TSR/WotC gameworlds

The region was named after Ioun.
Bam. Where's my No-Prize?

Except that Ioun didn't exist before 4E.

As for the elimination of the Blood War, I remember reading somewhere that WotC's primary objectives with 4E was to
A. bring new blood to D&D rather than appease old fans (as the new blood is far more likely to buy the books than the old fans, many of who now have jobs and family to worry about)
and
B. Corner the casual P&P gamer market.

Unfortunately, the casual P&P gamers do not care for the Blood War OR the Great Wheel, because they find the idea of several different heavens and hells to be both too complex and pointless.
As I mentioned before, a LOT of the gamers out there don't care for the 1-3x D&D fluff because they prefer to simply have a single heaven, a single hell, a single "team" of celestials, and a single "team" of fiends; they find the Blood War and in-fighting between various celestial and fiendish groups to bee too complicated, confusing, and pointless (and MANY found the yugoloths, eladrins, guardinals, archons and ALL the elemental planes to be boring and pointless, sadly.
I know, it's blasphemy to us on this site, but that's how a lot of people feel. They find the simplistic and one-sided 4E cosmology and fluff to be far more refreshing, though they don't like it, either, but at least they don't have to do as much work on the cosmology and monster types to make the setting they want.)
The casual gamer thing is also the reason why they're trying to simplify EVERYTHING so damn much (and I think they've gone way too far with Essentials, though I fear that were it not for WotC's confusion over what they're aiming to create with Essentials and their insidious plan to make it so that you have to purchase all 10 books to have a complete set of game rules, the Essentials would likely be incredibly popular, because people just plain suck. THe fact that the Madden series is so damn popular is proof of this. We have idiots out there who buy the current year's release of the game which has NO DIFFERENCES WHATSOEVER ASIDE FROM AN UPDATED ATHLETE ROSTER, something which should damn well be downloadable on EA's site for free as a patch. Oh, and don't get me *and everyone else in this topic* started on the crap that passes as a best seller in music, these days. I mean, there are good, quality songs in every genre, so why is it that the year's best hit singles are almost invariably the Mcmusic of the genre? WHY?!?!?!?!? Moving on).
A major complaint new gamers have had since the 80's about both AD&D and 3x is that they're far too complicated (especially 3x), that there's far too much bookwork, that there's far too much work for the DM to craft a session (esp. in 1E and 2E). So apparently, one of the major appeals of 4E is that it's exponentially easier to DM, and that the powers system makes it easier for the players to keep track of how much and how long of each spell/what have you they have left for the day/etc. (though honestly, I don't have any complaints about the Powers system mechanics in 4E)

There's a couple of different explanations for ioun stones already. In the Forgotten Realms setting, they were named for the Netherese arcanist Congenio Ioun. I assume origin stories will always vary from world to world. Who can say what world is correct? Maybe none of them, or all of them.

There's enough worlds and pantheons in 1-3rd edition that Ioun might easily have existed somewhere without any of the published sources mentioning her. There's plenty of room for incalculably ancient towns, sites, and realms in the infinite planes of existence that no one's heard of before. She could even share Pelor's realm, as she does in 4e. The 4th edition story of Erathis trying to knit together the Outer Planes into a vast lattice and failing because of the Dawn War would probably not be true in the Planescape cosmology. That's okay. We can pick and choose our inspiration. It still might be a myth that her followers believe to be true.

Nope. Kossuth, Istishia, and the other elemental rulers are mentioned in the 4e Forgotten Realms campaign guide. They're unaligned.

Zaaman Rul and the others haven't been mentioned at all in 4e materials, but if they were I don't think they'd be evil. There are a number of examples of non-evil primordials.

The article first linking ioun stones to the Plane of Mineral (and introducing Crystalle) was in Dragon #174, so it was firmly in 2nd edition.

I certainly wouldn't turn Crystalle into a minion of Ioun, but visitors from the Prime worshiping Ioun might still have named the border with the Positive Energy Plane after their goddess.

It's a big, big multiverse, and there's plenty of room for undiscovered goddesses, even if they didn't always stay quiet and do nothing. "The knowledge wasn't available to the players back then" is exactly the way to look at it.

4th edition is clear that the Raven Queen has been a goddess for eons. She killed Nerull long, long ago. As with the Ioun thing, I wouldn't think of this as a retcon, but as a setting-specific truth. One thing to keep in mind is that the core setting is just one possible 4th edition setting. Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and Dark Sun are others, and the goddess Ioun isn't part of any of those things. Planescape is historically tied with the Forgotten Realms, though, so FR lore has priority over general 4e lore, as far as I'm concerned.

