people dream of money and power, while other of creating a better world. Some men dream of glory, some dream of family, some dream of friendship, and some dream of love. Some men dream small, some men dream big.

Once a man has a dream, he will go to any lengths to achive it. For those who dream of power, there is no sin too horrible to contemplate. For those who dream of love and family, there is no torture they would not withstand to protect their loved ones. Often, they don't even realize the true identity of their dreams.

When you understand the dream's of a man, you understand his nature. Yet there are some people, some dreams, that lie outside the scope of mortal understanding.

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Ah, but where does the

Ah, but where does the drive for satisfaction, or the wellspring of hopes and dreams spring forth from? To answer the question posed by CoA, let us journey into the realm of experience for a moment. Suppose an atrocity happens, in broad daylight, for many to see. How will different people see it happen? Naturally, as people exist in seperate locations from one another, this atrocity would be viewed from a variety of different perspectives and vantage points, and that's just the physical nature of experience. Then comes the various viewpoints, opinions and belifes of the various viewers of the atrocity. For instance, a sensate committing suicide and with a cleric handy to ressurect him might find the whole experience quite enlightening... but would a dustman agree? Of course not; for a dustman to commit suicide, and then have a cleric prepared to raise him would be anti-thema to his value system. Neither the sensate or the dustman are right or wrong, nor good or evil for how they would each approach such a situation, but never the less, we have here two very different experiences of the same event. So to come back to the atrocity, is it nessesarily an atrocity to every observer, or for the revolutionary who has commited the atrocity, is it a gleaming step of glory? I will remain with my origional point: The Powers drives us to experience things, they motivate us with dreams and hopes, they fill us with the instinct for satisfaction, because ultimately, they need us to experience things. Do they need our worship? No, but worship allows them to keep tabs on which of us are going to have the experiences they desire most... the juciest experiences, if you will.

Granted, they Powers have experiences with one another, but let's face it, when you're addicted to something, you tend to want more and more, and when a Power can have hundreds of well-seasoned worshippers every day, who've passed over, as well as their own experiences every day, well... as a sensate I can tell you that it's worth it.

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Very good question indeed

Very good question indeed Center Of All...i will clarify(as you said we should)that i will not try to answer this question in character.So let's see the three previous answers from Evil,lsdfjkdsf and Stal Shurroth.They are all very good answers.but ultimately they lead to one thing.

 The Mind

This is what defines the nature of man.you can see it both ways.a planescapey way and a neurophysiological one.If the Powers drive us to do things then what creates the powers is our brain.To find satisfaction in your life you must do something that your brain likes to feel satisfied(we're not all programmed to react to the same stimulus).Our hopes,dreams likes and dislikes how we feel and think and how our bodies react it's all because of how the individual's brain functions.So it's all in the mind...you can also see practices like neurophysiology,neurotechnology,meditation and biofeedback(which i practice and it's the best exercise for concentration and it is also used for healing various psychological disorders).So to go back my answer to your question is:What defines the nature of a man is the state of his own individual mind...

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So just to emphasize my

So just to emphasize my point here is a picture.it's simple really(and altogether complex)variations in these frequencies could result in different behavioral patterns;)

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I apologize for my prolonged

I apologize for my prolonged absence. All too often the Balance requires immediate attention. As a rilmani, I would be remiss if I ignored my duty to the preservation of all things in favor of philosophical discussion.

I will now endeavor to address each of you and your points where I feel clarification is needed.

Evil wrote:

Satisfaction.

It is told that no charity is truly praiseworthy, because it is never done for no other reason than to help another. Even when those clueless plaadins claim that they help others without expecting anything in return, they are already getting an important thing: Satisfaction.

It is often said that nothing can match the satisfaction of a job well done. Doesn't this mean that the greatest rewad one can achieve is the satisfaction of achieving his goals?

If I recall correctly, a Prime philosopher has said similar things. Kant, I believe, has suggested that there is no such thing as altruism in the world -- that people do good deeds for the satisfaction of doing them. Am I correct in guessing you agree with this Prime?

