Urban Planescape-How futuristic?

Overall, I'd say that most UPS characters would exist in Type 0 societies but Powers, Avatars, Entities and the like would individually vary from Type I to Type VI (control over the multiverse) in power.

To get back to your original question: I think that there are many potential tracks to take with incorperating technology into the planes and/or with magic. And figuring out what place modern technology has on the planes is one of the creative endeavors of this project.

Nick012000's Demonslayer Mecha is a good example of what can be done with technology level equivalent to our own (in fact, if you start a new thread for it, I'll add it to the Thread of Threads). Another example is power generation in Sigil-while the technology behind it is only PL 4 (electromagnetic induction), by taking advantage of the Cage's portals, the result is an unlimited supply of power for the city.

On the other hand, the goal of the project is to make a setting that both fits with the D20 Modern ruleset and the Planescape campaign setting. Right now, magic in the sense of spellcasting is more like D20 Modern than Planescape. Of course, the original Planescape had a tendency of making spellcasting a chancy affair anyway.

Personally, I think that the Mecha idea just might work. Because it dosn't have to be just technology making it work, but prehaps some sort of technomagic. I can defintaly imagine mechs being very popular in the Blood War.

Also, they don't have to be as big as Gundams or Battlemechs, but more like the APUs of the Matrix storyline.

Thoughts?

'Techno magic' will be something of a tricky subject as we develop the setting further. Clearly it belongs in the setting to some extent, but it's important that it not get carried away with it.

Edit-as noted in earlier threads, we're going to be going with somewhat weaker levels of magic in order to keep the setting modern. It won't be to the same degree that D20 Modern restricts it, but a lot of the spells above 5th level will only be available through incantations. Again, this is something we discussed earlier (and when I have the time, I'll add it to the FAQ, along with full reasoning-right now, its 12:30 am CST, and I'm working tomorrow. )

Well Said, Watashi.

There is one exception that I've thought of however-one difference between pre-industrial societies and industrial societies is that industrial societies begin to speculate on what the future will be like in a technological sense. Speculation can sometimes be taken to the level of belief-the building blocks of the Outer Planes. Given this, it may be appropriate to allow a few Powers and Cosmic Entities (but only a few) access to higher tech levels within their demenses. Such technology couldn't leave their realm without a connection to the Power in question (similar to connections proxies have), and would always be undecipherable to technical examination (as there is a 'black box' element present).

Or replace the whole thing with an amulet

Urban arcana is wizards with a everiday modern tone, not technomancy. In other words, modern hardheads should look more like police officers and less like warhammer 40k imperial space marines. Altough that too has drawbacks (how to put spikes on a police uniform?)

This is why magic is going to be much more limited (in both level-save for one or two workarounds-and distribution) in UPS than in PSCS, Fidrikion. While the setting you just described would be interesting to play in (sorta like PS meets Eberron), it is by no means Modern.

Of course, the fact that there was a higher amount of magic in PS won't be ignored. Instead, it will be explained in the backstory-particularly Ragnorak and the Pantheon War.

before anyone says anything about startravel I gota say too much technology would just turn PS into yet another cyberpunk, techie {insert your own techno game term here} game. I could see adding in some simple industrial age technology. remember that includes motors, turbines, rockets, engines, electric and gas welding ships guns, machine guns, gatling guns, speedboats. all the greaseball technology you could hope for and none of the electronic wizzbanging stuff already out there a dime a dozen. hell even the fission bomb was industrial age (fusion bomb is iffy).

I'd prefer to keep Planescape strictly modern in most contexts. No intergalactic space fleets, laser beam weapons, giant mecha, powered armor, or grav tanks. I want to see guns, trenchcoats, fossil fuels, jets and greenbacks.

Laser guns are PL 6. We currently have them, it's just that there are issues with power supply (fixable with magic). Intergalactic space fleets are extant in run-of-the-mill Planescape, with the spelljammers on the Prime. Powered armor is again, mainly running up against power issues in the modern day, and grav tanks are easy enough to implement with a simple Levitate item (Purchase DC 32- much less than the tank, by orders of magnitude).

