What Can Cause a Fiend to Rise?

Unfortunately, I have nothing to say on the subject -which I do find intriguing- but I was just curious; where else did you ask this question Center-of-All? I'd like to see this other reply that intrigues you so.

 Ahh, Kantian morality, truly the finest tool Baator has developed thus far!

By this logic Aasimon are truly diabolical because their good actions are motivated by a desire to further the cause of 'good' in the multiverse and thereby thwart those that have been designated 'evil'.

To set the standard of good at this level is to destroy it and to promote evil, or at least a moral apathy, as all actions can, at some levels, be seen as being selfish.

eg. A man saves the soul of a child from a Yugoloth at great physical and financial cost to himself and is not recognised for doing so. He does this because he believes that this is the right thing to do. Therfore by performing this act his strength of convictions are bolstered by the evidence that there are in fact 'good' (as he defines it) people in the world. He also recieves a sense of satisfaction that the child is safe and will have the opportunity to grow up. Furthermore it could be argued that the man may be aware that he is tipping the multiversal scales towards 'goodness' (the side he supports) and thus he is merely attempting to metaphorically 'score a goal' for his side.

Therefore this man is in fact despicable because he has used the child as a pawn in the cosmic battle between good and evil, inadvertantly saving it's soul in the process.

"What can change the nature of a Fiend?"

To come back to the topic, I agree that ultimately belief can achieve anything on the Outer Planes, however Faces of Evil states that that Baatezu sometimes also 'rise', or slide from lawful to chaotic to avoid punishment from their superiors/peers after disobeying orders. Such beings are often never fully trusted by their new comrades but ironically this displays a lack of belief in the power of good to change the nature of a being by the paragons of that side of the cosmic battle.

I pose a question for you my friends.

Fiends are composed of pure belief  in the same way that mortals are composed of a combination of belief and matter.  But has been seen before, one's belief is not necessarily one's disposition.  All fiends are made of the form of belief classified by scholars as sub-type evil.  But across Sigil, fiends have been seen with certainly less than evil dispositions and alignments.  Neutral being the most common.

My question to you all is, when you speak, do you speak of a fiend's alignment?  Which does not coincide with their belief. 

or do you speak of their belief, the essence that they are made of?

I feel this is an important distinction as it defines what exactly is a  "risen fiend."  Is it one whose alignment is good but might still be made from evil belief?  Or is it one whose core essence has been altered to that of good?  Perhaps one is risen and the other is simply rehabilitated?

Center of All wrote:

I place these two together because they are, in a sense, related. In his explanation of DNA/gene manipulation, Dire Lemon suggests the same thing most of us already understand or believe -- fiends are naturally evil from the moment of their creation. However, assuming you can change a fiend's DNA and make the fiend neutral or good (assuming a fiend has DNA as we know it, since such concepts are not addressed in the Planescape setting short of alu-fiends, tieflings, and their ilk), is what you have still a fiend, or has your tampering made it something else? This does bring to mind further questions regarding DNA manipulation at large, but that is for another discussion. This one is strictly about fiends Jared, you mimic my initial question with your post. Part of my intention is to understand how people define the very questions you ask. What is a risen fiend and how does he reach that state? What moves him to goodness, and once he is there, does he retain the powers he had when he was evil? I encourage this discussion, which I participate in by asking questions of what people say, requesting they elaborate on why they believe certain points. So now, I invite you to answer your own questions for me.

 My personal view on this topic stem from the idea that all beings are capable of belief, even those made from belief.  All beings have a personality and alignment.  A fiend that does good deeds simply to feel good is not changing its essence, it is changing its disposition.  This would make the fiend an ally of the forces of good, but certainly not risen.  Being risen requires not only your own belief, but the belief and support of others.  Everyone believes that fiends are evil, and so they are.  But to believe that a specific fiend is not evil, requires an enormous amount of will, most of all the fiend's own.  Now I subscribe to the idea that when it comes to yourself, no one's belief has more of an impact than your own.  For a fiend to unwillingly raise in a way that it's core essense is changed, is one of the most difficult acts I could imagine, requiring the belief from countless other beings, each focused on this one specific fiend to raise.  If the fiend truely believes itself to be good and performs good acts, a substantially fewer number of individuals would be required to aid in this fiend's raising, possibly even none if the fiend is dedicated with a truely legendary focus and will.

  To summerize, it is easy to change one's alignment and disposition.  It is mearly a matter of a personality change.  It is a substantial act to change one's essense, requiring an immense amount of belief and will to achieve.

Ahh, now I understand clearly what you were asking.  The glabrezu in question, if it indeed was able to alter it's essence, would be noticed by the forces of good.  As has been seen in the past, the forces of good are all too eager to invite risen fiends into their realm, protecting and empowering them against their former masters.