Is it possible to do a good deed simply because it is the good or "right" thing to do? Is it possible to accomplish something and do so where satisfaction is not a factor?

Quote:

Heres the deal: Elysium, which represents the ultimate good, traps its victims. It first slowly alters a berks psyche. The berk slowly becomes more optimistic and easygoing. He will not be disappointed or heart brokeen. In the end he will believe that where he is is where he wants to be and what he is is what he wants to be. He will be content. And once you are content, once you are satisfied, there is no reason for you to live anymore. Other than survival, you have accomplished your life goal. At this point, he will be absorbed to the "plane of ultimate good".

Gray Waste, the exact opposite of Elysium does the same with a different way. It makes you believe that there's no point to anything. you slowly loose all interest in life and its concerns, its joys and its sadnesses. Nothing is really worth it. Even if you do it, you do it for no real reason. This is hell in its perfect form. You can imagine heaven in hell, hoping one day you will be saved, pardoned, relieved of your tortures. But what if you think that there's no point to being saved? The result is the same. You have lost your reason of existence. Youwill be just a grey husk of protomaterail waiting to be absorbed in the "plane of ultimate evil".

I see what you say here. However, the Gray Waste strips desire from mortals. In light of that, could not apathy and despair define the nature of a man? Is satisfaction the only key motivation? What of the other Outer Planes?

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lsdfjkdsf wrote: What

lsdfjkdsf wrote:

What defines the nature of a man are his hopes and his dreams. Some people dream of money and power, while other of creating a better world. Some men dream of glory, some dream of family, some dream of friendship, and some dream of love. Some men dream small, some men dream big.

Once a man has a dream, he will go to any lengths to achive it. For those who dream of power, there is no sin too horrible to contemplate. For those who dream of love and family, there is no torture they would not withstand to protect their loved ones. Often, they don't even realize the true identity of their dreams.

When you understand the dream's of a man, you understand his nature. Yet there are some people, some dreams, that lie outside the scope of mortal understanding.

Would you agree with Evil's post before yours that states that satisfaction is the primary driving force? I am uncertain because you seem to be suggesting a similar concept from a different angle. Yours sounds born more of idealistic drive. It seems as though you suggest a man is defined by his desire to become greater than himself, while Evil's approach comes from a more jaded point of view.

Would it be fair to say that it is not satisfaction itself but the pursuit of satisfaction that defines a man?

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Stal_Shurroth wrote: Ah,

Stal_Shurroth wrote:

Ah, but where does the drive for satisfaction, or the wellspring of hopes and dreams spring forth from? To answer the question posed by CoA, let us journey into the realm of experience for a moment. Suppose an atrocity happens, in broad daylight, for many to see. How will different people see it happen? Naturally, as people exist in seperate locations from one another, this atrocity would be viewed from a variety of different perspectives and vantage points, and that's just the physical nature of experience. Then comes the various viewpoints, opinions and belifes of the various viewers of the atrocity. For instance, a sensate committing suicide and with a cleric handy to ressurect him might find the whole experience quite enlightening... but would a dustman agree? Of course not; for a dustman to commit suicide, and then have a cleric prepared to raise him would be anti-thema to his value system. Neither the sensate or the dustman are right or wrong, nor good or evil for how they would each approach such a situation, but never the less, we have here two very different experiences of the same event. So to come back to the atrocity, is it nessesarily an atrocity to every observer, or for the revolutionary who has commited the atrocity, is it a gleaming step of glory? I will remain with my origional point: The Powers drives us to experience things, they motivate us with dreams and hopes, they fill us with the instinct for satisfaction, because ultimately, they need us to experience things. Do they need our worship? No, but worship allows them to keep tabs on which of us are going to have the experiences they desire most... the juciest experiences, if you will.

So the defining nature of a man is not in himself, but is something instilled in him by a higher force? What about those men that do not worship, or those like the Athar that do not believe the Powers are gods?

It seems to me that experiences can change the nature of a man -- a question I intend to pursue much later. However, I am not quite clear on how they define a man. Are you supposing that experiences tell how a man will react to the hypothetical "atrocity" you suggested? That a man with good experiences will be defined in such a way that he feels sorrow or anger, while a man with evil experiences will be defined such that he feels elation?