Simply put, with the magic available in d20 Modern becoming a thing the public is aware of, things like this will become much more common, because the military will want them, and will invest money in developing them. You will see all the things you mentioned, because they serve their own roles on the battlefeild (except trenchcoats). Good engineering does not go for the high tech solution- it goes for the best one.

And let's be honest here. In a Modern game, the PCs are basically soldiers. They might be elite, mercenary soldiers, but soldiers is what they are. They might call themselves "adventurers" or "planewalkers", but let's be honest. Their job is to go and kill the enemy soldiers, and that makes them soldiers.

No. They could be civilians. Terrorists. Murderers. Vigilantes. Explorers. Theives. Rebels. Assassins. Any number of things that aren't "soldiers", even if they do kill people. There's an enormous difference. Soldiers, for one thing, can legally and safely drive a levitation tank through town to lob shells at enemy soldiers. Normal adventurers would get arrested (hopefully) or provoke immediate hostile reaction as they walk down the street armed with power armor and laser guns, looking for a good place to eat. Even when adventurers are dealing with Slaadi, Demons, or Devils, it's probably a much better idea not to look like you're going to kill someone.

My fear is that in Modern Planescape power-armor, laser weapons, and grav tanks will become an expected norm, and no will bat an eyelash when even moderately powerful military hardware comes rolling down the street. Because adventurers are not soldiers, because I don't want to be restricted to running hack-n-slash soldier campaigns, because there should be a compelling reason not to choose the biggest guns and armor and instead choose something that just looks normal.

So, yes, you can keep your grav-tanks and laser weapons. That's not a game I want to run, and it certainly is not the only option. Just don't fall into the assumption that we all want soldiering campaigns. I, for one, will take the concealable bullet-proof vest and the .44.

I have to disagree with this perception, both in terms of what kinds of adventures can be done in D20 Modern, and especially what kind of adventuring is done in Planescape. "Kick-down-the-Door" may be what WotC has encouraged with the new rule set (perhaps unintentionally), but the Planescape I remember actively frowns on a cavalier mentallity. Instead, it makes it very clear that this approach will most likely lead to a messy, soul-destroying death at the hands of irrate natives.

This is where the Gods live, remember, and They probably won't be happy about a bunch of gun-happy marauders intruding on their kip and messing violently with their long-term goals.

As for the discussion on magic-technology relationship, I don't we're at this point of development yet. For now, assume the level of magic and technology in UA, with greater awareness by the general public, will be the rule for UPS. We can discuss upping the ante later.

Have you actually ever played any different RPGs out there, Nick? Some campaigns involve no combat whatsoever. Tristat dX has a "soap-opera" rules set. There are political RPGs, comedic rpgs, and I'm pretty sure I can find a rules for a Romance RPG. You've made a horrible delusion that you run the only RPG in the universe. Don't assume everyone runs games like you... I can tell you now I don't, and my players love my game. To assume otherwise is just arrogant generalization.

Basically Nick, you can run your kick-the-door-down game any time you like. But I won't let you ruin Modern Planescape by making it the only playable option. The purchase DC for military grade license is DC 20. Not only is this too cheap, but it's also too easy, and I'm not sure if it's even legally viable. I'm never going to let players merely "buy" one, they have to earn it.

Fidrikon never suggested anything about Civilians being adventurers, and I said that being a civilian was an option but not the only one. Key words there, and get used to it.

Part of the problem is that there likely will need to be a slightly higher tech level than in standard d20 Modern. As much as the modern, gritty feel is concerned, you can do high-tech without losing grit, or you can go all romantic. Look at cyberpunk. It's full of high-tech stuff and can still range from the romantic to gritty. Yes, milspec equipment may end up including power armor and floating tanks.. but then again, the military's already got basic power armor. It's just not combat suitable yet for power reasons. Plus, in combination with demons and the like, militaries are gonna REALLY want some destructive stuff to deal with creatures who near in power to GODS.

