Universe vs. Multiverse

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'MakThuumNgatha' wrote:
They are definitely related to the fey but are now entirely mortal; but the plane of Faerie doesn't exist in my cosmology/planescape cosmology so I cannot identify that plane as their origin (I welcome suggestions in this area).
Tir na Og

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Seconded. If you don't have a plane of faerie/want something more true to myth... the Tir is your place.

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There's an article called Elves Don't Dream that in my opinion, is a perfect explanation for the origin of elves and, as the title says, also explains why they don't dream. It's archived on the PW website.

Personally, (since I reject the notion that D&D races have to be copied from and identical to Middle Earth) I have always viewed halflings as the little people of faerie and as such, being more closely related to elves and kender. I also see dwarves and gnomes as having a separate origin from elves, but still being connected to faerie some how. Goblinoids and orcs I see as non-faerie creatures. But maybe considering that orcs can hybridise with absolutely anything, maybe they also have a magical origin. I wonder, are they related to ogres and that's why those races share that easily-hybridised feature? Or are ogres closer to giants?

With the multiple crystal spheres and even planes that have the same races on them, I've always assumed that most of the intelligent races, including humans, were created by the Gods and only used related animal species as "templates" or "bases".

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To each their own.

I avoid having gnomes or halflings in my campaigns when possible.

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One thing I will contest though, is the notion that elfs are Chaotic Good. Some elfs are CG, but that number is far from a majority. If you look at it, elfs have three afterlife destinations, Arborea for the good ones, Ysgard for the Neutral ones, and the Abyss for the evil ones. If you look at the way elfs are typically described and the things they actually do, there's a bit of a disconnect. Forgotten Realms, for instance, absolutely loves its elfs, and devotes more page space to them than pretty much any other race. By and large, suface elfs are described as paragons of virtue while Drow are cartoonishly evil, but if you look at what they have actually done in the history of the setting, both groups are characterized by constant genocidal wars, rampant xenophobia, and consistent abuse of power. They're Chaotic, yes (well, Drow are more Neutral), but certainly not Good. It's the same way in other settings too. Elfs are supposed to be good, but they never live up to their reputations. The reason, of course, is that Chaotic Good characters are the hardest characters to write well, and in order to make them interesting, most writers play down the "goodness" of them.

As far as I'm concerned, Halflings should be the Chaotic Good race (which brings their alignments slightly closer to their realm is in Celestia, but that's a discussion for another time), and elfs should by and large get demoted to Chaotic Neutral.

Also, I think elfs should at most be a group of hominids that did a lot of faery lovin'. Sort of like watered-down fey-touched. I think just because elfs played a distinctly other-worldly role in LoTR doesn't mean they need to be faeries or Eladrin in D&D. Just because most fantasy writers seem to think elfs are the coolest thing ever (after Dragons) doesn't mean we have to agree with that notion.

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Well, the Elves in LotR, despite seeming so otherworldly, are in origin and biology almost identical to Humans. They only really differ in that they don't age.

I like D&D Elves to be connected to the fae in some way, but being fey-touched in some way would probably work, too. I just love that PW article on Elves a lot. But maybe that's where Halflings and Kender came from -- Elves messing about with Brownies, maybe.

Hey, I know! Maybe Dwarves evolved from badgers. Sticking out tongue

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I quite like the elves having an otherworldly fey-connected origin; makes them the most interesting of the "standard" player races and sets them apart. They are definitely not just another hominid off-shoot (too boring and doesn't fit with the fact that they bodily vanish when their time is up rather than merely die like other mortals).

Xenophobia is not at all evil in and of itself; while it is true that surface elves are frequently at war with orcs and goblinoids these wars are not genocidal. To look at the Forgotten Realms, the only time period of rampant abuse of power and genocidal warfare on the part of the elves was the Crown Wars; the elves look back at this time with shame and regret. This was a horrible millennia long aberration, not the measure of elven action.