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Yemeth wrote: Very good

Yemeth wrote:

Very good question indeed Center Of All...i will clarify(as you said we should)that i will not try to answer this question in character.So let's see the three previous answers from Evil,lsdfjkdsf and Stal Shurroth.They are all very good answers.but ultimately they lead to one thing.

 The Mind

This is what defines the nature of man.you can see it both ways.a planescapey way and a neurophysiological one.If the Powers drive us to do things then what creates the powers is our brain.To find satisfaction in your life you must do something that your brain likes to feel satisfied(we're not all programmed to react to the same stimulus).Our hopes,dreams likes and dislikes how we feel and think and how our bodies react it's all because of how the individual's brain functions.So it's all in the mind...you can also see practices like neurophysiology,neurotechnology,meditation and biofeedback(which i practice and it's the best exercise for concentration and it is also used for healing various psychological disorders).So to go back my answer to your question is:What defines the nature of a man is the state of his own individual mind...

*chuckles*

I appreciate the neurology lesson. However, my approach to this is philosophical, not scientific. My intent is to receive answers that, in character or not, can be placed within the framework of the Planescape setting, hence my pseudo-in-character posting.

So the state of his mind defines a man. Would you care to elaborate in a less scientific answer? It sounds as if this could go in line with Stal Shurroth's answer. But it begs the question of what establishes a state of mind. Is it experiences, like Stal Shurroth suggests? Or is it something else?

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So what is a god? It is a

So what is a god? It is a word we use to describe something. Even the powers are not so all-powerful that they themselves cannot die. And what becomes of teir experiences? They are passed on to something larger and greater than themselves. Some call them Overdieties, some call them Super-Powers, but even those are to some degree mortal in the sense that there are records of the deaths of a few of these ultimate beings. Ultimately, all experience filters up to a force, power or intelligence so supreme that it is beyond our comprehending, a god of overgods, for lack of better words. Belive in powers or not, they still exist. Worship or not, powers can still have an influence on mortal goings-on. In fact, the only sure way to escape them is to go to Sigil, and even then there is the question of wether you're entering the realm and domain of another being like that... if you catch my meaning. How many backwater prime clueless have you known to be damn fine at gambling, and a little divination reveals that Olli favors the fool, despite the fact that the clueless doesn't even know who Ollidamara is? Ignorance or refusal of a Power does not mean that they have no effect. Quite to the contrary, the very act of refusing deific influence has an influence all it's own, for the purpose of attaining a rather unique experience for the powers to explore: a world without them.

Also please note that I do not speak of predestiny, only instinct driving us to experience everything we can. That instinct is what defines us.

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Actually it does The

Actually it does;)

The state of mind is changeable.when we experience something new the brain creates new neurons.it grows and becomes stronger(sharper).so maybe our fellow sensate is right after all(but don't be so quick to differentiate my ''scientific'' to your philosophical approach.i just explain why in the first place you are capable for ''philosophical'' discussion)

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Yemeth wrote: Actually it

Yemeth wrote:

Actually it does;)

The state of mind is changeable.when we experience something new the brain creates new neurons.it grows and becomes stronger(sharper).so maybe our fellow sensate is right after all(but don't be so quick to differentiate my ''scientific'' to your philosophical approach.i just explain why in the first place you are capable for ''philosophical'' discussion)

You seem to miss the point.

Let me rephrase.

In ages past, before people in the modern world understood neurology or how the brain creates neurons and grows, philosophers speculated on what made a man tick. What his drives and his needs are -- they did all of this without the science that Earth has today, and they did an admirable job of it. This is the essence I am trying to capture in my discussion here. The matters of neurology and science are irrelevant to me. Likewise, the "why" I can have a philosophical discussion does not appeal to me. I desire more abstract concepts for this debate.

Please refrain from explaining based on neurology. That is not the focus of this discussion. This discussion is about thinking and feeling, not about science.