Most people won't have them, still. They'll know about them, possibly, but few, if any will have them. Militaries still won't give out power armor.. not unless you're a friendly country. The US, for example, will sell rifles to you if you have a mil-grade firearms dealer's license, but won't sell you anything not man-portable. You can get rocket launchers, grenades, all sorts of explosive and deadly goodies, but you can't get the big stuff, like tanks and whatnot. Not unless you're a country we recognize as a treaty ally, a major treaty organization, or something else equally powerful and having sovereignty.

All in all, I think your fears are overblown. If you're a 15th-16th level character, chances are you have personal power enough that you CAN take over a country, where buying a tank is reasonable. You're still not going to get a new tank with your DC 20 mil-grade license. You might get some nice .50 cal. rifles, an RPG launcher, or perhaps even some nice grenades. Not a tank. Well, unless you design and build one yourself.

I gota agree DC 20 is way too easy. I could hit that with a lvl 1 if I wanted...

seriously though do you really want to play a game where you WALK AROUND in a mech! not go on the major raid of a campaign or something like that but just "hey I'm hungry lets go to Mcspacedonalds leme get dressed up in my 100ton Dashi!". if the answer is yes then you have seriouse mental issues but fine just don't try and make normal PS revolving about that.

I'd like to see it in a timescale of 1910-1948. all the fun stuff without the ubergeeky crap.

oh and spelljammers might be cool but the spelljammer setting sucks. their take on reality is silly. but there are similar things to spelljammers used by the Gith on the Astral if you remember.

This is true. If it's normal for lvl 15 dnd pc to have a limited wish, then a lvl 15 d20m pc should be able to have at least one Abrams in his garage

I don't know how much that would fit. Planescape is about changing the afterlife reality through mass belief

Using magic to advance a tech level sounds more like eberron

good point planescape is more about philosophy of belief and such not hey look I can deal 1000 dammage furst turn! heck magic wasn't even the biggest stuff most of the time because it was hard to use off the prime with having to know all the keys and have the godly gifts and crap.

I don't mean that tech should be magic. I mean that high-level tech should be doled out like magic items and not put on standard equipment lists.

It depends, actually, what kind of adventurers they are, and this is why I'm so adamant about the difference between soldiers and other fighters. Mercs will have a tank at about 10th level. A 10th level soldier will probably have "borrowing privledges" for some kind of tank. A 10th level criminal or vigilante or even group of explorers will be lucky to get their hands on a tank, let alone keep it. It all depends on what kind of adventurers they are.

but didn't we already determine that the older, more powerful exemplars shunned tech? The chances of seeing a Balor with a laser rifle should be pretty rare.

Actually, some of the already existant magic could make the tech/magic thing pretty balanced. For example, a brilliant energy longsword is going to pass right through the armor plating of a tank. Will the tank be harmed? No. Will anyone inside standing to close to the walls be cut in half? Yes.

This is silly. Would a demon sacrifice an edge for a vague sense of conservatism? Would a devil not use every resource at his disposal? Of course they aren't, and if they did, we'd still have castles in the Lower Planes.

I agree.

Technology isn't a belief. It just is.

What impact it has or will have is a belief, and so it is incorperated into the Outer Planes just like all beliefs. On the Upper Planes, the promise of what technology brings be emphasized, while the Lower Planes demonstrate it's horrors.

Here are some candidates for existing Realms and Layers that have a decidedly futurist bent in UPS:

Cania
Garden of Jibrael (Herald of Joy)
Tower of the Arcanoloths
Labratory of Sige (Defender of Understanding)
Abysm/Gaping Maw (based on Demogorgon's innovative nature)

Indeed. With their Arrows of Killing You, solars don't need any better weaponry. Other technology, though, could be very helpful.

technology just is eh? true but I was more refering to peoples belief in technology. if you don't know what I mean you must be from a fairly metropolitan area. Ever talk to old people, or some that would be considerd country bumpkins? alot of them don't like technology. alot of technology could be seen as a bad thing. Mostly as a kinda good enough for granpappy good enough for me and "well that ain't how we use to do it." I guess its kinda a liberal vs conservative arguement in the most general terms. liberal being for change conservative being not for change.