Elves are arrogant, as befits an ancient race who once ruled most of the material plane; but arrogance is not evil. Elves have high ideals and unfortunately their race has frequently failed to live up to them. But this doesn't mean that individual elves don't give their all to live up to them. The actions of a government cannot be said to reflect the values of its people; especially the descendents of those who lived in corrupt empires thousands of years ago. I strongly support keeping most elf races chaotic good.

Halflings, I don't care. They aren't coming near my campaign.

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'MakThuumNgatha' wrote:
They are definitely not just another hominid off-shoot (too boring and doesn't fit with the fact that they bodily vanish when their time is up rather than merely die like other mortals).

Really? That's pretty weird.

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Yes, they bodily vanish and their souls travel to Arvandor without ever feeling the pain of death. This definitely indicates that there is something otherworldly about them.

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'MakThuumNgatha' wrote:
Yes, they bodily vanish and their souls travel to Arvandor without ever feeling the pain of death. This definitely indicates that there is something otherworldly about them.

Where does it say that? I've read a lot of D&D books, and I think I'd remember something like that. At any rate, I think that's pretty much gone from 3E.

As for the Crown Wars, the term "millenia-long abberation," to me, is the funniest thing ever. An abberation is something that is strange and out of place, whereas the Crown Wars made perfect sense. Elfs are insular, xenophobic, racist, millitaristic, arrogant, and self-centered, so when there were a bunch of different groups with large populations living in relative proximity to each other, it was only a matter of time before the ethnic cleansing started. The reason the various surface races don't do the same thing now is because they are too isolated from one another to really care. That said, elfs still have a habit of fighting all their neighbors, they just aren't other elfs anymore. So yeah, Chaotic Neutral. I mean sure they have glimmering cities, and live in peaceful communities where they enjoy the arts and philosphy, communities that they will protect with their lives, but so do the Githzerai, and everyone agrees they are Neutral. If you start with notion that that most elfs are neutral and go from there, a lot of the things they do make a lot more sense than if they are good.

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'Duckluck' wrote:
Where does it say that? I've read a lot of D&D books, and I think I'd remember something like that. At any rate, I think that's pretty much gone from 3E.

2e PHB:
"Elves often live to be over 1,200 years old, although long before this time they feel compelled to depart the realms of men and mortals. Where they go is uncertain, but it is an undeniable urge of their race."

A lot of the elven baggage is holdovers from Tolkien. Including the 'elves are naturally good' expectation.

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
A lot of the elven baggage is holdovers from Tolkien. Including the 'elves are naturally good' expectation.

But because only superficial resemblances were copied, the reasons that those traits made sense are completely gone. Making their resemblance to Tolkien elves especially pointless and silly.

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Which is why they are slowly dropping the more Tolkienesque aspects of the race in favor of something a little more generic, but undeniably less derivitive. You'll notice also that their maximum life-span has been reduced to 800, presumably to put them more in line with the other races and curb abuses like getting a +10 on a profession skill and using it continuously for a couple centuries before the start of the game. At any rate, Wizards has pretty much abandoned the 2E Tolkien super-elves in favor of more down-to-earth elfs. Some of the less imiginative settings haven't really gotten the hint yet *cough* Forgotten Realms *cough*, but others have taken the new direction for elfs and ran with it, which is something I like about Eberron.

Fortunately, the destinction between Tolkien-inspired elves and more neutral elfs has always existed in Planescape thanks to our buddies in Alfhiem. I know D&D elfs are very different from Norse elfs, but still, Alfhiem is cool, and I think we should gradually shift the elf action away from Arvandor to Alfhiem. If anyone asks, we'll say it reflects the changing attitudes of prime elfs.

[It should be noted that Tokien invented the words "elves," and "dwarves" the proper terms are "elfs" and "dwarfs," which is what I mostly use unless I'm talking about Tolkien's races.]