In your example, it is my opinion that the fiend could rise by the power of the Prime's belief alone.  Whether or not this occurred is based on several factors.  The sincerity of the people in their worship and whether the fiend is aware of their worship being two important factors.  If the fiend is unaware of their worship as a god of good, he might not even notice his change in form or power.  It's possible he may wake up one day and realize that he has become a demigod to the forces of god, though more likely it will be a gradual change in which thoughts are slowly changed and his fiendish form begins to degrade and alter.

On the other hand, if the fiend is aware of the Prime's worship, it would be only a minor effort on his part to shrug off the belief by believing himself to be a fiend, and therefore evil.  The reason for this is as I stated before.  You have the most power over yourself when it comes to using belief to define what you are.

This power of self-belief works in reverse as well.  A fiend that believes itself good, and is truly dedicated to the forces of good and all that they stand for, may be able to raise on its own.  I emphasize the term "may" as I will explain momentarily.

It is this belief, this all-encompassing belief that fiends are evil, that keeps most fiends that that happen to question themselves and their actions, don't immediately raise by their own will.  While in all but the rarest cases, the belief of another is negligible  on your own person, but in the case of multiverse wide prejudices and stereotypes, the affect is amplified to all fiends.  This is extremely detrimental to those fiends that truly wish to raise.  It may simply be impossible for them to raise through their own belief.  Perhaps they don't have the will to break through the collective belief of the multiverse.  Perhaps there is a group of primes somewhere that they had harmed in the past, thus those particular prime's belief is more focused are this particular fiend. (A possible explanation for why it is common for a fiend that is in the process of trying to raise to be required to make amends with those that it has harmed)

You all seem to assume that it's against the very nature of a fiend to rise. Is it? OK, they are physical embodiment of evil. So it would appear as they were unable to become good.

But...

Why there are so many risen villains in the literature and other forms of art? Can't you remember any cruel and selfish people who changed their ways? Or at least tried to? Weren't the main dogma of some prime religion that anyone can become good if he wants? It seems that the concept of risen evil already exists. So if the fiends represent various form of evil, nothing prevents some of them to change their ways.

What's strange is that no one seem to mind if a celestial falls. It's taken as granted when a modron goes rogue and ceases to be an exemplar of law. That's risen fiends that puzzle greybeards so much they need to make some excuses for them...

I'm sorry for that digression, but I believe it was a part of the answer. A fiend is an exemplar of evil, but what is evil if not a conception that mortals have brought to life? Of course, it's a living, thinking embodiment of this philosophical force. I don't think it could rise just by believing it to be good.The Multiverse doesn't work this way, regardless what berks from now defunct Sign of One say. Rowan Darkwood was viewed as a noble, if sometimes rude, basher who believed in hard work somewhat too much. This belief didn't prevent him from becoming a fraud, traitor and usurper, who sought to take the entire Cage at little expense and caused a bloody war. A more simple example: I can convince a group of bubbers that under my cloak I hide some delicious strawberry wine. I can even make an illusion of the bottle to make it more plausible. But will the bub magically materialize in my hand? Of course it won't.

So if not the belief from outside, what can change the nature of a fiend? Obviously its own will could, but I don't think many fiends would be willing to try. They tend to view good beings as weaklings, fools or cowards. Many greybeards think that they can't even grasp the concept of good. It's certainly not true, given the fact that risen fiends actually do exist. But the process of becoming less vile must be similar as in the case of a mortal. It's it who decide.

And what could persuade it? Well, it can be a desire to understand his enemies. Isn't that why many celestials fall? I even believe it's the most frequent way of rising, as the unwilingness to change is the main obstacle. Fiends are masters of intrigue, so they are more than able to imagine what the other being would think.

It could be love. Of course, fiends shun this concept and consider it a weakness. And wouldn't risk assuming that love equals good. Even if a tanar'ri, yugoloth or baatezu became infatuated in somebody, it would most certainly try to resist this feeling. And the loved one is unlikely to believe his admirer. Of course even if he does, isn't it true old habits die hard? If he is a mortal, he may not survive the first manifestation of rage or jealousy. Another fiend also is not a good object of love, as the risk of betrayal skyrockets. A celestial perhaps would be the best option. Even then, the compatriots of both lovers  won't be happy to see such a relationship.

There is a possibility regret will do. However, it's very, very unlikely. I can't imagine a deed so horrible it would make a fiend repent, so I don't even consider this option.

It's theorerically possible a fiend can be made to act right. It won't make it good, but there is a possibility it may like it. Or at least consider that it's not the best fiend anyway, so maybe it's time to consider other options. It can be a defector from his camp.

But the main point is: it's the fiend who changes itself, not its surroundings or a group of mortals willing it do become good. Sign of One is dead so it's best to let their philosophy be put in the dead-book too. So why don't more fiends rise? Well, baatezu are simply too rigid to change their beliefs, once settled. Tanar'ri may consider it sometimes, but are they patient enough to not give up after a first failure? And the yugoloths... I guess they simply don't want it.

