Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

23 posts / 0 new
Last post
Evil's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-11-12
Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Under this topic I will try to expand on the subject of nomadic cultures' afterlife on the planes: Their their culture, religion-gods, their realms, their effect on the planes. Since I am Turkish, this is a subject that I have a personal interst on. I have been intending to start this for sometime, but I could only read enough information to start today (just before my German test. great). You are free to give your opinion, critisisim and ideas, and if you have any extra info on the subject, please share.

After this quick entry I will start by these important points concerning the material,
1. SHAMANISM IS NOT A RELIGION. A common mistake. Apparently Russian Anthropoligists found traces of Shamanistic rituals on some of the remaining nomadic tribes, and thought that this was a full fledged religion back in the old days. While a form of shamanism was practiced among the peoples of Deserts, steppes and tundras of Asia, it was not a religion. It dealt with magic, spirits, curing illnesess,and telling prophecies. People who worked with spirits were called many names in many groups, a prominent one is Kam. He does not have clerical status.
2. ONE GOD. It seems that unlike almost all of their contemporaries, these people were not heterodoxal: In essence, they believed in a single god which creates/rules the world and the heavens. It is called Tengri, meaning sky. However, this belief was influenced by many of the diverse cultures they encountered, and sometimes developed(or degenerated) to heterodoxy. A theory is that, when the people are united under a pwerful state, the religion is mostly monotheist, however when the empire falls apart and the various large groups go on their way, heterodoxy grows. Since a monodeist approach is "no fun" in PS terms, I will also include some of the other, lesser, powers.
3. SPIRITS: Spirits are everywhere, and they pretty much are responsible from anything that happens to people. Now, I don't like the shaman/spirit world representations I have found on the canon material(I remember it being, oh, it doesn't exist but you think it does, you don't actually go there etc etc), but I guess that's what we have to work with. In 4th edition terms, I guess spirits live on the feywild or shadowlie according to their mood. Also, it is worth noting that it was believed that a man had three spirits (some times more).
4. ANCESTORS: Respect to the ancestors was of highest importance in these cultures. They beleived that their ancestors spirits (one of them, anyway) stayed on the earth to guide their descendants, help the Kams in their voyages to the spirit world, bring good luck, etc. They also believed in afterlife, so buried their dead with some of his wealth, sometimes his horse. They visited some of the more "holy" burial sites on certain times. It is said that Attila led a campaign to Balkans because tomb raiders there had desecrated their burial sites.
5. WOMEN: Women were productive members in an old nomadic society. They were subservient to men, but were in much better condition then in many places which treated women like slaves. Almost no repression, though you still shouldn't judge by todays standards. Female Kams existed, and the Hatun / Queen was second in power to the Khan.
5. LIFE IS HARD: Out on the mountais, steppes, tundras, deserts and wastelands that make up the majority of the central Asian homeland, life is hard. In places like Mongolia and Kazakhstan, daily temperature differences of 50 degrees are common. There are tribes on Syberia. You don't live there. You survive. While this makes everyone of your tribe a hardened, relentless survivor, the temptation of an easier life is strong. Many great Khans have led their armies to the greenlands of Eastern Europe and China, settling, founding great kingdoms, only to be assimilated and forgotten.

But in this topic, we are interested in the hardcore nomads. Those people who live by the code "horse, woman, weapon: mobility, reproduction and protection".
More to follow.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Uh, actually, Shamanism/animism is indeed a religion, and prettymuch what all of our religions started out as. It was/is used by man to explain his world (why is there lightning, why is there suffering, why do people die, etc.). It usually followed a moralistic system of natural law (e.g. suffering exists due to violating the laws of nature/the spirits of nature personified; here is also where reincarnation comes in to explain why people suffer when they've led good lives; clearly they did something bad in a previous one.) The deity or deities in shamanism/animism tend to be neither good nor evil, since they are direct personifications of nature itself, and usually embody paradoxial portfolios (e.g. earth deities personify fertility and nature's bounty, but also personify death by wild animals, death and the grave if the worshippers bury their dead. Sky deities usually personify rulership, vitality, and life-giving rain, but also personify famine and disease. Water deities usually personify life and fertility, but also personify floods, death, and destruction.)

""WOMEN: Women were productive members in an old nomadic society. They were subservient to men, but were in much better condition then in many places which treated women like slaves. Almost no repression, though you still shouldn't judge by todays standards. Female Kams existed, and the Hatun / Queen was second in power to the Khan.""

This was only out of pure necessity however, and shouldnt' be seen as some sort of altruistic advancement of women. In ALL societies where women became more than just property or slaves prior to the 20th century, it was solely because giving women property rights and political power was essential in order to protect the mens' property/political power while they were all gone hunting/warring 70-98% of the time. The misogyny of Semitic (semitic being Hebrew, Arabic, etc.) culture throughout known history (being the most famous example of women treated as slaves in their culture-- children too, for that matter) was due largely to the fact that they acquired agriculture and animal husbandry before written history, and thus the men didn't all have to spend 95% of their time hunting for food. In the case of the Spartans, the women only gained property rights and such in order to protect the mens' properties while they were away at war for years at a time. Whereas the Semitic peoples (at least during Biblical times) generally didn't go to war for more than weeks at a time.