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Stal_Shurroth wrote: So

Stal_Shurroth wrote:

So what is a god? It is a word we use to describe something. Even the powers are not so all-powerful that they themselves cannot die. And what becomes of teir experiences? They are passed on to something larger and greater than themselves. Some call them Overdieties, some call them Super-Powers, but even those are to some degree mortal in the sense that there are records of the deaths of a few of these ultimate beings. Ultimately, all experience filters up to a force, power or intelligence so supreme that it is beyond our comprehending, a god of overgods, for lack of better words. Belive in powers or not, they still exist. Worship or not, powers can still have an influence on mortal goings-on. In fact, the only sure way to escape them is to go to Sigil, and even then there is the question of wether you're entering the realm and domain of another being like that... if you catch my meaning. How many backwater prime clueless have you known to be damn fine at gambling, and a little divination reveals that Olli favors the fool, despite the fact that the clueless doesn't even know who Ollidamara is? Ignorance or refusal of a Power does not mean that they have no effect. Quite to the contrary, the very act of refusing deific influence has an influence all it's own, for the purpose of attaining a rather unique experience for the powers to explore: a world without them.

Also please note that I do not speak of predestiny, only instinct driving us to experience everything we can. That instinct is what defines us.

So then would you say that it is the powers we know that influence us or something greater than even that? It seems you suggest a sort of hierarchy that builds up upon itself until it reaches some unknown pinnacle. Is each layer responsible for affecting and driving the step immediately below it? Or does the authority to motivate trickle down from the highest point and flow through each step until it finally reaches mortals?

Finally, if you had to speculate, what would you say that pinnacle at the top of the hierarchy is?

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Not so much a heirchy as

Not so much a heirchy as much as a natural order. The powers gain experience from thier followers, non worshipers' experiences go strait to the source, and it's more internal than origionally guessed. Not an authority, but rather more like a system to describe where those experiences go. and as for the pinnacle, there are some primes who describe something called Tao (pronounced Dow) which is the source of all things, but they teach that to attempt to give it name, label or description neither would nor even could do it proper justice. from thier texts: "Names can be named, but not the Eternal Name". To do better justice to the whole concept, it is easier to talk about it, rather than try to name it. Foremost, this source is where all experience will be collected and reside at the bleakers' "end of time". I suspect that this "end" the bleakers speak of cannot occur until every possible experience, in every possible variation makes it's way to the source. And source of what, you might ask? The source of the instinct which I describe.

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Center of All wrote:You

Center of All wrote:
You seem to miss the point. Let me rephrase. In ages past, before people in the modern world understood neurology or how the brain creates neurons and grows, philosophers speculated on what made a man tick. What his drives and his needs are -- they did all of this without the science that Earth has today, and they did an admirable job of it. This is the essence I am trying to capture in my discussion here. The matters of neurology and science are irrelevant to me. Likewise, the "why" I can have a philosophical discussion does not appeal to me. I desire more abstract concepts for this debate. Please refrain from explaining based on neurology. That is not the focus of this discussion. This discussion is about thinking and feeling, not about science.

You very curiously reject an important aspect of this discussion, then.  Physiology is important in defining a species' nature.  The limitations imposed by our senses and our genetic heuristics shape our thoughts, be we human or elf or any other species. An ettin thinks with two brains, and an ooze with a distributed brain.  These affect their natures drastically.  Who among us has not heard the story of the mage who spent too much time shapeshifted, his thoughts becoming bestial and inhuman?  Have you ever attempted to reason with a shifted lycanthrope in the same way you did when he was humanoid, only to find that his reactions were starkly different, instinctive and predatory?  How many times has a lifetime of strong drink or a single swift blow to the head left a man a different person?

Some beings transcend physicality.  Some, such as spirits, or beings made of the stuff of philosophy -- like yourself, O rilmani, and other exemplars -- possess thought patterns for which the accident of physical appearance may be nigh irrelevant.  But for mortals bound to bodies, bodies are of paramount importance in defining our natures.  It is clear to anyone who sees a petitioner that we have something which is separate from that body, and survives it, but the accident of birth in a given species is a defining point of existence.  A human who dies and is reincarnated (by birth -- mighty spells might have a different effect) as a dwarf is now a dwarf, with a past life as a human.

