What about Ao?

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therisenevil's picture
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What about Ao?

Yeah, what about him in the Multiverse?
I mean, he is superior to the gods, their god maybe, but only the Faerunian or all? And if not, why is it so, because he is much more mighty than them. Also, wouldn't he be the kind of deity the Athar think a deity needs to be- one that needs no belief ect.?

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What about Ao?

'therisenevil' wrote:
Yeah, what about him in the Multiverse? I mean, he is superior to the gods, their god maybe, but only the Faerunian or all? And if not, why is it so, because he is much more mighty than them. Also, wouldn't he be the kind of deity the Athar think a deity needs to be- one that needs no belief ect.?

Just his crystal sphere.

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What about Ao?

I dont quite understand, what is about his chrytal sphere? The chrystal sphere is the thing where one or several worlds are contained if I remember properly...or do I misunderstand something?

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What about Ao?

'therisenevil' wrote:
I dont quite understand, what is about his chrytal sphere? The chrystal sphere is the thing where one or several worlds are contained if I remember properly...or do I misunderstand something?

While Ao is capable of exercising immense control over the Faerunian gods on Toril, he exerts no control beyond Toril's crystal sphere. ("Crystal sphere" is a 2e Spelljammer term -- think "Toril's solar system.") If, say, Deneir were worshipped on Generic D&D World #21, Ao has no influence over Deneir's activities there.

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What about Ao?

Honestly, it doesn't make too much sense. I keep Ao as mysterious as possible, as I would any overpower. Babysitters for crystal spheres completely ruins their purpose/flavor imo.

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Overgods

Here is something I posted to the Spelljammer mailing list on this subject:

In classic Norse mythology, Tyr was a god of war and law, who sacrificed his right hand to the Fenris Wolf when the latter was chained. He epitomized the warrior who followed the creed "my oath is my bond". In Toril, Tyr has been blinded as well, has less of a war aspect, and is more of a typical representation of justice. Are the two the same being?

Likewise, Mielikki (Toril/Finnish) inhabits the same realm as Ehlonna (Oerth), and the two are so similar as to be almost indistinguishable. Are they the same being with different names?

My personal idea is that the Overgods (Ao in the Realms, etc) are not divinities, but instead caretakers of a particular crystal sphere. Ao governs Realmspace; it is Ao's dictates which establish which gods have access to Realmspace, what their limits (e.g., divine level) are within the sphere, and their representations. Ao blinded Tyr (or Tyr's representation) within Realmspace. Tyr's representation in Norsespace (for lack of a better term) is sighted.

The best way to think about this relationship is that a crystal sphere is like a shopping mall. The divinities are the stores - some are big chain stores (Greater gods or Pantheon heads), while others are smaller, all the way down to mobile kiosks (demigods). The Overgods are the mall management company, who set the rules for stores/gods. The Overgod has no power over a different mall/sphere. The gods, on the other hand, have representations /stores in a number of different malls. Some are larger, some are smaller. Just as Borders may have a full store in one mall, but a Borders Express in another, so too might a god have Greater power in one sphere, but Lesser power in another.

It does get confusing when the gods have different names or blend with each other (e.g., the elven tri-goddess, Horus-Re, etc.).

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What about Ao?

Thanx now I understand it better...but then, whats about the Athar and Ao, why does their Philosophy not even mention him? I ask just out of curiosity not because I want to unveil the "secrets of Ao" in my game or something^^

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What about Ao?

On a meta-level, probably because Ao is a Forgotten Realms centric overdiety and concept. Planescape designers wanted to keep the Planescape setting from being dependent on the Forgotten Realms setting.

On a in-game level, the Athar are not based on Toril. Why would they care?

therisenevil's picture
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What about Ao?

Because he perfectly fits their thoughts of a deity that doesnt need worship...ist he a "real" deity according to their philosophy? In fact it is not really that important to them but I think Ao is known enough that the Athar can't state something like: "If there are true gods, they dont need worship (and so on)" because they should know at least the fact that Ao exists...
I mean, not that this is so important to the game, but it just surprises me that they dont seem to have spent a single thought on him althogh he is so differet from the others...

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What about Ao?