On the subject of nomadic life on the Planes, you have to realize that not all of the rules you listed are going to apply.

1. Most (but not all-- genies are an exception to the rule, for example) outsider races lack religion and don't worship other creatures. They have an overall 'king', 'master', and 'patron' who rules their race and their plane, but they do not worship him/her/it.

2. Most outsider races do not require food in order to survive; they get their nourishment via the essence of their native plane (e.g. Baatezu acquire all the nourishment they need to grow and thrive from the Lawful and Evil essence of their plane)

3. While it appears as though all outsider races (even Modron and Inevitables, strangely) are capable of sexual reproduction, (and even sexual reproduction with mortals...!) in most cases this is not how members of their species are born. In fact, a nomadic lifestyle is incompatible with the survival of most outer planar races since their species are born primarily via 'processing factories' of petitioners; factories which require large-scale infrastructure and staffing to churn out new outsiders. We know this to be the case for Tanar'ri, Baatezu, Yugoloths, Modrons, and Inevitables.

4. A nomadic lifestyle in D&D is incompatible with the lawfully-aligned outsiders. This is because the nomadic and frontier lifestyles in D&D settings are universally considered a chaotic-aligned situation, or neutral aligned situation at most. Lawful creatures OTOH are always considered to be an element of civilization.

A nomadic lifestyle would be far more compatible with certain inner planar races (such as air elementals) than outer ones. However, this varies widely by inner plane; the social/behavioral nature of mephits and elementals of each element/paraelement/quasielement are different, and while all mephits and elementals tend towards true neutral, the various types tend to lean more towards one alignment or other (usually more towards chaos or law than good or evil). The elemental planes are also described largely as "untamed frontiers", so again the nomadic nature fits, though the Inner Planes book is quite emphatic that most (not all, but most) types of elementals and mephits build huge cities and such (the ooze paraelementals and ooze mephits if I remember correctly are all nomadic, however, and air elementals tend towards chaos due to the 'free spirited' and 'free roaming' nature of wind.) Each type also reacts differently to outsiders (as a general rule, most types don't like outsiders; salt quasielementals are a known exception to this as they love it when creatures full of tasty fluids wander into their plane. Mineral mephits and quasielementals tend to be the most xenophobic since travelers and wandering beasts almost invariably come with the intent of making off with or eating part of their home)

Evil's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-11-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

@Hyena of Ice: Shamanism/animism/totemism may or may not have been a religion or proto religion, but this was not my point. "Shamanism was not the religion of the old Turks", was probably the better way to put it. I will not edit my above statement, to not void your post. About the women, it was just to give an understanding of the society, and you already are familiar with concept, so no problems there. The main misunderstanding was maybe that, you thought I was trying to create some Nomad outsider race/nomadize an existing outsider, which I am not. I am merely trying to implant the Nomadic Mythos/petitioners (which were an integral part of the world history) to the greatwheel, in a way that the Egyptian, Nordic or Greek Mythos did.
This was just a clarifiction post, I will continue to post on this topic. Thank you for your attention.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

""I am merely trying to implant the Nomadic Mythos/petitioners (which were an integral part of the world history) to the greatwheel, in a way that the Egyptian, Nordic or Greek Mythos did.""

Oh. I didn't realize that you were applying this only to petitioners.
I should still reinterate however that (with the exception of trade caravans), D&D considers the nomadic and frontier lifestyles to be chaotically-aligned. Therefore, you probably won't find too many nomadic petitioners on Mt. Celestia, Baator, or Mechanus.

I should also mention that while most medieval and renaissance societies weren't great when it came to gender equality, this rule doesn't usually apply to D&D campaigns; the authors of most of the settings usually stress that the major civilizations (esp. the human ones) have gender equality, and this is likely done for the purpose of streamlining (a classical patriarchal society would require the introduction of cultural elements that are foreign to modern westerners, and would be a major pain for players who want to play a female PC, as well as being a pain for DMs who want to create a female villain)

Actually, come to think of it, there is an Outer Planar race that is entirely nomadic (the Mercane, known as the Arcane in 2E). But we're talking the trade-caravan type of nomadism, and not the 'wandering tribes' type of nomadism.

Dagon's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2008-10-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Just a quick post to say that I am so very interested in helping you out with this Evil. A big part of my History Major is Early Islamic History, where the Turks and Mongols are huge players. Funnily enough, that's what my final tomorrow is on, so I'll actually say something that contributes more after that is done and gone.

Evil's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-11-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

I have been researching for my next post, which will be detailed info about the prominent gods in the pantheon. However, since Turkish mythology remained mostly unwritten untile 6-7th century and, by that time, it had scattered around pretty much to all of asia, was affected by nearly every other culture, and of course effected them too. What is a spirit in one story is a god on another, on another one, it is a different god. In short, we don't have a Homer in Turkish Mythology, so we have to make the best of what we can. I will not include the lesser known powers at this time.
hope you do great on your finals Dagon (mine are 3 weeks away). I am eagerly waiting your contribution, and everyone else's, of course.