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The 2e player's handbook, as well as numerous other 2e sources, mention Elven "ascension." I think the 3e book Races of Faerun might mention it as well; but I'm not certain. If it suits your campaign you can easily do away with the elven "otherworldliness" and just make them an exceptionally long lived race with sharp senses and an appreciation for nature. But to me, that it takes away pretty much anything that makes them interesting. As such I include that aspect of the elves in my campaign. For elves being predominantly good; while their political history does not always seem in line with this, it is ultimately the alignment of the individual members that determine whether a race is "usually chaotic good." In my campaign I do choose for them to be usually good. When most non-human races are predominantly evil, there should be a few races that are predominantly good. Granted dwarves are, but they have alot of diversity in alignment (at least in my campaigns), and they focus on the lawful side of good. Gnomes and halflings largely bother me, so I generally avoid making use of them. So elves fill the role of the race that shows the chaotic side of good (excluding exemplars of course).

Granted the otherworldliness of elves is derived from Tolkien (and I do not at all enjoy his works); but it seperates the elves from the other races. And the different races should exceptionally distinguishing traits so as to make them interesting.

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Okay, I'll bite. What's wrong with Gnomes and Halflings?

As for elfs, the other-worldliness of them is derived from a combination of Norse elfs, western faeries, and more than a dollop of hacky modern fantasy. One interesting thing that Tolkien does that even the norse didn't do is he makes them functionally divine. Basically, you don't have to drop the uniqueness or the fae angle, but the "ascension" and the like strike me as bad for the game.

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I don't see how the ascension is bad for the game; it is unlikely that any of my players will live to die of old age or "ascend" anyways. It is pure flavor, nothing that significantly affects the game.

My dislike of halflings and gnomes is nothing significant (it wasn't bait to go off on a rant). Halflings are just little people who (sometimes) retain a childish curiosity throughout their lives; I find them completely uninteresting and unnecessary. They are largely derived from hobbits of course, and hobbits are also an uninteresting race that are a large part of why I don't enjoy Tolkien. Gnomes are more interesting and unique; but while deep gnomes are useful as a non-evil Underdark race, regular gnomes are largely unnecessary and as a personal quirk, when I'm DMing I never feel satisfied with how I portray them.

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I say elven ascention is bad for the game because it creates the perception that elves are just better than the other races. We have enough of that attitude already. How many of you guys have been in a group where someone wanted to play a race just because that race was "cooler" than the others, and they didn't care whether it fit their class, party, alignment, campaign setting, or anything else. Those guys suck, but they are managable as long as there isn't a massive "coolness gap" between races. Elf is probably the second most popular race after human (and that's mostly because people can identify with the human), we don't need more stuff added on to make them even cooler. I mean, it's not like half-orcs ever get that kind of love.

The racial fan-boys I mentioned above have another problem. They make really lousy characters. If you place too much emphasis on the group and how your character relates to it, you tend to forget to make a character be interesting in his other facets. Take the endless tide of Drizz't knockoffs that newer characters make: not only is the good drow (or good tiefling, good fiend, good orc, good goblin, etc) a really tired character archetype, but it also removes emphasis from the character's actual personality and instead focuses it on their race. Basically what I'm saying is that you don't want a character's race to be so interesting in and of itself that it distracts from the less tangible elements of the character's personality.

At any rate, Hobbits are actually more similar to gnomes in a lot of ways than they are to halflings. Hobbits were never known for their curiosity, dexterity, bravery, or, really, much of anything besides their hight. That was sort of the point of the race. In addition, they were pastoral, placid, and generally sedentary, which gnomes can be, but Halflings most certainly are not.

Anyway, when it comes to halflings, it's all in how you use them. Most DM's treat halflings as being sort of like Gypsies. They lead caravans, move from town to town, live in extended familly groups, and generally do what any nomadic group in a primarilly non-nomadic culture do, they trade. That, or you can just dump them in the city and have them only show up in the local thieves guild, but that's not really a good option. I've found that gnomes are actually harder to integrate into a campaign because they tend to be too sedentary to wander a lot, and their homelands tend to be fairly out of the way, so you really have to work to include them.