Your original question could have a fairly good answer in the form of "a man is anything that must sense and think about the world in the patterns defined by a human brain." 

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Jem wrote: You very

Jem wrote:
You very curiously reject an important aspect of this discussion, then.  Physiology is important in defining a species' nature.  The limitations imposed by our senses and our genetic heuristics shape our thoughts, be we human or elf or any other species. An ettin thinks with two brains, and an ooze with a distributed brain.  These affect their natures drastically.  Who among us has not heard the story of the mage who spent too much time shapeshifted, his thoughts becoming bestial and inhuman?  Have you ever attempted to reason with a shifted lycanthrope in the same way you did when he was humanoid, only to find that his reactions were starkly different, instinctive and predatory?  How many times has a lifetime of strong drink or a single swift blow to the head left a man a different person?

Physiology, or state of mind?  I reject the idea that neuroscience is important in discussing philosophy and motivation because for millennia, mortal Prime philosophers have speculated on the defining natures of men everywhere.  They did so without any knowledge of neurology whatsoever.  They did not understand the brain as Earth mortals believe they understand it now, and yet they still speculated on the nature of man.  Thucydides, as I mentioned, suggested that greed, fear, and rational self-interest motivated people.  The Chinese philosopher Mengzi offered that humanity is inherently and instinctively good-aligned, while his later counterpart Xunzi proposed that humanity is inherently and instinctively evil-aligned. 

Physiology perhaps, although I would argue that your examples here fall in line with Stal Shurroth's views on experiences rather than with Yemeth's explanations of neurology.  I would also argue that your idea better answers "What can change the nature of a man" rather than my question.  Though I am beginning to believe that I did a poor job of putting forth what theme I sought from this question.  I shall explain at the end of my post.

Quote:
Some beings transcend physicality.  Some, such as spirits, or beings made of the stuff of philosophy -- like yourself, O rilmani, and other exemplars -- possess thought patterns for which the accident of physical appearance may be nigh irrelevant.  But for mortals bound to bodies, bodies are of paramount importance in defining our natures.  It is clear to anyone who sees a petitioner that we have something which is separate from that body, and survives it, but the accident of birth in a given species is a defining point of existence.  A human who dies and is reincarnated (by birth -- mighty spells might have a different effect) as a dwarf is now a dwarf, with a past life as a human.

In this instance, I could perhaps see how physical form affects the mental thought.  However, is it entirely physical or does the person's surroundings have to do with his nature?

Quote:
Your original question could have a fairly good answer in the form of "a man is anything that must sense and think about the world in the patterns defined by a human brain."

Perhaps I have been looking at this from a more human perspective.  However, what I am trying to accomplish here is get a feel for what people believe is an overarching theme or emotion that drives mortals as a whole.  It could certainly be broken down to each individual mortal race -- even a dwarf has a driving force, be it greed or pride or anything else -- but that would take an eternity to accomplish.  I am looking more for ideas like what Thucydides, Mengzi, or Xunzi offer.  So as a whole, what motivation defines a mortal? 

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Jem
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Let me again in response

Let me again in response paraphrase your question then, to see if I have it more accurately.  You are not interested so much in what might actually set or define a being as a man, as, rather, in nailing down the consequences of what that definition entails.  (The meta-game answers being respectively "a character is a man if given the human racial template," and "such a character gets an extra feat and base skill point.")

The in-game answer would seem to be "humans are defined by their adaptability," as the designers portray it.  The human racial paragon class plays up this theme further, as does the "Races of Destiny" sourcebook.  If we combine this with the question of what does the defining, we come to the suggestion that humans are notable for having mentalities particularly well suited for probing their circumstances, assimilating the information thus received, and responding to this knowledge.