CONCEPT:
As you know on PS, pantheons consist of godly realms where the petitioners instantly appear, and then live on until they join their god. For this panthoen, I find it insufficient. These people were nomads in life, they travelled the vast distances of Eurasia on a yearly basis. It is only logical that, their petitioner forms are travelling around the planes too. I'm goign to try to scatter a number of realms and other important, Mythological locations on a number of planes. The petioners travel between those planes in great nomadic migrations. Moreover, these locations are all scattered around harsh locations, like these petioners were used to. I will need help from the community about the details, but I think some important locations are: 3rd layer of Ysgard, 3rd layer of Arcadia, Beastlands, 3rd layer of Elysium, 2nd layer of Bytopia, and Mt Celestia.

ABOUT TURKISH COSMOLOGY
The heaven is made up of 17 levels, the underworld is made up of 9 levels, one for each world (don't know what this means), and there is one earth (representing the prime world I guess).

TURKISH CREATION MYTH (Summarised, adapted for PS version)
When everything was new, Ulgan was flying forever over an endless sea. He heard a voice from the heaven call to him to catch the stone that would appear out of the blue, and hold on to it. He obeyed the voice of heaven and caught the stone. He was happy now that he had someplace to stand on. However, Ulgan was alone and had no one. Suddenly, Ak Ana appeared out of the sea and told him to (in true poetic fashion):
If you want to create something too, Ulgan;
As the creator, learn this holy word:
Always say "I did, it became", and nothing else!
Especially when creating, never say "I did, it didn't become!"
And with that she disappeared. However Ulgan never forgot her words and always told this to men:
"Listen O people,
Do not unmake what is,
by saying nothing exists
do not cease to exist"
and Ulgan started creating, at first, from mud he created Erlik. Erlik tried to become a god like Ulgan, and was banished to become the ruler of underworld. Ulgan created the tree of life with 9 branches, and from each branch sprang a man. Each man was the ancestor of a different nation...

Analysis:
On my first post I had said that women held a higher position in Turkish society than their contemporaries. The above myth is a fine example, as Ulgan learns the secret of creation from a woman. It also shows that the world, at least the sea and heaven, existed before Ulgan started creating, so probably Tengri or Ak Ana is responsible for that. Remember, she says to Ulgan "if you want to create too" which means there were others capable of creating before Ulgan. An uncharacteristically realistic approach to creation from a myth, and very fittig to PS. I'm sure the Athar would love to hear this "confession".

Summarized List of Powers
1. Tengri (Kayra Kan) : Greater power, chief of pantheon.
2. Ak Ana (White Mother): Divine rank unknown. A mysterious being from underwater, who thaught Ulgan to create.
3. Ulgan: Intermediate to Greater power, good, created by Tengri, and is responsible of the world and mankind.
4. Umay: Intermediate power, fertiliy, virginity and protection goddess. Second oldest god known after Tengri, may or may not be the same with Ak Ana.
5. Erlik: Evil Intermediate power, lord of underworld. First Man created by Tengri or Ulgan(depending on who tells the story)
6. Yer Su (Land Water): Depending on the story, either a group or category of nature spirits, or an earth goddess. Divine rank unkown.

Hope to return soon

Evil's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-11-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Tengri, Tengri Kayra Kan: Represents, as the infinite blue skies, the infinity. Dwells on the 17th level of Heaven. All other gods are said to be created from him. He is the one who gives the power to rule, the Kut, to the Khans or Hakans. His interests lie on the unification of his chief worshippers, Turkic peoples. He does not appear in physical form or directly answer prayers, but, his presence is felt in the greatest events of time, such as the rise and fall of great empires, or the creation and destruction of the world. He does not require temples, though people climb on the highest mountain peaks to be close to him.
In PS Terms: A Greater Power, dealing with creation, sky, and other things like domination, rulers, etc. There are no upper planes with 17 layers, so I guess he exists on the 7th layer of Mt Celestia, even though it seems, like most Super-Greater Powers, as True Neutral. A nice thing would be to follow the same route that the real life religion did, and have the Tengri replaced by Ulgan (more on him later). Let's say he moved up to the 7th layer of the Mt (It is said that "there are 7 obstacles on the way to Tengri", the 7 layers may be?), or more likely already made that mysterious "Jump" to the next phase, rumored in On Hallowed Ground. He still has lots of worshippers but, his spells are granted by Ulgan.

