What constitutes...?

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Emperor Xan's picture
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What constitutes...?

My deadline was pushed back to 8/31, so I'm still churning out this book...lol

I'm at a crossroads, however. In order to fill the requisite number of pages, I need a bit of help. The book can't cover every possible aspect of infinitely-sized realities, but it can cover some of the major themes and concepts associates with four metaphysical concetps. Chiefly, good, evil, law, and chaos. What themes, concepts, and traits do you associate with either of these four ideals and why? This will help me include stuff that I may have overlooked in my layout of the book.

An example

Good:

love (spiritural) - with no emphasis on the physical, the purity of love is reflected in its willingness to overlook the flesh for what lies within

benevolence - the ability to give to those who are in need, no matter their views on life; the act of charity at the expense of a cause shows what one is willing to give up or endure in the interm to preserve one's ideals

Any help you give will be greatly appreciated.

Bob the Efreet's picture
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What constitutes...?

I think mercy is a thing in good. I was also tempted to say compassion, but that seems rather similar to the benevolence you listed. Evil, I'd say, is mostly defined by selfishness at the expense of others. As in, you'll do things that harm other people solely because it benefits yourself.

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What constitutes...?

Good requires a capacity for mercy. Implied in this is a capacity for forgiveness. A character of good should avoid being a vessel for destruction or harm and should recognize that killing an evil being is not a good act in itself. It takes more than opposition to evil to be really good. A good character is not motivated out of hate, revenge, or greed. Good often entails personal sacrifice.

Evil lacks compunctions about hurting others. An evil character feels that his needs supercede others, and will harm others to obtain what he wants. He may use deception, violence, or manipulation to achieve his goals, but his methods are marked by self-interest, no concern for others' rights or dignity, no regard for dangerous consequences, and a willingness to cause suffering to others. An evil character may well be ruled by emotions such as anger, hate, desire, or those other bad things that Yoda taught us about.

I would also suggest that there be a definite idea that evil is much more accessible than good. If you behead a helpless prisoner out of a feeling of retribution for wrongs he has committed, you could still cling to your ideals of morality if you feel repentance for the act. However, if such behavior should become routine, you can probably expect to become evil pretty damn fast. It shouldn't take too much evil to slide that way, but to go back to good alignment, it should take more serious action. Either way, it's the change of heart that makes you want to do it, rather than the action itself, that causes the alignment shift.

Perhaps all of that is a certain bias toward good. As a society, we of course would rather have good than evil. I'm unsure of whether or not my idea that good is more demanding than evil is a reflection of my personal desire to glorify good and vilify evil. Perhaps more importantly, is it even possible not to glorify good and vilify evil? Can one recognize good from evil in an absolute sense and still manage not to prefer good?

Obviously, there should be some room for maneuvering. Alignment does not dictate or restrict what a character does, but merely reflects what a character does. At the same time, a character should have some room to act in mild violation of his alignment. A character who has a certain weakness for shiny gold coins isn't prohibited from maintaining a good alignment, but should generally answer to a higher calling.

nick012000's picture
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What constitutes...?

'Rhys' wrote:
Perhaps more importantly, is it even possible not to glorify good and vilify evil?

See the 'humorous psychotic' archetype seen in such characters as Black Mage from 8-bit Theater, and Belkar from The Order of the Stick.

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What constitutes...?

'Rhys' wrote:
Perhaps all of that is a certain bias toward good. As a society, we of course would rather have good than evil. I'm unsure of whether or not my idea that good is more demanding than evil is a reflection of my personal desire to glorify good and vilify evil. Perhaps more importantly, is it even possible not to glorify good and vilify evil? Can one recognize good from evil in an absolute sense and still manage not to prefer good?

So often one believes themselves to be doing "good" or acting virtuous but instead causes suffering. Whether or not someone feels a tinge of guilt (or doubt?) even when they belive themselves to be right, and whether or not that changes the absolutes of Good is a question better left for philosophers without clubs. An intresting discussion to be sure.

