Undead in UPS

Undead would make some pretty nice armies, I'd think, for the reasons Duckluck mentioned. Since a group of powerful enough necromancers could potentially continue raising zombies/skeletons as long as the army keeps going, and they'd have guns (which do damage that zombies and skellys happen to have DR against, and since assault rifles are likely to have become more common than maces/clubs in most armies, that DR is likely to be somewhat difficult to deal with) they'd be perfect 'meatgrinder' troops, plus they happen to not be subject to ability damage or poisons. Set them fighting, drop a few chemical- or bio-weapons, and you've got a nice fearsome army. Add in armor (which your newly raised ones taken as 'spoils of war' might already have) and they'd be reasonably difficult to hit.

Yeah, but most people are killed by one or two shots from an assault rifle, so they still have the edge. Skeletons are even worse.

I'd go the other way on that. Gunfire would shatter a skeleton's bones, whereas a zombie would just get bits of metal embedded in its unfeeling flesh.

Both excellent points. Zombies in classic d20 already have DR bypassed by slashing weapons; they don't have circulatory systems to bruise under bludgeoning weapons and piercing weapons don't cut enough meat up. What sems to stop them is actually cutting apart the muscles they need to move, and eventually the brain (probably where the enchantment is tied). Vice versa, skeletons' DR is bypassed by bludgeoning; it's easy to break a bone with a swing, but a blade can hack a bit at best (and maybe glance off) and an arrow could sail right through.

Guns in d20 Modern do "ballistic" damage, a type not listed in classic 3.5, but I suspect that it differs from piercing damage primarily in the wake it leaves -- the "exit wound." That requires flesh to function to begin with, but I see no reason it would be different for zombies. A chunk blown out of a zombie has less stopping power than it would for the creature the zombie was made from -- it's just not as efficient as a cut. And skeletons don't have the flesh to rip apart. So I think both are pretty effective troops versus guns, which are basically bigger badder piercing weapons.

A frag grenade does slashing damage, if you're looking to fight zombies. So does a chain saw. ^_^ For skeletons, your rifle butt may work better than bullets; C4 does 'concussion' damage, which sounds like it would also work well. (And if you're up against mummies, may I recommend thermite, or possibly a nice Molotov cocktail!)

One also wonders about the reactions people would have to undead in a modern Planescape campaign. In a certain sense, they're the canonical definition of evil, but then, modernity blurs those lines a lot. Cheap labor is cheap labor, and unscupulous factory owners with a need for cheap labor have been responsible for a lot of manufacturing over the centuries -- kids and debt slaves have been used, and hey, zombies don't complain, and they don't even have human rights, right? Vampires affected the trappings of nobility in older days -- modern-day vampires, well, there are whole game worlds about those fellows.

Picture this: a tidy little office in the dingy part of town. Someone in need of money goes in. They come out with a wad of cash. Some time later -- perhaps a long time later, the owner of this business can afford to be patient -- they die. And a tidy little man in a tidy little suit shows up at the family's door with a contract legally permitting him the use of the dearly departed's corporeal remains....

My thoughts on undead using firearms...

Fire: Probably
Aim: Not very well (?)
Reload: Most likely not (too complicated?)

I was thinking of that too.

I'm imagining skeletons with their skulls packed full of C4 and vampire masters lurking in the shadows with a red-tipped detonator pad...Boy it would be nasty to cake enough of that plastique onto a bone frame that it looked like a zombie :shock:

Or, as once came up in a conversation with my friends, C4 golems.

It's kind of a clay... %^)

First. Idea of using Skeletons and Zombies and simultaneously releasing a biological or chemical weapon on the battlefield is brilliant. You think anyone is going to mess with 5 let alone 500 skeletons when the battlefield is covered in sarin gas? I don't think so.

Second, on the topic of C4 skeletons. Two words: bone shrapnel. Again, most heros wouldn't want to mess with 5 let alone 500.

Last. Liches of all undead have close to zero fear in most cases. Unless their phylactery is threatened, they have literally nothing to lose. With that being said, I see nothing surprising about a Lich hiding even a nuclear weapon inside his body set to go off if he's destroyed. It's not like he wont be back within a week to a month and a half either way.

Lets not forget that Undead are probably immune to a lot more than poison and disease. For example: Radiation.