Ulgan (Bay Ulgan): God of goodness, benevolence, welfare, etc, also the ruler of Heaven (skies and stars) and weather. Created by Tengri to watch over the world, however in time evolved to take his place as the chief of pantheon. He is sometimes told to be the creator of the world and humans, however he learned the secret of creation from a mysterious entity called Ak Ana (White Mother). Dwells on the 16th level of heaven in a golden palace. He is the one who gives kams(shamans) their spiritual powers, and only kams can reach him. Still, a Kam who can reach him past the 5th level is nearly unheard of. He has 9 sons and 7 daughters, and they guide the Kams on their way to Ulgan. He is the one who brought fire to humans. He is the rival of Erlik, the god of evil.
In PS terms: A Greater Power. He was formerly of intermediate status, but he is slowly taking the place of Tengri as the chief of pantheon, now that he is "unavailable". Portfolio includes, good, law, protection, magic, sky, weather, fire and creation. Probably lives on 6th layer of Mt Celestia, in the realm Golden Palace. Something of an all-in-one god, which is logical since there are not many powers in the pantheon (yet).

Umay: Considered the companion of Tengri, she is the goddess of fertility and virginity(purity?). She is the second oldest known Turkic deity after Tengri, and was considered his second in power. She protects the mother and the baby in her womb, from harm and evil spirits. When a baby is born, Umay gives it a drop of milk from the Lake of Milk on Heaven, thus granting it spirit. She stays with the child all the way to adulthood. May or may not be the same being as Ak-Ana.
In PS terms: The Tengri May have left but Umay is still well. At least an Intermediate power, she seems to be a typical fertility goddess, however the Lake of Milk is interesting. According to some myths, it is on the "3rd Heaven", or "beyond the Kaf Mountain", a term used for things nearly impossible to find or reach... On another legend, it is the place where the sinners are taken after their term in hell. I think this fits Belierin, 3rd layer of Elysium perfectly.

Erlik: The first Man created by Tengri, Erlik wished to become a god like him. He rebelled and was cast out to the lowest level of the Underworld, probably the ninth or seventh. When Ulgan was left to care for the remaining humans on the world, Erlik opposed him. He is the power of evil and darkness, lord of the underworld and the judge of the dead. He sits on a silver throne in a palace of green steel, and a black sun shines dimly upon him. He has 9 sons and 9 daughters, and they are all notorious for drawing good men, especially Kams, towards evil. Kams who communicate with Erlik are called Kara(Black). He is the one who thought men sin. He is described as an athletic, old man, whose forked black beard reaches his knees, moustache reach his ears, has horns like tree roots. He carries a sword and shield of black iron, and rides a huge black bull. His name means “manhood” in modern Turkish, “Strength” in old Turkish.
In PS terms: Definitely an Intermediate power. Portfolio includes Evil, magic, dead, pestilence, strength, lust. I have real trouble finding a fitting place for him in the lower planes. Palace of green steel and 7th or 9th layer of hell reminds Baator. However I don’t think Erlik is Lawful. The dead, and the dim sun said to shine on his realm suggests Grey Wastes. According to legend, Erlik’s 9 daughters seduce Kams while they are trying to communicate with higher beings. If they are seduced to their bed, they are imprisoned in Erlik’s Palace for eternity. This sounds like Carceri. I am open to suggestions about this guy’s kip, as he will be a major player. Since he has dead in his portfolio, I think the migration of petitioners start at his realm, which means its location is very important.

Ak-Ana(White Mother): As described in my previous post, Ak-Ana thought Ulgan to create. She taught him the words of creation, perhaps. This means she is a very powerful entity, however, I have trouble determining whether she is a form of Umay or Yer Su, or a separate entity. I would like to think the latter. Since she appears out of the sea, she may be living under Oceanus.
In PS terms: A NG power of unknown divine rank, and I would like to keep her that way. She may just be one of the mysterious forces in the multiverse. She is believed to live under Oceanus, but never seen.

Yer-Su (Land/Earth/Ground-Water): She is uttered in the same breath as Umay and Tengri in the oldest Turkish text known, however it is debated whether she is a goddess or a spirit, or a group of spirits. As you can see from the translation of her name, she can be a traditional earth-goddess, reminding Gaea. Whether or not she is a goddess, this being has some control over the nature spirits. Lives on Beastlands or Outlands on a mythical mountain called Otuken.
In PS Terms: Another power I need to do more research on. If she is indeed a power, it must be at least of intermediate rank. Portfolio includes earth, water, nature, spirits, etc. I think she belongs on the Beastlands. Her realm is a mythical Mountain called Otuken.The trees on the mountain reflect her mood. In the meantime, I await your suggestions.

This is pretty much all I have on the major gods right now. Sure there are other (especially coming from Altai Myths) but it is hard to find consistent material on them. Main topics we need to discuss now are:
-What are the 17 levels of heaven? Does it directly symbolise the number of outerplanes? If so, where are the 9 or 7 levels of hell? If each level of Heaven symbolises another layer on the upper planes, which one is which?
-Where is Erlik’s realm, The Palace of Green Steel.
-What is Yer-Su, and where is she?
- What other powers are there and where are they?

Samloyal23's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2004-05-25
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Calling shamanism a religion is like calling monotheism a religion. Shamanism is a type religion, not a single creed. Every tribe has its own traditions and spirits and rituals...

__________________

I'm Samuel M. Wright, and you're not.