I think that's the very point though, good is nearly always preferable, espescially in the Cantian sense. The question goes, if everyone was doing this, would it make the world a better place for everyone, without harming anyone. Which is what makes it differint from True Neutrality in my opinion. Balance would ask what it "better" for the majority (or would this be law? Then again, when taken in its strictest sense, balance is a kind of law) while harming the least amount of people for maximum gain. Evil I guess wouldn't consider how many or how damaging its affects, simply that the act is done. I guess in this way one can justify evil by saying occasionally extreme measures are neccessary, the Road to Hell is afterall paved with good intentions.

But I digress from the topic. An often unvouched for ideal on the outer planes is that of Numonisis (s/p) or that which leaves a mortal (perhaps even paramortal, proxy, or power?) in awe, but without alienating them.
Perhaps an individual wandering across seas of endless Good finds the hearts impression of their own home, finds the idealized vision of their thoughts of home, and goes from it with a greater understanding of themselves and innate ideals of purity or virtue, forever changed by something within themselves. An ideal like this somewhere between dream and upper plane.

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What constitutes...?

'Emperor Xan' wrote:
Chiefly, good, evil, law, and chaos. What themes, concepts, and traits do you associate with either of these four ideals and why?

Four? A common misconception.

There is Order, Disorder, and a Balance between the two. This Balance is commonly referred to as "good".

The so-called Evil with a capital "E" is merely a lack of balance between Order and Disorder. Too much order brings tyranny, too little - anarchy. A balance between the two brings the only undisputed "goodness" there is - life and cyclical progression thereof. This is the purpose, essence, virtue, which is recognized instinctively by all sentient, living beings.

A disruption of Balance results in the disruption of Good-Life-Continuity, and is usually manifested as undeath - a state of emptiness, a closed system which can never advance further, universally recognized/labeled as "Evil". But this ... absence ... is not a principle of the same order of magnitude as the first three.

Even the supposed exemplars of the supposed fourth principle are fakes, intruders, opportunists. The baern are a myth. The General is faceless, and there is only emptiness behind its mask. The yugoloth are puppeteers of those who see themselves as puppets.

See here for a quasi-mythical illustration of this.

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What constitutes...?

'Nemui' wrote:
'Emperor Xan' wrote:
Chiefly, good, evil, law, and chaos. What themes, concepts, and traits do you associate with either of these four ideals and why?

Four? A common misconception.

There is Order, Disorder, and a Balance between the two. This Balance is commonly referred to as "good".

The so-called Evil with a capital "E" is merely a lack of balance between Order and Disorder. Too much order brings tyranny, too little - anarchy. A balance between the two brings the only undisputed "goodness" there is - life and cyclical progression thereof. This is the purpose, essence, virtue, which is recognized instinctively by all sentient, living beings.

A disruption of Balance results in the disruption of Good-Life-Continuity, and is usually manifested as undeath - a state of emptiness, a closed system which can never advance further, universally recognized/labeled as "Evil". But this ... absence ... is not a principle of the same order of magnitude as the first three.

Even the supposed exemplars of the supposed fourth principle are fakes, intruders, opportunists. The baern are a myth. The General is faceless, and there is only emptiness behind its mask. The yugoloth are puppeteers of those who see themselves as puppets.

See here for a quasi-mythical illustration of this.


Methinks you're pushing too hard for belief and its makings if all you can see are three. It's five forces which make the multiverse, from this side of the continuum.

Matter, substance, which exists. Energy, motion, which acts. Time and space, defined by the meeting of the two. The dark antithesis which arises from the decay of all these three. And thought and perception, arising from all the prior gathered together.

Now thought might - might, by virtue of being the only one with a speaking voice - attempt to impose aspects of itself on the other forces. Matter becomes "Law", structure arising from the dance of atoms. Energy is seen as "Chaos", disorder inherent in the constant of motion. Time labeled as "Balance", regulating how its siblings interact. Entropy is called "Evil", destroying all semblance of shape or identity in the long run. And sometimes, forgetting humility or decrying zeal, Thought will even dub itself as "Good".

All a sham, of course. Maya, the illusion before all truth. The forces simply are, and need no labels of morality to govern what they do. Matter can bring chaos, energy order; time can corrupt and entropy bring new life. And the naming of things - with the chance to rename them yet again, in some other turn of the Wheel - can bring about the greatest balance of them all.