A clever lich could easily use this to their advantage. The use of dirty bombs to make an area radioactive and kill the populace, raise their corpses, and prepare for the next wave of dirty bombs to expand your territory. Anyone trying to resist would need radiation suits. And if the undead armies have guns, all it takes is one hit and your suit is breached if the bullet does not kill you.

A few notes:

In the Lower Planes, probably not. Other places though....? Ever seen the end of Shawn of the Dead? In time, people are going to be more like people are today- the commoners are working their toil to go home and watch game shows and reality TV at night. Many wouldnt have the sheer brutality required to off their relatives or friends if they turned undead- theyd keep em around, as you said, as cheap labor. Even so, they wouldnt treat them so much as disposable items- as much as honored members of the family; or at least something that WAS alive and still bears a strong resemblance to their former family/friend/lover/etc.

All zombie movies show this aspect- Dawn of the Dead with the guy and his zombie wife; Shawn of the Dead in its end results; even the Resident Evil films (keeping the bitten chick around for the majority of the movie in #1 and 2; as well as the priest in #2 feeding dead bodies to his zombified sister).

As 'media culture' overtakes intelligence; the only thing to rely on in such a situation is instinct- if you dont have that instinct anymore (robbed via TV or other forms of media), then you are far less likely to be hardened to 'realities' such as killing a person you were once close to (even if they are trying to gnaw your arms off).

I think sending an army of undead forth would be seen as a heinous act (whered you GET all those bodies? finding a large number of suitable corpses without killing a large number of living is going to be hard) and, much like use of other bio/chemical/viral weapons, it would be outlawed and seen as yet another foul form of war fare.

And honestly; why JUST send an army forth of undead? Thats wasteful. Sned them in ALIVE first; THEN raise them- sending in your first wave; letting them get chopped in the machine guns, then raising them to shield the second wave is a great tactic- not only is it scary and surprising, but it can be repeated a number of times (however many waves of living things you have to begin with). Im sure the Lower Planes armies would make use of this sort of warfare; if they werent already.

What kind of guns are we talking here? I mean, Ive fired and made us of a number of models- almost none were harder to load than swinging a large sword in terms of complication.

You press a button, empty clip falls out, you pop in another, cock and youre ready to go- its not a wickedly complicated matter.

But lets be realistic here- these armies would be killed off in seconds by a few clerics in full, state of the art body armor- as exemplified by the LA robberies in the 90's, numbers are not always the answer.

If you cant kill a singular enemy with gun fire; then guns are pretty useless. Thusly, a few HEAVILY armored clerics could take on unnumbered amounts of undead. This armor could come in many forms- something as simple as this(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3CzYw5-qdA) or as complicated as some sort of mecha-style. biomechanical body suit (see Neon Genesis Evangelion).

Or even something thats LITERALLY like an Eva (from Neon Genesis Evangelion), a whole new creation- a divine biomechanical machine, a different design than the modron idea entirely.

Consider if you will, a robotic creature imbued with undead turning powers of a cleric- considering this is Planescape, I REALLY dont think it would be that hard to consider a biomechanical AI thats capable of the VERY basest forms of 'belief' or 'faith'; possibly even preprogrammed. These are the answer to the undead armies- a few heavily armored 'tank' clerics could easily defeat said undead by the droves without a single shot.... or, even worse, turn them back on their masters.

Maintaining control of a large force of undead can be very difficult; especially if you yourself are ducking bullets- a vampire may be undead, but catching a bullet in the face still HURTS- if not in terms of 'pain' as much as acknoledgement of physical dmg.

Basically, I just dont think undead would have the overall effectiveness they are being given credit for.

A C4 skeleton is a serious problem for a group of adventurers or a small special tactics force- but an army of skeletons with AKs (while very cool looking) just wouldnt be nearly as effective.

Do skeletons and zombies have the capacity to take cover? Can they understand the concept of bottle necks? Because if not, artillery and tactics would crush them without much trouble- I dont care how much DR you say a skeleton has to bludgeoning, a 200 lb artillery shell is going to blow them the hell up or at least damage them to a point of being FAR less effective. A skeleton/zombie with no legs isnt nearly as dangerous as youd think really; even if armed- those bullets run out eventually.