Dagon's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2008-10-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Okay, I'm done exams, so I've started in on some readings. I've found this book via Google: written in 1900.
http://books.google.com/books/p/pub-4297897631756504?id=fqgWygSpO7AC&pri...
Looks to be interesting, although from what I've read, the creation myth is similar, yet different. I'll get into it more once I've read all of it. I've also got about 4 or 5 scholarly articles from Jstor. Thank you university!

Anyhow, some thoughts on what you've said Evil:

I really like your idea of wandering petitioners, it sounds very fitting for the people of the steppes. I'd suggest that both the spirits in heaven and the spirits in hell are capable of traveling to and from each part of their respective after life, so those in heaven can eventually reach all 19 locations. I'd also suggest that each "layer" be interpenetrated as a separate divine realm, and the that Turk-Mongolian Gods be capable of moving from realm to realm as well. Thus, after a great deal of time, a noble petitioner could gain access to all seven realms of Celestia, as well as the Beastlands and any other Upper/Neutral Planes we deem appropriate.

Mount Celestia:
Fun fact, often forgotten. Mount Celestia actually has a whole bunch of Mountains poking up out of the Ocean on Lunia. So we can have an entire mountain that is just seven of the nineteen divine realms stacked one on top of the other. I feel really strongly that Lunia should also be an important place, possibly the initial location of the petitioners. Might seem odd, but Ak-Ana came from the ocean and Chinggis Khan translates roughly to Oceanic Lord, or Lord of All Bound by Oceans. You've got to think that there must be a cultural attraction to the sea for him to pick that name. Other ocean or water themed layers may also be appropriate, I recall there was one on Arborea, but I don't recall which one it was.

I've got more thoughts, but I'm way too tired right now. I'll post more once I've got more readings done.

Evil's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-11-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

What I've thought is something similar. Basically my plan is that the petitioners first arrive to their afterlife in Erlik's realm(since he is the Judge of the dead in some myths), and those who are judged worthy are allowed to leave immidately. Those who are found guilty are kept until they have suffered enough to repent, and then are allowed to leave the realm too. Those who remain forever in Erlik's realm (Palace of Steel) is only the Kara Kam(Black Kams) or others who have served Erlik Directly, or those Kams who were deceived by the Daughters of Erlik.
Now, The petitioners leave whatever realm Erlik lives in via Styx, since I've read in the Turkish wiki that Erlik's sons are not really evil guys unlike their father, and rule the waterways of the underworld, as well as other things. So perhaps they transport the innocent dead through the Styx to a nearby portal, where they move on to the next realm.
Now, as you have noticed, I don't know what the other 16 Heaven and 6 hells are besides the ones I have already counted. So there is a huge gap until they reach the places where Tengri or Ulgan dwells.
About all petitioners visiting all realms, well, I've a slightly different idea. Basically petitioners travel from one realm to another until they have found the one that suits them. Since it is said that only Kams can reach the Golden Palace of Ulgan on the 16th Heaven, it is not necessary for the other to travel that far.
I didn't know the meaning of Genghiz Khan's name was what you said. In Turkish we write him as Cengiz, Cenk+iz, and "cenk" means "war" so I thought that his name meant warrior. But "cenk" probably comes from Persian or Arabic. The layer you are looking is the second layer of Arborea, though I think that for Ak-Ana, Thalasia, the 4th layer of Elysium is more fitting, since it is somehow more mysterious.
I want the petitioners to visit the 3rd layer of Arborea, because that layer is fitting as a desert for these petitioners to travel in, and damn if it doesn't need the extra attention. The concept I had was, The site (or realm) they visit there is basically a vast holy burial ground. there they visit the graves of the fallen heroes. Another twist would be that their own graves in Prime exist there as well, and since they are buried there with some of their earthly possesions, they search their own graves to get to them. This would create countless adventure hooks as well as fit the layers feel. However I need to find out if there is a power related to dead or graves in their Mythology.

Evil's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-11-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Hmm from what I've read of the book you've linked to, the Mongolian Pantheon is quite different from what've read so far about Turkish myth. May be a crossreferencing book is in order, otherwise it may be necessary to divide this thread to two.
So far it seems the Mongolian creator is ver much like the Tengri in old Turkish, it is not described pysically. However it has three spirits, and each spirits has had a number of Tengeri(god) children which sum up to 99 tengeri in total.

evolutionary's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2009-10-18
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Interesting discussion.

It seems a little ambitious to lump Turks, Mongols, and Nomads together, so if you're aiming at a particular vision, maybe look at one rather than the others.

Especially for a take on Mongols in the Forgotten Realms spirit, I would suggest The Horde boxed set (TSR 1055).