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Yes, it inexplicably slipped my mind that for 3e halflings were redesigned as midget gypsies from hobbit clones.

The thing about fanboys and true role players is this: If someone is a true role player they are going to create a well-developed character after much consideration and not slide into "fanboyness"; obviously, for these people the fact that elves ascend is not particularly important.

For "fanboys", or more accurately roll players; you cannot expect then to create well-developed characters. They are either going to create a human character with a personality along the lines of "myself as a wizard" or resort to racial stereotypes. The fact that elves "ascend" instead of die of old age is not likely to come into consideration, partially because they will not be so well-versed in the various intricacies of the race. Yes, elves are very commonly played (but when half-orcs, halflings, and gnomes are among the alternatives what can be expected?); but lets not forget the legions of players with dwarf characters along the lines of Axebeard the Generic.

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Rather than making elves more mundane, I would rather make the other races more interesting, giving them special roles in the cosmology that match anything that elves can do.

Maybe dwarves become living metal that can be forged into intelligent magic items. Maybe gnomes leave permanent glamers at the site of their deaths. Maybe the corpse of an orc defiles the world in fulfillment of Gruumsh's ancient curse, leaving a scar on the land full of stench and corruption in which nothing can ever grow. Maybe halflings have their bodies followed about by black spectral dogs who protect them until they can be interned in crucibles of black flame that prevents their corpses from decaying or becoming undead. Maybe humans are the only ones who travel to the planes of their alignment.

All the Retreat or Leaving of the elves really means is that there is at least one permanent portal to Arvandor on the world through which ancient elves who tire of mortal existence can flee (in Toril, it's in Evermeet, while in Oerth it's in the Lendore Isles). They don't "vanish" like ghosts. The compulsion to leave is said to be eventually impossible to resist, as Sehanine Moonbow inexorably calls them in their dreams (which elves don't normally have, but they dream when Sehanine wants them to dream - for elves, dreams mean prophecy or death).

See also the Moonarch of Sehanine.

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Honestly, I find the parade of humanoid generic fantasy races to be inherently and unavoidably boring. The only humanoids that I don't find hopelessly dull are Kender, but I doubt I would ever want to play one.
If you want interesting races, make them something that isn't generic humanoid. Dark Sun is good about that.

Or work on giving different races different psychology. How, for example, would a race like Thri-Kreen think? Very differently from humans in almost every way. Even mammalians like Tabaxi are going to have different life cycles, different ways of raising their families, different ways of making a living, that result in very non-human psychology. Just think about how cats work, and how a race evolved (or created) from them would work. That's what I think is interesting. Kender are interesting because their psychology is non-human. If you took Elves or Dwarves and gave them a different way of thinking and feeling, in keeping with living underground or having a really long lifespan and a connection to the fae, then they would be much more than just humans in Star Trek makeup.

Of course, it takes good players and DMs to actually take advantage of interesting non-human psychology. That's another issue entirely.

'Duckluck' wrote:
One interesting thing that Tolkien does that even the norse didn't do is he makes them functionally divine.

They're much more powerful than humans, and very difficult to kill, but certainly not on the level of gods.

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I completely agree with you. When I play elves or dwarves (or more accurately run them as DM) I do play up their psychological differences from humans.

It is precisely the uninterestingness of most humanoids that requires elves to be more interesting; and the fact that in my campaign world elves, and elves alone of the mortal races, do not bodily die of old age fits with their "almost immortal" nature. Dwarves have their keen connection to stone and subterreanen suited physiology and psychology. But ultimately, nothing can make halflings or gnomes interesting in my eyes.