But Planescape is enormous, and deities like Ioun, Erathis, and the Raven Queen could well be part of it. They wouldn't be pivotal - the setting is too big for any single god to be pivotal, particularly not a single-sphere deity like Ioun or Erathis. But they could be there, and they could even find their way into planar nomenclature. Things like that happen. Amerigo Vespucci wasn't really that important an explorer, but he still gave his name to two continents.

Hyena, this is why I was saying that stuff earlier about Ioun. There's three things you can do when you have a canon contradiction like this. You can complain about it, you can ignore it, or you can resolve it. The first doesn't actually accomplish anything and would just tick off your GM (or, if you're the GM, would just confuse your players), and I know you hate to do the second, so why not do the third? Instead of talking about why it doesn't mesh with canon, make up an explanation that allows both to be true at once. Figure out how to take the contradiction and make it non-contradictory. That's what I do when I decide not to ignore a contradiction. And doing this more often than not makes things more interesting. You've said before how detail-oriented you are; well, this would allow you to keep even more details at once.

I mean, let's take your objection to its logical conclusion. By the logic you're presenting here, no game designer could ever introduce anyone of any import to an existing setting without a timejump, because there would be the question of "if they are this important then why did we never see them before?". And that is honestly kind of ridiculous.

So! We have these details about different sources for the name "Ioun". Instead of complaining that they introduced a new explanation yet again, why not just figure out a way that they can all be true? Then everyone's happy.

(Plus you know the 4e core setting isn't necessarily the same setting as the 3.5 core setting anyway, right?)

It really isn't. The 3.5 core setting was nominally Greyhawk. The 4e implied setting is the Forgotten Kingdoms (aka the Fallen Lands, or Points of Light, or the World), which has a different pantheon, cosmology, history, and creation myth. Greyhawk's world of Oerth has two moons; the 4e implied setting only has one. The two settings are as different as Eberron and Toril, which both incorporate elements of Planescape into their cosmologies.

They don't need to be. All they have in common is a name. Names aren't always logical. Naming a region of Mineral after her in no way requires that she actually have any authority over that region, let alone over Crystalle.

As far as I know, that only applies to erinyes, which 3.5 made separate from the baatezu hierarchy anyway.

The Plane Below introduced regions called the Pillars of Creation, nigh-infinite columns of elemental material that correspond to the old elemental, paraelemental, and quasielemental planes. They're not infinite, but they bring back a fraction of the old flavor of having regions of pure elemental material believed to form the foundation of the cosmos.

But Ioun wouldn't control any part of the Elemental Chaos. Her realm is Hestavar, which she shares with Pelor and Erathis (and which corresponds to Light's Blessing/the Fortress of the Sun in Elysium).

You're mistaken on the idea that primordials are necessarily evil. They're not. Examples of non-evil primordials include Akadi, Istishia, Kossuth, Grumbar, and Mual-Tar the Thunder Serpent. All are listed as "unaligned."

...I suppose that's possible, but that contradicts the 4E canon that the Ioun stones were created by Ioun.

Im not really a D&D player, but I agree with the OP - between the 80´ and mid 90´s was the Golden Era of purely creative setting creation and design, and not only in TSR/WotC sphere but in the whole hobbie as well..

..Glorantha, Talislanta, Skyrealms of Jorune, Empire of Petal Throne, Paranoia, Call of Cthluhu, Star Wars d6, Amber Diceless, Pendragon, Ars Magica, Mystara, Al-Qadim, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Warhammer FRPG, Yrth, Earthdawn, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk 2020, Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/Changeling/Wraith, Planescape, Ravenloft, Deadlands, Kult: Beyond the Veil, Battletech RPG, Legend of the Five Rings, Over the Edge, etc. and many many many others I dont remember now.

Part of me is thrilled at the prospect of such amazing settings like Ravenloft and Dark Sun getting facelifts for the next generation - I feel they have some wonderful stories that very well should be passed along..... but conversely, I'm almost afraid to see the hack job that will be done on them. If they're re-imagined in anything like the minimalist, dumbed down manner that the current cosmology is compared to the Great Wheel - I'd rather they not even bother - it will simply be an offense and an insult to my memory of these classic settings.

That's exactly how I feel, as well. I think, even from an objective "look at it like a separate game rather than a D&D incarnation" PoV, they've gone way overboard on "keep it simple" with the Essentials series. Not to mention all the other issues it has (such as its dissociative identity disorder)

Hello berks, cutters and planewalkers!