Dagon's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2008-10-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Evil wrote:
Those who are found guilty are kept until they have suffered enough to repent, and then are allowed to leave the realm too.
Ohhh, I really like that idea. Perhaps there's a sect of petitioners who are not bound to Hell but journey there anyhow to purify themselves.
Evil wrote:
Now, The petitioners leave whatever realm Erlik lives in via Styx, since I've read in the Turkish wiki that Erlik's sons are not really evil guys unlike their father, and rule the waterways of the underworld, as well as other things. So perhaps they transport the innocent dead through the Styx to a nearby portal, where they move on to the next realm.
Any suggestions about where I can read about all of this stuff. I'd love to learn more about it.
Evil wrote:
About all petitioners visiting all realms, well, I've a slightly different idea. Basically petitioners travel from one realm to another until they have found the one that suits them. Since it is said that only Kams can reach the Golden Palace of Ulgan on the 16th Heaven, it is not necessary for the other to travel that far.
That also works amazingly, each realm would still be large enough to allow them to roam as freely as they wish.
Evil wrote:
I didn't know the meaning of Genghiz Khan's name was what you said. In Turkish we write him as Cengiz, Cenk+iz, and "cenk" means "war" so I thought that his name meant warrior. But "cenk" probably comes from Persian or Arabic.
To be fair, the Islamic Turks and Arabs in Khurasan and Syria thought that Chinggis Khan was an avatar of God's wrath and that the coming of the Mongols was literally heralding the beginning of the Apocalypse. Writing his name using Cenk and iz seems completely appropriate to me.
Evil wrote:
The layer you are looking is the second layer of Arborea, though I think that for Ak-Ana, Thalasia, the 4th layer of Elysium is more fitting, since it is somehow more mysterious.
That makes sense. I'd also say that using the 3rd layer of Elysium is an inspired choice since its part of the upper plans, but there are massive chances for conflict with evil there.
Evil wrote:
I want the petitioners to visit the 3rd layer of Arborea, because that layer is fitting as a desert for these petitioners to travel in, and damn if it doesn't need the extra attention. The concept I had was, The site (or realm) they visit there is basically a vast holy burial ground. there they visit the graves of the fallen heroes. Another twist would be that their own graves in Prime exist there as well, and since they are buried there with some of their earthly possesions, they search their own graves to get to them. This would create countless adventure hooks as well as fit the layers feel. However I need to find out if there is a power related to dead or graves in their Mythology.
I think that's also a great and would add to the setting well. Now time to draw that!

evolutionary's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2009-10-18
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Evil wrote:
I didn't know the meaning of Genghiz Khan's name was what you said. In Turkish we write him as Cengiz, Cenk+iz, and "cenk" means "war" so I thought that his name meant warrior. But "cenk" probably comes from Persian or Arabic.

In many south/central/middle eastern Asian languages that's true, from the probably Sanskrit-derived Janghir over to the steppe and into Arabia.

Evil's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-11-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Ancient Turks, like many cultures, buried their dead with some of their earthly possesions, and thought that they would carry those items to afterlife. However, what is unique about their burial sites are the small, man-like statues called "balbal"s. A balbal would be placed on the grave of the deceased for each enemy he killed in battle. So there could be tens of balbals on a single grave:

Image
balbal

What I imagine is a wasteland, littered with these small statues as far as the eye can see. The oldest of them, broken and carved in to small stones by the constant winds and sand storms of the layer, cover the ground.
Image
The feeling of being in a place belonging to the dead is overpowering, and after spending some time here a body will feel like he can actually hear the spirits of the fallen talking to her in the wind.

Center of All's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2004-05-11
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

I just started reading this topic and I'm intrigued. I'd like to see more about it. I wish I could contribute more but my history studies focus much more on China and Japan. I'm interested in more near-East history, especially the Turks, I just haven't had the opportunity to study it much yet.

The location in the last post seems like it could be a realm on the Gray Waste.

__________________

http://kaitou-kage.deviantart.com/ -- My deviantART gallery

http://www.planescapemetamorphosis.com/ -- Planescape: Metamorphosis, a Planescape webcomic in the works

Dagon's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2008-10-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Okay, I've been out for spell, so I hope everyone had a good new years.

I've got a few sketches of balbals in my books now, although I'm still trying to find a couple that I like. I've got a few that are creepy enough to work though, so if I can produce a sketch I really like, I'll defiantly upload it. Anyhow, Center's last comment gave me an idea. Has anyone seen the Doctor Who episode 'Blink'? It features living statues that can only move when no one is looking. And they move fast. Fast enough that if you blink, they can kill you. It's scary as hell. So what if there was a Turkish hell in the Grey Waste where people were plagued by the living balbals of people they've wronged? Blood brothers betrayed, innocents murdered, oaths broken and so on. They won't generally kill you, but they'd drive you to insanity pretty quick. Could make for an interesting realm, especially for the PCs, making them think about their own actions. Or, for a different twist, they could have to get information out of a corrupt warlord, only to find their own balbals tormenting him.

Edit: found the episode on youtube. If you've never watched Doctor Who before, all you need to know is that The Doctor, the guy in the Brown Suit, is both an alien and a time traveler. I strongly suggest you watch this with the lights off.

Here's part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsWFtvdi5mU

AlexanderDrake's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2008-11-25
Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Wow!