You seem to be SERIOUSLY underestimating what real warfare is like- sending waves of enemies dosnt work when modern weapons are involved, theres too much bunching and a few heavy weapons can take out an entire army in seconds- WW 1 taught us that; read your history books

However, I DO agree with the obvious versatility as a terroristic avenue- a well fleshed, fresh killed zombie is going to blend right in.... for long enough to blow himself up at least.

Radiation- yes, I DO believe most undead would be immune to radiation as is. However, that DOSNT mean they could withstand a nuclear blast- which means one big boom and a few million skellies would be blown INTO DUST. A nuclear blast would VAPORIZE a zombie or a skeleton, and I have a hard time believing (using magic NO DOUBT) that the resulting explosion of a nuclear blast could not be contained within an area. Basically, I dont think setting of a nuke would have the same impact as it does for us today- the ability to contain said force within the ranks of your foe and allieviate collateral damage would change things immensely- especially if one could somehow nullify the radiation, or contain it as well.

Immunity to acid would have little, if anything, to do with biological weapons- they come in FAR too many types to counter with a single immunity. Same with viral warfare- mucking about in crap and nastiness may make you immune to diseases that result from wallowing in filth; but I see no reason it would effect things like ebola, smallpox, etc. Even things like the common cold have little to do with mucking in filth, and thusly I think its silly to just give that sort of broad immunity.

Also, something to note- over time, a zombies body WOULD begin to break down in the presence of heavy levels of radiation. Their cells (simply biological matter with a sprinkling of magic to make them move) would break down- in time, the zombies themselves would begin to literally fall apart. Im not sure what effects heavy doses of radiation have on bone; but id assume its not good in terms of its structural quality.

Overall, in terms of effort, control and effectiveness, I would have to give my vote for a living army- intelligent soldiers with the capacity for thought are what MAKES an army. An army of idiot drones wouldnt get far in todays millitary; and it certainly wouldnt last long in UPS- a few clerics, a few tanks, a few fireballs, end game.

The only way I could see this working is with some sort of intelligence. And lets be very clear- most intelligent undead have no desire to serve the forces of some large army. They are going to live forever, why waste ones time fighting for someone else? I can see maybe a few intelligent undead serving as mercenaries; but I dont see an army of intelligent undead forming.

However.... you COULD work things so as to place an AI in charge of these creatures. Hook up a bunch of zombies/skellies with combat AI and let em go to town- now THAT would be VERY scary- cold, brutal logic given a form and a gun is bad news. And whats more, hook them all to a network and ALL your soldiers can be run by a central force via satelite or radio transmissions. (Anyone car to explain how satelites would work on the Planes btw? Just been wondering about that...)

With zombies, you are basically making a terminator- a body with little to no weakness, feels no pain, but is incredibly intelligent in combat.

Another issue there would be answered- since these may not be TRUE undead, they may not be subject to turning. This could pose a SERIOUS issue for clerics- does a biomechanical combination of a zombie and mechanical parts count as 'undead', or is it something else entirely?

Again, the only way I can see mass numbers of undead being useful is if ingrained with some technological update- as they are, skeletons, zombies and other low-CR undead are simply too stupid, too slow, too difficult to obtain/control/protect and overall too ineffective to hold a candle to an intelligent combatant- no matter the terrain.

And, all things considered, mechanical drones (any number of contructs) are simpler to make, extremely intelligent, can be VERY fast, are easy to control AND can function as a simultaneous force (via networks).

Not to mention the fact that they have ALL the same immunities that undead do, and a few more in some cases.

Oh, AND they wouldnt be looked down upon nearly as much as undead as weapons- I have no reason to believe that the celestials would have any issues with sending forth 'soulless' machines to do their fighting- enter the Warforged, Stage 2 (aka, W2's.

The creation forges are studied and the technology relearned- planar forges begin churning out a new version of the warforged; EXTREMELY intelligent, designed to function in unison with other large forces of W2's.

They are, without a DOUBT, the perfect soldiers for the kind of warfare you are talking about.... the question for us as the designers is: Do these new constructs eventually achieve a sentience? And, if so, what is their general reaction to being created as nothing more than weapons? (see Matrix, Terminator 1-3, etc.)

>:D

End point: Undead armies wouldnt hold a candle to construct/machine armies.... but, whatever the makeup, an army of intelligent creatures that at some point realize THEY are more intelligent than their 'masters' are going to turn on them... and the results could be VERY interesting for us in this capacity.