Rip, outside of elves I prefer to have other mortal races die like anything else. The "special" death of elves is, as previously stated, specific to them because of their longevity and apparent ageless (they don't show signs of aging like other races do). All of the other mortals dying normally creates contrast; just like the inability of the other standard humanoids to survive effectively underground contrasts with the dwarves keen adaptations to subterrenean life.

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Well, Gnomes are essentially just miniature Dwarves. I guess they are more mischevous and have cantrips, but that's not so much of a difference. And Halflings are even more boring, nothing but miniature Humans (even though I think they ought to be more similar to Elves).

I wonder if anybody has thought to write a Neanderthal race for D&D.

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Gnomes are not just minature dwarves. Unlike dwarves they lack skill at stone work and living underground (excluding Deep Gnomes of course), their societies are less orderly and exist on a smaller scale. Their humorous, happy-go lucky, curious attitude stands in stark constrast with the stoic, occasionally bitter, traditionalistic attitude of the dwarves. Excluding the commonalities shared by all mammalian humanoids, they are more different than dwarves than they are similar.

What would a neandertal race be like? Going by what we know of them, they would be adopted to the cold, have bonuses to CON and STR and likely penalties to INT (even though they had higher cranial capacities than modern humans) and possibly other mental stats. The favored class would probably be ranger. I don't see much to be gained from creating such a race.

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OK, so Gnomes are more interesting than I gave credit, but I still agree with Mak that they are boring.

Here's an idea about Elves: instead of making them unaging, make them seem unaging until they are very old, at which point they suddenly start aging quite fast. I know that Hags in D&D are a separate race(s), but it would make Elves more similar to those ancient legends in which the young Elves are beautiful and the older one are really ugly and hunched up.

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'MakThuumNgatha' wrote:
Excluding the commonalities shared by all mammalian humanoids, they are more different than dwarves than they are similar.

From the Monster Manual:

Quote:
Gnomes get along well with dwarves, who share their love of precious things, their curiosity about mechanical devices, and their hatred of goblinoids and giants.

I have seen a couple descriptions of gnomes that say they are distantly related to dwarves, however I can't find that reference in the Monster Manual or FRCS. Anyone know where I may have seen this?

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All the inconsistencies are due to the drastic discrepencies between the D&D races, the mythical creatures whose names they share, and (in some cases) the peoples of Tolkien's mythos upon which they were at one point based.

For instance, elves were considered a type of fair folk (faerie) in the majority of Europe, and were depicted as tiny mischevious metaphysical beings. In Scandinavia, on the other hand, the álfar of Alfheim were man sized and regal, and were more akin to angels of modern Christiandom, being semi-divine. Tolkien took the latter approach, a fan as he was of Norse myth, but wrote a compellingly believable history for his people. D&D took the version of the elves popularized by The Lord of the Rings and used most of their traits without any of their history. By the third edition, however, the writers realized that such a diaspora would not do. They slowly removed the otherworldly and overpowering elements of Tolkien's elves, who were to humans as the gods (Maiar and Valar) were to them, and turned them into tree-hugging humans with pointy ears and questionable sexual orientation. I cried on the inside.

Next we move on to dwarves. Properly called dwarrows in the plural, the dwarves (called as such first by Tolkien, who replaced the "dwarfs" usage of his own time) were a race also taken from Norse myth. The dvergar were formed by the gods from the maggots in the flesh of Ymir, a giant whose body formed the world. Although sharing the likeness of men, these hard working peoples bored through earth as maggots through flesh. Tolkien made them more militant, and also added his own history, but kept them very Scandinavian for the most part. D&D basically stole Tolkien's dwarves, basing their character on that of a few individuals in his books. In myth, however, their origins became mixed with the gnomes of European myths, whom I will describe next.