Wicke's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-04-24
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned the Outlands yet. Wide range of environments, neutrally aligned on the whole, but different areas are sort of alignmently-colored to match up with the part of the great wheel they're closest to. The plane itself has a pretty small standing population, so unless you're hanging out around the gate towns, you're not going to stumble across too many cities, towns or villages. Having different tribes make forays into other planes that best represent their overall alignment outlook would make a lot of sense. Or really, the different realms could exist in the Outlands themselves, just far out into the wilderness away from the Spire.

Maybe nomadic petitioners show up in the Outlands and are literally guided to their tribe by one of their ancestors. Wandering the mostly vacant Outlands seems quite appropriate for new petitioner, as you've described.

Evil's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-11-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

After a long pause I will try to blow some life to this old project of mine again.

Center of All wrote:
...China and Japan. I'm interested in more near-East history, especially the Turks, I just haven't had the opportunity to study it much yet.
The location in the last post seems like it could be a realm on the Gray Waste.

Well Chinese fought long and hard with the earliest Turks, so they are bound to have many myths concerning them. If you've come across any such thing please do share.
As for the location of the "Field of Balbals", (lets call it that for now), as I mentioned, Arborea's abondened 3rd layer is befitting. Grey waste, after all, is an evil plane. In the old Turkish mindset graveyards are not places where evil lurks. It is a resting place, and requires respect but not fear. Putting it on grey waste would be giving it an unnecessary evil attitude.

Dagon wrote:
So what if there was a Turkish hell in the Grey Waste where people were plagued by the living balbals of people they've wronged? Blood brothers betrayed, innocents murdered, oaths broken and so on. They won't generally kill you, but they'd drive you to insanity pretty quick. Could make for an interesting realm, especially for the PCs, making them think about their own actions. Or, for a different twist, they could have to get information out of a corrupt warlord, only to find their own balbals tormenting him.
I love the idea. I present two options: They could simply be waiting in ambush for their murderer to arrive on the Field on Arborea, masquerading as a simple Balbal, biding their time. Or, they could be in Carceri: "The third layer, Minethys, is a wind-blown desert, harsher than any found in a prime world. The sand is like ground glass and it's kicked into a frenzy by the constant wind." I imagine it would be an evil mirror of the Arborean field. Imagine a group of petitioners arriving on a field of balbals thinking they are on Arborea. Then realizing that they are imprisoned in Carceri for an eternity for their betrayal. I'm definitely adding this to the list. ***Sudden burst of inspiration: Wait, actually, all petitioners pass through this site in Carceri. But those who haven't wronged or betrayed others are simply allowed to leave. Imagine the added torment of the condemned petitioners. Fits the nature of the plane perfectly.

Wicke wrote:
I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned the Outlands yet. ...Maybe nomadic petitioners show up in the Outlands and are literally guided to their tribe by one of their ancestors. Wandering the mostly vacant Outlands seems quite appropriate for new petitioner, as you've described.

I have been thinking of what to do with the Outlands for sometime. As you've said, its central location, as well as its miriad geographical features, makes it a necessary place for a nomadic pantheon to visit. The problem is that I simply don't know what to do with it. One thing is that the petitioners appear in Outlands first. They are gathered into large groups (clans or tribes) by a realm/spirit/deity/proxy that is responsible from this. Those who refuse to join or simply can't be found remain in the Outlands:these are the true neutral petitioners. From a deity's viewpoints these are the berks who can't be trusted to take a side, and no other deity would take them anyway.
***Sudden burst of inspiration: Wait a second, I have actually been thinking for a while: nomads can't be separated from their horses. It is logical that their horses should be with them from the beginning of their journey on afterlife. Then where did those horses come from? Well, if the petitioners arrive on Outlands first, then maybe the "spirits" I mentioned who are responsible from gathering them are the spirits of their horses.

This has been quite a long post. What are your thoughts?

Dagon's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2008-10-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

I think your spot on with all of that Evil.

Thinking of the horses, there may be another source that we can draw on for inspiration. While he is certainly a much later Turk, Babur of the Mughals certainly wished to embraced the culture of the Turkish steppes, even if he was part of one of their Muslim dynasties. The Baburnama may not be useful for the religious parts, but for lifestyle, I'm betting it would be. And oh look, it's on google books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HySzNwTc7jIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=bab...

Evil's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-11-12
Re: Turk/Mongol/Nomads in the Planes

Babur Shah is one of the most important Turkish leaders. I sadly haven't read Baburname (yet) but I will get to it. Some day.
So far we have the
1. Outlands as the place where the petitioners first appear and are then found by their horses (or whatever animal was native to their plane).
2. From there they leave for Erlik's Palace of Greensteel on Gray Waste. Those who are Marked by Erlik remain here until their punishment is served.
3. Next they pass through Carceri's 3rd layer. Those who betrayed/murdered their tribe/friends/etc are kept there.
4. The next stop should be Abyss. I honestly don't have anything from this point to Arborea.
5. Pandemonium
6. Limbo
7. Ysgard
10. Arborea's 3rd layer houses a massive burial site. Some remain here to reunite with their ancestors or other relatives which they may have lost (or it was him who arrived too early)
11. Beastlands has Mount Otuken, the realm of Yer-Su.
12. Elysium's 3rd layer Belierin hides the Lake of Milk, realm of Umay. Under the 4th layer, Thalasia, Ak-Ana is said to dwell.
13. Bytopia's 2nd Layer Shurrock: ergenekon (see below)
14. Mt. Celestia is the home of Ulgan; though only the greatest of all mortal Kams can reach his Golden Palace on 6th layer.
15. Arcadia: I will share some ideas about the remaining planes below.
16. Mechanus:
17.Acheron:
18. Baator.
19. Gehenna.