I'd say there's nothing wrong in treating Au as another name for the Great Unknown, if you like.
I'm only afraid that there's probably a ton or two of Forgotten Realms novels that give a lot of information about Ao, making him a Fairly Unknown, or eben just a Moderately Unknown, if you care about that. Eye-wink

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What about Ao?

'therisenevil' wrote:
Because he perfectly fits their thoughts of a deity that doesnt need worship...ist he a "real" deity according to their philosophy? In fact it is not really that important to them but I think Ao is known enough that the Athar can't state something like: "If there are true gods, they dont need worship (and so on)" because they should know at least the fact that Ao exists...

How would they know that? Even on Toril, Ao's been erasing himself from all written records. At most, they've heard vague rumors of something beyond the false powers that threw a giant temper tantrum, screwed up the world's magic and caused chaos and carnage by letting avatars roam the world, then let most of the powers back to plague the Outer Planes again. Over what, some stone tablets that got stolen? Couldn't a real god just make new tablets?

I don't think the existence of overpowers is common knowledge on the planes. If the Athar have heard of such things, yes, they might allow that at least overpowers are closer to being gods then the powers are. I don't think the story of the Time of Troubles would convince them that Ao was a real god, though.

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What about Ao?

Anyone think that The Lady is the over-god of Sigil?

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What about Ao?

'Dire Lemon' wrote:
Anyone think that The Lady is the over-god of Sigil?

That's one theory. Personally, I don't like to define the Lady that much. If she's an overgod, then it's a given that she has the power to destroy any deity that might end up in Sigil. While she managed to kill Aoskar, I don't think it does the setting any favors to assume she can necessarily repeat the feat indefinitely with other greater gods. She has control over the portals, and can usually keep deities out of the city that way, but I don't like the assumption that Sigil will always be safe from divine attacks. There should be a little element of uncertainty of just how much the Lady can do. She's unknown, and perhaps unknowable. She might have power beyond any of the gods, but then again, maybe she's not nearly as powerful as she tries to appear. A good question is: if the Lady's so powerful, why does she have to act to punish those who threaten her authority? Would an overpower need to worry about whether mortals worship them or not, or if mortals question their abilities or not? Perhaps she doesn't need to worry about those things, and only punishes those who defy her edicts out of spite. Or perhaps she's acting to address real vulnerabilities. Perhaps if she ever developed a substantial cult of worshippers in Sigil, she would be cast out of the city thanks to laws older than she is. Perhaps if enough people doubted her power, she would lose it.

Some people like to assume that the Lady of Pain is essentially omnipotent. I don't. She's certainly extremely powerful, but Sigil's continued safety isn't something the PCs should be able to take for granted. They shouldn't be able to count on the Lady being able to clean up every mess.

I also don't think she fits the M.O. of an overpower. Overpowers normally interact only with deities, being completely beyond mortal affairs. The Lady of Pain interacts with deities to some extent, working to prevent them from entering via her portals and casting out or slaying those who do end up in the city. But primarily she interacts with mortals, flaying or mazing those who threaten her city or her authority. In this respect, she's much more like a standard deity than an overpower. She operates at exactly the same level that ordinary powers do, one hand in the world of mortals and one hand in the divine.

So no, I don't think the Lady of Pain is an overpower, and even if I thought she could be, I don't think this possibility should be given any more weight than any other.

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What about Ao?

I am a fan of both Planescape and the Forgotten Realms and I have incorporated both into my game.

There is no Ao in my game. To me, he is a meaningless and unnecessary complication.

I have created an alternative Forgotten Realms mythology which leaves Ao out of it:

Quote:
... In the beginning was light and darkness, twin goddessess, good and evil, Selûne and Shar. Together, they created the heavenly bodies and Chauntea, nature goddess of Toril. Chauntea wished to have light and warmth so that she might support life. Selûne would comply but Shar opposed her. So Selûne created the sun and the stars. This enraged Shar and since then they have been perpetually at war with each other, sometimes one getting the upper hand, sometimes the other. ...

The time of troubles was certainly an interesting storyline so I came up with an alternative explanation, which involved the war between Shar and Selûne.

Also, part of my rationale was that the different worlds of D&D are supposed to fit together with planescape, so I didn't want Ao spoiling the account of the gods that came to the realms from other worlds.

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