The classical alchemist Paracelsus described gnomes as the greatest spirits of elemental earth who could swim through their element as fish through water. They were thus tied to it, and worked it wonderfully. Slowly becoming more manlike, they eventually evolved, in the minds of the European populace, into another type of faerie folk. Akin to goblins, albeit more often helpful, the gnomes either had many names or many similar cousins, such as the German knockers. They were, at various times, associated with spirits of the underworld (aka the afterlife, which was associated with the earth and thought to be deep underground) and with spirits of nature, caring for both the woodlands surrounding their underground homes and the creatures that inhabited them. D&D played up the magical aspect of their faeriedom, but was split between associating them with earth (making them miniature dwarves) or with nature in general (making them miniature elves). Tolkien never used gnomes, per se, although he originally named the Noldorim elves "gnomes", from the Greek "gnosis" for "knowledge". Everybody else demoted the spiritual creatures to little garden statues, which I consider an unforgiveable crime.

Finally, we have halflings. In appearance, they were originally an obvious ripoff of Tolkein's hobbits. Hobbits are creatures invented by Tolkien entirely. The name could come from any of the numerous faeries with "hob-" or "small" in their names, such as "hobgoblin", which was originally a smaller form of goblin (much unlike their D&D counterparts). In fact, there has been mention of "hobbits" in old compilations of faerie folk, but they were never expanded upon and Tolkien could only be held guilty for subconsciously taking the name from something he might have once read. The makers of D&D did not have the rights to the word "hobbit", a problem they often ran into while borrowing ideas from Tolkien (see Balor/Balrog). They thus took the unpatented "halfling" and made a few changes to their behaviour. Thus, the material plane halflings are lithe and agile tricksters (based on Bilbo's shortlived career as a thief, no doubt) with a gypsy like culture. The more sedentary features of Tolkien's hobbit race were applied to the D&D Gnomes, with whom nobody could decide what to do with, apparently. Thus, Bytopia is very similar to Tolkien's Shire, but strangely so is the halfling heaven in Mount Celestia. This further shows the indecisveness of how much each should be based on the concept it was originally copied from.

I hope those little summaries helped in the discussion. In my opinion, such books as Races of the Wild, Races of Stone, and Races of Destiny really helped flesh out the 3e versions of these creatures. On the other hand, other 3e books vary in their cohesiveness to this concept, creating further trouble. This is complicated even more in Planescape, which takes some of its planes (Ysgard being a prime example) from real world mythology (Norse in the former example) that overlaps that upon which some of the material plane races are based. Some of the myths also contradict each other, which is natural in the evolving mythologies of the real world, but hard to effectively explain in the coexitent realms of Planescape. Of course, it could all be chalked up to lies and misunderstandings, but that can only get you so far. I guess, eventually, its all left up to the individual DM's, since WotC does not seem to be doing a good job in creating a cohesive canon for 3.5e D&D, much less Planescape.

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Iavas, that was very well-written and displays your extensive knowledge on these topics. Two minor errors were made in regards to DnD, one is that the elves became the pointy-eared, treehugging, bisexuals prior by at least 2e. Halflings as gypsies and thieves is new to 3e; in 2e they were pastorial and virtually indistinguishable from hobbits.

The inconsistences of Planescape can be explained as the inability of the human mind to comprehend the various aspects of infinity (after all, the human mind evolved to face the challenges of the material plane not to understand the outer planes). I'm sure Pit Fiends, Illithids, and the sort are capable of understanding and seeing through all of the apparent contradictions. As such, I sometimes include conflicting information in my Planescape campaigns to display the incomprehensibility of the planes.

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Hobbit is pseudo-English pseudo-derived from pseudo-Old-English holbytla.

Other than that, great little essay!

I love Tolkien's Elves a ton, but I don't think they belong anywhere near a D&D-style multiversal setting.
I was exposed to Magic: the Gathering before D&D, so I think of D&D Elves mostly as the near-fae creatures they seem to be in Magic. I think it would be interesting to play them as similar to the fae in not fully relating to human(oid) concepts of morality. A more Chaotic-Neutral, and less Good, approach if you will.

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Which would tie into what Duckluck said.