Anyone know of a fitting layer of Abyss?
Pandemonium and Ysgard have under ground layers. Pandemonium has only tunnels, but Ysgard has layers above ground, so it may have a surface somewhere, right? What if the petitioners move through the surface of these planes rather than through their caverns? Or perhaps they move inside pandemonium( the calusthropobic nature of the plane would scare the hell off of these petitioners), completely skip Limbo(I'll get to that later) and resurface on Ysgard. They then move on to Arborea's 3rd layer and so on through secret portals.
Limbo: I have nothing on Limbo. I will need to think and reread all limbo and turkish mythology related material before I can come up with something I guess. Advice please.
For Beastlands, I imagine Otuken as a Mountain that experiences day and night naturally. This means it travels between Beastlands layers, which would make it a useful place for travelers. It is surrounded by deserts on the one side, leading to the portal on Elysium. The other side of the mountain is surrounded with green forests, leading to the portal to Elysium. I will try to write a full planescape style explanation of the site later.
As for the site on Shurrock, the legend of Ergenekon comes to mind.
According to the legend, the Turks, after a great defeat that reduced their numbers to none, are guided by a wolf to a secret valley. It is surrounded by nearly impenetrable mountains, but hides plenty to grow, herd and hunt. They start living in this secret paradise and increase their numbers. When they become too many to remain in the valley, a wolf again appears. It shows that one of the mountains is made of iron, so it can be melted, and a path large enough to allow passage to the peoples who live there will appear. They manage to create a large pyre to melt the iron mountain and leave the valley. Finally they defeat their old enemies and reclaim their lands. Well, sounds like Shurrock for me.
For Mt. Celestia, since Oeanus does not touch Bytopia, they cannot reach Mt Celestia by sea. They foolow another mountain path and reach Mt celestia's foot, where those who dare climb the mountains, in the hope of coming as close to the Golden Palace as possible. Those who do not quickly leave for the passage to Arcadia.
If we follow the renovated Arcadia, I believe the tribes who reach here would form into fighting parties in the fashion we mentioned on that thread. Those who cannot handle the honest, equal fighting terms of the plane simply move on, while those who remain are exalted on to the next layer, where a great empire of these nomadic peoples was actually built by petitioners.
As I said, I don't have much for Mechanus. It doesn't seem like a major place in the pantheon, but I would think that the inventors and more numerous, astrologues of the people could reach here. I will need more resarch to see if there is a related Turkic deity which I can place on this plane. So far I envision a Wheel like gear on mechanus that actually stands perpendicular to the other gears...
By now the group is trickled down as most petitioners have left somewhere along the way, on a realm befitting their life. The migration moves from one cube to the next until they reach the portal to Baator, they fight with all manner of armies. Those who remain here form large fighting tribes, with the portal to Baator as their base.
Baator is where the migration effectively ends.Those who reach here find that by now, everyone they have deceived or tyrannized under the guise of following a code, a law, has left them; no one can protect them from the devils. They are enslaved to be turned into the lowest baatezu, though some who are seen to be more crafty are actually promoted faster. The rest are hunted down and killed. Virtually no petitioner can reach Gehenna.
This is the Great Nomadic Migration, something of a reverse modron march, in a nutshell.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Oriental Adventures: streamlining/adding to

Something I've considered for awhile (as I've done a lot of self-study into Japanese culture and mythology) is trying to streamline Oriental Adventures stuff into primary D&D and Planescape.
With the Inner Planes, this is difficult however, as there is no Elemental Plane of Wood.
Quasielemental Mineral could easily play the role of Elemental Metal, however.

There's a major problem with the accuracy of the split of the Core spells into the elements in regards to the Wu Jen and Shugenja.
The main one being, that (at least in contemporary Japanese culture) wind is considered part of the Wood Element due to its blowing of fallen leaves and cherry blossoms, and electricity is associated with metal due to the conductivity of the substance.
Though in actuality, the classical Chinese elements can easily (and in fact, often are in Japanese videogames/anime/manga) be streamlined into the four classical Western elements.
Metal (and electricity) are simply assigned to Earth and Wood with Air.

I've also been considering how to encorporate the Five Celestial Beasts into the Planescape setting. (The black turtle, red phoenix, white tiger, blue dragon, and golden dragon). They would probably play the role of demigods or quasi-deities; I'm guessing they'd serve the same purpose as the Water Lion and Water Dolphin (e.g. as servants to greater powers). Thing is, in D&D terms, I'm not sure if they'd be good or neutral-aligned.

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.