Your final questions is more along the lines of "what motivates a man."   This is by no means equivalent to defining a man; claiming that motivations define someone is by no means axiomatic to me.  At any rate, the question is also so broad as to be meaningless.  Some human has had almost every motivation ever conceived, in proportions varying between persons and throughout a single person's lifetime.  There is a time to cast away stones and a time to gather stones together.  Concerning which are the overriding motivations, we might turn to Maslow's hierarchy of needs: survival and reproduction are driving needs for any mortal, followed by shelter and security, then emotional and intellectual fulfillment, social status and so forth; being a social animal, these drives too can be proportioned among the group, with a few members of the society willing to forego security (become a soldier) or reproduction (become a priest) in order to benefit the group overall.

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Nice post Jem.Center Of

Nice post Jem.Center Of All if your question is what motivates a man rather than what defines the nature of a man then i think that the correct answer would be that desire motivates a man.the problem is i don't have any idea how are you going to use this in a game.can you give me some more info on where you plan to use this so i can help as best i can??but i think that this question is TOO abstract so i don't really understand what you want to get out of it.

Planescape IS about philosophy and belief AND abstract concepts but it has nothing to do with real-life philosophers.because philosophers in real life are different from a fantasy world.Reality in our world does not change by belief.That's why we have Signers instead of Solipsists and Fated instead of Darwinists or whatever.So how are you going to use what Thucidedes or Mengzi said in a Planescape game?Like building a faction around their philosophies?:?

Also i would like to say that science and philosophy are not so different in the end.in my opinion they are just different ways to approach a truth.Did you know that monks in Tibet had a meeting with neurophysiologists to share their experience on the human brain through their meditations?Don't worry i'm not going to discuss science again on this thread

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Jem wrote: Let me again in

Jem wrote:

Let me again in response paraphrase your question then, to see if I have it more accurately.  You are not interested so much in what might actually set or define a being as a man, as, rather, in nailing down the consequences of what that definition entails.  (The meta-game answers being respectively "a character is a man if given the human racial template," and "such a character gets an extra feat and base skill point.")

The in-game answer would seem to be "humans are defined by their adaptability," as the designers portray it.  The human racial paragon class plays up this theme further, as does the "Races of Destiny" sourcebook.  If we combine this with the question of what does the defining, we come to the suggestion that humans are notable for having mentalities particularly well suited for probing their circumstances, assimilating the information thus received, and responding to this knowledge.

Yemeth wrote:
Nice post Jem.Center Of All if your question is what motivates a man rather than what defines the nature of a man then i think that the correct answer would be that desire motivates a man.the problem is i don't have any idea how are you going to use this in a game.can you give me some more info on where you plan to use this so i can help as best i can??but i think that this question is TOO abstract so i don't really understand what you want to get out of it.

I believe I may see a where we reach an impasse here. I am not looking for a game-related answer. Nor am I really looking for a specific "correct" answer. I am looking for an opinion, a thought, a speculation. If it is game-related, that is fine.

I am not yet prepared to reveal what I plan to do with these responses. Suffice to say, it is Planescape-related, and it will be shared with the Planewalker community, but it is not for a game. You might call this and other questions of mine "idea hunting."

Jem wrote:

Your final questions is more along the lines of "what motivates a man."   This is by no means equivalent to defining a man; claiming that motivations define someone is by no means axiomatic to me.  At any rate, the question is also so broad as to be meaningless.[  Some human has had almost every motivation ever conceived, in proportions varying between persons and throughout a single person's lifetime.  There is a time to cast away stones and a time to gather stones together.

I disagree with the "meaninglessness" of the question. Please see more below.

Concerning which are the overriding motivations, we might turn to Maslow's hierarchy of needs: survival and reproduction are driving needs for any mortal, followed by shelter and security, then emotional and intellectual fulfillment, social status and so forth; being a social animal, these drives too can be proportioned among the group, with a few members of the society willing to forego security (become a soldier) or reproduction (become a priest) in order to benefit the group overall.

The idea that basic needs are the defining principle is something I can accept as a viable answer to the question. I do not believe it is the correct one -- I do not believe there is a correct one, but it is a thought-provoking idea.