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Thanks for the praise. I am fascinated with mythology of all kinds, so I do study it on occasion.

A few things I want to point out, though. Vaevictis: holbytla is Westernese (one of Tolkien's languages for the humans) for "hole-builder". However, that's only the origin of the word in his mythos, not in real life. Mak: I don't really know much about pre 2e D&D, and only the Planescape setting from 2e. So thanks for pointing out those errors.

I tried not to push too much of my opinion concerning how the races should be handled. Mostly, this is because I haven't really reached a conclusion myself. If anything, it should be left up to individual DM's. Otherwise, there would probably have to be a noticeable division between the various groups of the same race from different planes, which now that I think about it isn't a bad idea.

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Quote:
Which would tie into what Duckluck said.

That it would. Chaotic Neutral elves are the way of the future (as evidenced by my proposed destruction of Arvandor on the Urban Planescape forum). I'm actually not opposed to making them be somehow distantly related to the fae, I simply don't want them to be even partly divine. Divine or semi-Divine races really aren't meant to be played in D&D (hence the generally absurdly high Level Adjustments), and having elves be anything too similar to Tolkien's concept just throws that idea out the window. Which is a very bad thing indeed.

I'm of the opinion that game balance has an intangible form that goes beyond simply having equivelent stats to making each race be equally interesting to play. Right now, Dwarves get a lot of play mostly because they are incredibly over-powered, whereas Elves get a lot of play because people still treat them like the ones found in Tolkien. That notion is slowly weakening though, and giving them a clear origin of their own might actually fight it as much as reinforce it. One can only hope.

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'Iavas' wrote:
A few things I want to point out, though. Vaevictus: holbytla is Westernese (one of Tolkien's languages for the humans) for "hole-builder". However, that's only the origin of the word in his mythos, not in real life.

No, Holbytla is pseudo-OE, Hobbit is pseudo-English. In Westron they are Kuduk, and in Rohirrim Kud-dukan. It's just that in LotR they are usually translated into English and OE, respectively.

And my name has not any letter "u" in it.

Sorry this is so OT.

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Sorry, fixed the name.

Didn't understand that that is what you meant by pseudo-Old English. And I was mistaken, it was Rohirrim, not Westron, that is equated with Anglo-Saxon and is the origin for hol-bytlan. Still, the real life origin is from the German "hob-" (small). So, we're both right, but we're coming to it from different sides. Anyway, that's way off topic.

Elves, immortality, constant degredation... discuss.

420
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'Iavas' wrote:
Thanks for the praise. I am fascinated with mythology of all kinds, so I do study it on occasion.
It's been years since I've had access to an Encyclopedia of Legendary Creatures. Got any info on the origins of brownies and gremlins rattling around in that bone-box of yours?

As for elves, I encountered them first in books about mythological creatures. Where they were relatively small fey, sometimes with wings. And, like all fey, wholly alien to the minds of humans. Next was the AD&D Monster Manual where they were depicted as militaristic race with the amazing ability to multiclass. After that I was mostly exposed to them in CRPG's in the 80's and 90's where they were nothing more than skinny isolationist tree-huggers that could work a bow. (I hated that stupid Robin Hood wannabe in Gauntlet.)

I didn't read Lord of the Rings until they made the movie, (I always read a book before I see a movie made about it). I was completely surprised by the otherwordly/divine aspect of elves in LotR. Even so, they still just seemed like evolutionary antiques, forced to move to make way for the next big thing: Humans.

In a way the elves have always felt like that to me, the fey are old world myths that have no power in this day and age (regardless of whether they really exist). D&D elves were just weaklings, albeit long lived weaklings, that have just gotten weaker over time. The LotR "ueber elves" were old and tired and ready to leave the world and indeed were mostly gone by the time the story takes place.

Oh, and the Forgotten Realms idea to "end" the retreat and uh... have a "reverse retreat" is remarkably half-assed. Adding more elves won't make them better!

-420

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