Good counter points!

Negative energy weapons would be very useful; its likely their effect would also maximize negative energy spells; and possibly even negate the use of positive energy within their radius.

Again, 2 problems with the undead as soldiers yet to be solved (maybe):

1. Clerics/divine creatures- thinking about it more, I realized: warforged and modrons can become clerics; so why couldnt any other sentient construct? Elder Eidolens (sp?) from LoM (they were created by mind flayers I think?) or a construct like them would be specially useful in this regard.

As is, high level clerics just beat undead- theres really no way around it. As soon as the undead enter strike range of turning/rebuking; they are either destroyed, sent fleeing, or turned on their former masters.

The question I dont know is: Does turning make use of positive energy? If so, good clerics would have a very hard time dealing with the negative energy weapons- though, as I remember, constructs are immune to negative/positive energy? At least, I know they recieve less dmg/healing from such spells. Either way, construct clerics would be a nightmare if using undead in large numbers.

2. As stated above, construct soldiers would be immune/resistant to negative/positive energy. On top of that, they are immune to ability damage- greatly reducing incorporeal undeads effectiveness (as most incorps deal some sort of ability drain as their main attack).

What it comes down to is; in order to use undead in the large scale it would require alot of resources, alot of power and alot of time. This includes making sure your soldiers arent turned/rebuked, using some sort of weapon (biological, viral, chemical, negative energy) to level the playing field for your droning combatants, AND ensuring that said combatants are well armed/armored against the bombardment of attacks they are likely to recieve.

True, alot of what I described is large scale- but many/most areas are going to have access to large scale weapons. Said weapons may not be just sitting around, but you can bet that any area with some level of guardianship from a larger force (a region, a state, a city, a country, a plane, a territory, whatever) is going to get backup mighty quick when an undead army shows up.

It just seems to me that the obvious answer to large numbers of weak undead are high level clerics- the ability of a few 10th-20th level clerics to turn undead would be immense; and if they had backup to cover them it would be a short battle indeed.

Constructs seem the perfect roles for this endeavor, as they are immune to all the things undead are; thusly making it nearly impossible for the commander of a large force of low CR undead to be truly effective.

Now, dont get me wrong- undead armys WOULD exist. But I dont think it would be as common as one would see biomechanical creations.

However, I would think it would be large forces of high CR undead banded toegether under one large force- something like a prince of hell or something.

Orcus for example may make use of undead armys; probably does already in original PS. It would require someone with LOTS of resources, lots of sheer POWER and lots of TIME.

An undead army isnt something you just throw together in 2-3 weeks; these things would be decade long endeavors requiring the work of multiples of workers- consider if you will obtaining the corpses to be risen, RAISING them (LOTS of power for large numbers of undead- we are talking 1,000s to be really effective in any manner), CONTAINING/CONTROLLING them (cant have random zombie attacks in the area of your forces before they are ready, or someones gonna come along and muck it up- this is DnD, remember?lol), and finally COMMANDING them.... which would be no small feat.

Standing in front of a few thousand undead and saying 'Take that city.' sounds all well and good; but their effectiveness is going to be iffy at best.

Overall, Id say a few (very few) undead armies exist in the Planes; and almost all would be kept by extremely powerful forces.

The obvious choice for other races is to create large numbers of constructs and send them into battle; preferably with divine turning/rebuking powers.

While it is possible for a construct to be a cleric, those are intelligent constructs; turning and rebuking are done with divine aid, or at least with the focus of belief in some principle, and that requires more awareness than a mass-produced unintelligent machine can muster. (Mass-producing intelligent machines changes a society radically.)

The notion of cleric-EVA walking around UPS is darned interesting -- as a partial model, we might consider Mephistopheles' hellfire engines in FC2 -- but remember, the EVA were themselves bound, intelligent beings.

As for negative-energy bombs... probably as hard to make as a nuke, and just as widely controlled. In Planescape, negative energy is as much a natural hazard as radioactivity, and with more immediate effects.

(By the way, I didn't mean to imply that an immunity to acid damage would translate into an immunity to biological weapons. I was speaking of an immunity to chemical weapons, which act by directly burning flesh, especially the tissues of the lungs. Of course, in d20 a "nerve gas" attack is just as likely to be a coordinated release of cloudkill spells.)