Yemeth wrote:
Planescape IS about philosophy and belief AND abstract concepts but it has nothing to do with real-life philosophers.because philosophers in real life are different from a fantasy world.Reality in our world does not change by belief.That's why we have Signers instead of Solipsists and Fated instead of Darwinists or whatever.So how are you going to use what Thucidedes or Mengzi said in a Planescape game?Like building a faction around their philosophies?Puzzled

Also i would like to say that science and philosophy are not so different in the end.in my opinion they are just different ways to approach a truth.Did you know that monks in Tibet had a meeting with neurophysiologists to share their experience on the human brain through their meditations?Don't worry i'm not going to discuss science again on this thread

I am familiar with the Tibetan concept of the tulpa. Fascinating idea, really. One that Signers latch onto readily.

Regarding your first point here, as you say, Planescape is about philosophy and belief. I do not believe that makes Thucydides (though he was a historian, not a philosopher), Mengzi, Darwinists, Solpsists, or any other "real world" philosophers or philosophical groups any less relevant. They do have beliefs that can be applied to Planescape.

I suppose my question may be better stated as "what defines the nature of men?" or "what defines the nature of mortals?" As I explained in my first post, Thucydides believed that greed, fear, and rational self-interest defines men. He reached this conclusion after analyzing the trends of humanity and its leaders during the Peloponnesian War, by looking at how and why people acted the way they did. And so I pose the question to you in this form. What defines men, people, mortals? Is it desire (the Fated)? Fear? Aspiration to become greater than themselves (the Godsmen)? A quest for glory? What is it that sets mortals apart from other creatures and truly defines their essence? Does that help clarify the question? I apologize for the vagueness and difficulty. We rilmani are too accustomed to working secretly that occasionally we do so without realizing.

Again, I do not believe there is necessarily a "correct" answer from the philosophical standpoint. One man will say greed and power defines his people, while another will say a desire to do good defines them. What do you think? And you need not necessarily use Planescape-specific examples. I am content to see an answer based solely on the "real world" or on a particular mortal race in Planescape. I would prefer answers that are more overarching than one specific mortal race, but I believe the concepts can be adapted and applied to mortality as a whole. It is not a flawless process, but little in this world is.

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This answer will be the

This answer will be the same Prime Material response I give when Primes press me for a similiar answer, usually by people asking theological questions concerning the Chaotic Good deity of Jesus or the Lawful Neutral Yahweh...

I believe there is no right or wrong thinking, only right or wrong intention. If a person is capable of committing a beneficial act at the cost of another person's happiness or well-being, then that person is inherently a danger to the stability of a society. Its a very Mercykiller response, but I've never believed that there was a right answer, only a slew of wrong answers and the judgment to disregard them. Reincarnation and rebirth may be well and good, but they're quite irrelavent to actually BEING a good person NOW. If you are merely striving for 'moral excellence' now because you are thinking it will be rewarded in an unseen afterlife, then you are not truly an altruist, merely patiently awaiting the reaping of your strained selfishness. BUT if it keeps from impeding on the lives of better people, then I'll accept that sort of skewed Godsman thinking.

I'm sad to say, the last philopopher I agreed with was Arthur Schopenhauer and he wasn't a cheery fellow, aside from a few Zen koans of loyalty  and excellence from the Zen thinking of certain Edo-era Japanese authors. Whatever 'alignment' one attaches to a person, they are inherently a selfish creature and therefore the only sane response is to gauge their actions, not their 'natures'.

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re

(With a name like Jack of Tears I'd almost have to be a member of the Bleak Cabal wouldn't I?)

Delusions, cutter, self delusion drives men - just take a gaze at this conversation and you'll see what I mean. Powers, super-powers, brain waves, all delusions that convince men they have an excuse to do what they want anyway. "The powers told me", "my brain waves made me do it", all looking for a meaning behind it all when there isn't one. Delusions keep people going - the belief that something is making what they do meaningful; the delusion that they deserve their neighbors land because their grand poobah said it was so.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the Delusions are the meaning of it all - there ain't no meaning berk - but they are the wash that makes people Think there's a meaning ... bloody hells, just look around the Cage, people like to call it the city of belief - it's the city of self delusion.

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