Emperor Xan's picture
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What constitutes...?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but the debate on the conjecture of what makes a cosmology isn't helping me. If it were strictly for Planescape, I would be thorouly enjoying this for the sake of items I could use in my own campaigns, but as it stands, the book I'm writing is a generic, rulesless book. It's intended to be used with any game system. Thus, I've had to divide the book into a few sample chapters, namely: Celestial, Infernal, Stasis & Probability (as necessitated by my contract). The actual metaphysical map I've been using resembles a compass with cardinal and intercardinal points. Since I can't seem to get it to work in ASCII, I'm just going to provide the directions as it would look on a compass and hopefully someone else could draw it for me.

NW: Stasis (order)
N: Vitality (positive energy)
NE: Celestial (good)
SW: Infernal (evil)
S: Entropy
SE: Probability (chaos)

W: Temporal (absolute past)
E: Panprobaiblity (all possible futures)

Space-time flows through a cosmology from West to East as represented by the Temproal/Panprobability metaphysical traits.

Hopefully this helps you with what I'm looking for along with this unedited excerpt.:

Themes: Themes are the overall values expressed by the plane. What this means is that the plane and its inhabitants possess this value as part of their appearance and/or temperament. The polarity (or polarities) a plane has does skew these values appropriately towards the metaphysical pole, but it doesn’t override them to the point that the polarity outweighs the themes. This is important as the higher the degree of separation a plane has from the cosmology’s origin, the stronger the metaphysical value is supposed to influence the themes, concepts, and ideals of the plane so that they are in keeping with the plane’s polar nature.

A plane can have as many themes as you wish it to possess. The themes do not impart any specific bonuses or penalties unless you assign a statistical value to them for the game system you use. The polarization already imparts bonuses and penalties to a plane, so any additional effects you add will adjust this value. It is recommended that themes are not used in this manner without some form of justification for why the adjustments made by the plane’s affiliation with a metaphysical concept aren’t enough to show the plane’s nature. If the adjustment only affects a specific item within the context of a plane’s themes, then the adjustment should be applied. This warning only concerns global adjustments which would increase the bonus/penalty value that the degree of separation is meant to represent.

Concept: Concepts are the core values of a plane that the inhabitants are most attuned to. Concepts are always related to the themes. In fact, you can think of this value as being a concept of the plane’s overall themes. The concepts help you to determine how the inhabitants of a plane should be reflections and active participants of the plane’s themes. You may want to limit the number of concepts that are associated with each to one or two. The more concepts you have, the more difficult and unwieldy it becomes to express the themes of the plane without them seeming watered down and too generalized.

You should think of concepts as not only their own individual values, but also as a refinement of the themes they are associated with. Concepts aren’t meant to be subsequent values, however. It is possible to have a plane with a neutral theme, but have a concept that takes the neutral (or pure) quality of the plane’s metaphysical polarity as the active reflection of the tenets the inhabitants embody. The point is for concepts to represent the emotional values of a plane’s themes.

Ideals: Ideals are also meant to serve as a further narrowing of the theme a plane expresses to a more specific subject. However, where concepts apply to the living creatures (excluding unintelligent plants), ideals apply specifically to the plane’s landscape. Ideals should thus be treated like concepts in that you should limit one or two ideals per theme. If you use more than this, chances are that you will run into problems with the plane seeming too generic and lacking in the exotic qualities that the core values are supposed to help you create. This is why it is suggested that you use a couple of ideals at most per theme; they will help you create the unique look of your plane, but not to the point that they overwhelm it.

How do ideals truly differ from concepts? For one, they are meant to apply to the land and to represent the physical reflection of a plane’s themes as opposed to the active and more dynamic concepts that creatures are meant to be. This doesn’t mean to say that a plane’s landscape is locked into a static form because of the ideals you’ve chosen, but rather that the land will stay close to the subject of the theme that it is supposed to reflect. If a plane has love as the theme and comfort as the ideal, for example, then the plane will have a softer nature to it, perhaps not only looking pastoral, but also being soft to the touch.

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