I agree that belief shapes the planes. But how it works? No one seem to have a good answer. In my opinion, though, it seems to work in more subtle ways. It rather makes things possible, than make them happen. A fiend doesn't turn good because someone believe it is. It's not like someone other's belief is bending its will the exact moment there will be enough people convinced. It's sufficient that most people believe that evil can be turned good. When a fiend repents, it doesn't cease to be what it once was. It does represent just another type of evil: evil redeemed.

I spoke against Signers, because I view your idea of exemplars somewhat similar to their. It seems as you considered their (even your!) free will as nonexistant, or secondary to the concept they represent. I don't want to challenge your belief, but I don't think even most exemplars would agree.

The dispute about fiend's will stopping him from becoming good is a matter of semantics. Does the fact it doesn't want to change its own nature mean it can't change its own nature? I don't think so. From its point of view, it has a choice and decides not to rise. And it's hard to tell the difference from the outside.

Your argument about infiltrators is, of course, valid. It doesn't, however, entirely refute my claim. When it decide to impersonate a risen fiend, it must learn how to think like a risen fiend. Therefore, it opens its mind for another point of view. It can reject it, of course, and many propably do. But if baatezu indoctrination fails...

As for the love, I don't think they are entirely incapable of it. It's propably hidden very deep, but it has to be there, as the rage inside the most holy of archons. After all, they are not the perfect embodiments of their concept, are they? Given the fact that all major races of fiends have their rites of promotion which purify them from unwanted traits, they are almost certainly less than perfect. And the love is credited by the mortals to blossom even in unfavorable conditions.

I believe the conditioning the least successful method, but perhaps there is some hope for it. It would be a daring and grand experiment to capture some specimens and experiment on them. Unfortunately, the fiends are quite deceptive and propably resistant. I'm afraid that the prisoner would corrupt their captors faster than they would be able to redeem it...

If I may make a suggestion on this particular approach.  I would recommend attempting to focus on the fiend's complementing alignment trait.  For example, a Tanar'ri may be kept imprisoned, restrained in both body and mind to such an extreme that it never knows freedom again.  The Tanari'ri would then be given a choice.  Willingly submit to good and be free again, or remain evil and be forever imprisoned.  The Tanar'ri, being as chaotic as it is evil, will eventually have to choose one over the other.  I estimate that half of such subjects would choose one side over the other, with the other side having made their decision, would be beyond reformation.

As a second example, take a Baatezu.  Only instead of taking away its freedom, something that it has never known to begin with, take away its purpose.  Baatezu are helpless without a purpose.  They would be trapped by their own innate need for structure and purpose.  The Baatezu would then be given the same choice as the Tanar'ri, Submit to good and be given both purpose and duty, or remain evil and never know purpose again.

Fascinating subject I've wandered into here.

Risen fiends should be exceedingly rare. As some have mentioned, Evil is a fundamental part of their being. As outsiders, a fiend is tied to their plane of existence in ways that a mortal cannot easily comprehend. For a Baatezu, Baator is much more than home - it is a part of them as much as they dwell within it.

Because of this, I generally consider (non-risen) fiends incapable of the positive emotions such as love, charity, etc. Likewise, non-fallen celestials are incapable of hate, etc. A fiend may confuse lust with love, or look for a hidden motive when presented with a charitable act.

On the concept of (fiendish) Essence vs. Alignment: For a fiend, they are intrinsically connected. A fiend must be evil, because of their fiendish nature.

So what would cause a fiend to rise? Two options exist: a STRONG external force (a Wish spell, some otherpotent magic) comes to mind. But that's an easy road. Personal choice is doubtful, for a fiend forced to do good, such as the baatezu saving the (future) tyrant from a rampaging dragon, always has an ulterior evil motive. Fiends can wait for centuries for their plans to come to fruition. 

So what are other ways that a fiend might be infected by goodness, and rise? In the planes, Good and Evil are material forces. But things don't always stay where they're supposed to be. In the module The Deva Spark, afragment of a deva's essence gets absorbed by a bebelit, IIRC. From this concept, we might find some clues.

We know that various adventurers wander into Baator to free loved ones, or venture into the Abyss to confront some powerful entity. In most cases, those good fools perish in the attempt. What happens to their souls? At times, the souls get trapped in whatever lower plane they happen to be on. Eventually, the soul of the good being is absorbed by the plane, but then it is rejected. The plane spits the goodness into a convenient host - a fiend.

Usually, the fiend is powerful and centered in itself enough to resist a minute infusion of goodness. But the seed has been planted. The fiend may start to feel strange emotions. At that point, it is no longer 'pure evil'.

Truly Risen fiends - those who are no longer evil - are technically no longer fiends. Usually a fiend will retain its physical shape, because that is part of its self-image. But as an outsider, its essence could become linked to a new plane of existence. Eventually, the fiend's appearance and abilities may change - a reformed cornugon might find its features softening, and its wings suddently sprouting feathers for instance.