Urban Athar

The connection with the Mathematicians is an interesting idea. I guess at least some of them would think of the Great Unknown as the math itself as its rules governs every plane and yet it is not known as a power.

The fundamental problem with this is, to apply Christianity to Planescape - even in a "modernized" setting - would lead to many religious debates on how they should be "represented" and or many claiming they would be ill represented, thus leading to - as I said before - religious debates, if not down right arguing. If Christianity were to be added, Christians would actually fit in with the people/petitioners of either Mount Celestia or Baator. I say this, because Chronias (the upper most layer of Mount Celestia) is supposed to be pure light and the home to Ahura Mazdah, who in the most anthropological and mythological sense, is the very being that the Judeo-Christian God was most likely modeled after and Asmodeus is already another slang term for the Devil in Christian Fundamentalist rhetoric. Also, the acceptance of the Great Unknown is so-much more deist/agnostic then Christian - Afterall, Christians believe in Christ - a person who is the manifestation of a Divine Being called God - which in Planescape terms - would make Christ either a "power" or a demigod of some sort - the very thing the Athar would oppose. The Athar are more like the Planar Atheists or Agnostics (Maybe even Scientologists?) - depending on the metaphysical arguments presented.

This argument has no grounds, mainly because the Gothic Earth setting of Ravenloft covers this. However, There were many attempts to integrate Christianity into Planescape (A very long time ago...), but the idea was dropped on the grounds of stirring up Christian Fundamentalist Wrath - which had already done enough damage to D&D's image in the eyes of many. Logically though, the Athar would probably oppose the Christians as well, because they believe in a being in the Objective sense i.e. God, which would have to be a power. On the otherhand, the Athar adhere to a metaphysical force that is purely subjective - the Great Unknown. If anything - the Athar would be Scientologists at best or some strange combination of Buddhist Doctrine and Hegelian Rhetoric - that is strictly accepted in the most scientific sense - without the possiblity of achieving godhood (Buddha-hood, Enlightenment, Nirvana, etc..) that is.

Also, one of the main reasons I am arguing this is because the Athar tried and did disrupt worship of powers, especially in the temples set up in Sigil by the Believers of the Source. Then again, this makes the Athar out to be more like Atheists then philosophical adherents.

Really? What does it say?

Of course, fundamentalists don't read D&D books any more than they read Stephen King books or listen to Marilyn Manson albums. They protest things because they're told to protest things, not because they're familiar with what they're protesting.

What Christian Fundamentalists objected to in D&D was the existence of pagan gods that PC clerics worshipped. Integrating Christianity would make them happy, assuming it was done in a respectful way.

I know what the Masque of the Red Death setting was (though I've never read any of its products, and you gave a lot of facts about it that I was not aware of). However, that's not what I was asking.

I thought you were implying that the Masque of the Red Death setting covered the idea that Christians do or don't show up on the Outer Planes. Is that right? If so, what does it say on the matter? If not, how does nick's argument have no grounds?

It's statements like those that convince me that Christian fundamentalists don't read D&D books (although, Druaga, the "ruler of the devil world," is in the original Deities & Demigods and is essentially Satan in most respects). They critique and lie about them without bothering to read between their covers.

You mean, doing horrible things to Christian characters in the context of the game? Moreso than other characters? That's possible; it depends on the people in question.

They have plenty of other things to attack D&D for. There are some people you can't please no matter what; it's a bad idea to change something just to placate people who are going to hate you no matter what you do.

That said, I don't think there's any particular need to incorporate Christianity into official D&D products. We're talking more about home games, here.

That's pretty much what cultists of Asmodeus and other fiends (as described in the Book of Vile Darkness are. I mean, Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Belial, Mephistopheles, and others are demons actual Christians have believed in for hundreds or thousands of years, and often used as alternate names for the Devil.

Christians could be in the Outer Planes, but that's different from their petitioners going there. It depends on where Jehovah's realm is; if it's somewhere other than the Outer Planes, or if it's hidden (as a few powers' realms are), then Christian petitioners may seem to not go there as other petitioners do.

I'm quite fervently on your side in contending that Christianity is completely different from the Athar. I was just wondering if Ravenloft actually said something about the destination of Christian souls in the AD&D multiverse, which is what I thought you were implying.

I didn't realize you were talking about that kind of Satanist. From the context, it seemed as if you were talking about people worshipping the Christian god's opposite number - that is, devil worshippers.

I agree that Anton LeVey style Satanists can't be represented as cultists of the Lords of the Nine or the Abyss.

On the other hand, anyone who calls themselves a Satanist shouldn't be too offended if people assume they worship Satan; their name kind of implies it, and they picked that name on purpose. It'd be like a group of secular humanists calling themselves Christians and then getting offended when others assume they worship Christ.

Honestly, I have enough trouble remembering to respect real people. I don't want to offend monotheists, or pagans, or devil worshippers, or anyone, but the imaginary monsters they worship ought to be able to take care of themselves without me tip-toeing around their feelings.