I hope you'll forgive a relatively young D&Der for planeshifting into this topic, but I just wanted to throw in my two coppers. My sole experiences with D&D happened a decade ago at the age of twelve, back in 3rd-3.5 ed. and sadly not one of the guys I played with ever mentioned a single campaign other than Forgotten Realms. In 2009 after an unplanned 9 1/2 year hiatus due to troubling developments in my personal life, I discovered the Planescape and Dark Sun settings/

I'm not ashamed to admit that I sat at my desk and bawled. So much beautiful creativity and good old fashioned writing hit me to the core as an authour. Ever since, my writng has never been the same and for the first time in my life I am now playing D&D........as a Dungeon Master. I would never have discovered these settinga if it weren't for the love and dedication of the fan community here on the forums to keep it alive. Writing is one of the few creative outlets that has been helping me cope with the death of my father six years ago and I consider this place a literal life-saver.

Here's a salute to all of you and may Planescape live forever!

Of course some Elemental creatures suffer from inconsistent descriptions too. Like for example the Elemental Archons (ignoring the fact they're using the name of the LG outsider race) are constantly described in a manner that would make the Unaligned/Lawful Neutral but are statted as CE and have a very bad description for why they are that alignment.

Exactly my feelings, Viking.

True, but come on, if you're going to hassle me about including remakes and derivative works, I have to point out that you included CoC, Battletech RPG and Star Wars d6. Even CoC; it was awesome, but not exactly an original setting.

(Plus I wouldn't say NWoD is a remake of OWoD, I'd say it's OWoD done right )

Also! If you like Stolze, I'd definitely recommend you check into Progenitor too. It's his new setting for ORE, my friend's been raving about it for the last week or two, and everything about it sounds really cool.

Oh, speaking of Stolze, that reminds me of something I noticed earlier that I was kind of curious about. We've done a lot of talking about what settings we like, how great the writing was for them, and so on, but hardly anyone's actually talked about the writers themselves. I mean, Planescape's cool, but it's cool in large part because of Zeb Cook, Wolfgang Baur, Colin McComb, and Monte Cook. I mean, DiTerlizzi and Dana Knutson are certainly to thank too, but the writing's just as important. So I'm curious; for the people here that do love Planescape, what do you think of their other works? Open Design Project for Baur (it might be open creation, but he's still been lead designer for most every product as far as I'm aware), Ptolus, DungeonADay, or the other stuff put out by Malhavoc for Monte Cook...well, I can't really name other major RP products spearheaded by McComb or Zeb, they sort of dropped out of the designer role after 2e. McComb's done some writing, but mostly modules, and it's weird to say "did you love Beyond the Vault of Souls" in this context. And I don't really know any RPG stuff at all Zeb's done outside computer gaming since 2e.

(And I know there were other writers, but...well, to be entirely honest, besides Bill Slavicsek, I don't really know anything they've done since Planescape at all. And I don't think Slavicsek was ever that involved in the setting, though I still love Harbinger House more than I should.)

But anyway, I'm rambling! Basically, I'm wondering if the love of the old settings talked about here translates into the newer stuff the guys that made them have done since those days? Do you guys keep following the writers involved on those old settings and do you still enjoy their work nowadays? Not just for Planescape either; I can't really talk about the designers in other settings since I don't know them as well (Greyhawk some, but not really any of the others), but did any of them make you follow the writers around to other projects as the settings faded? And if not, why not?

(And I know there were other writers, but...well, to be entirely honest, besides Bill Slavicsek, I don't really know anything they've done since Planescape at all. And I don't think Slavicsek was ever that involved in the setting, though I still love Harbinger House more than I should.)

I have a list of them somewhere in one of my files. Lemee see...
...
.....
.......
Sadly, I don't know where it went (my Windows Search function isn't working properly)

You can look the stuff up by typing the author's name into the search on this site, though:

http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=publisherlist

They don't have all the third party stuff, but they do have most of the major titles (and all of the WotC/TSR titles up to 2006.

Back on the subject, I've noticed that 0One has a series of maps called "Dungeon Under the Mountain". This is what they say about it:

Welcome to the Return of the Mammoth Dungeons.
The Dungeon Under The Mountain is a massive dungeon you can locate anywhere in your campaign world. Each level contains hundreds of rooms ready to be filled with the critters of your choice and with the devious traps you prefer.

Of course, we all know what dungeon it's REALLY supposed to be don't we now?

Yeah, I also love Birthright, and as a matter of fact it is still connected with the planes( it has, for a sample, the "core" demon lords and Moradin). It mostly feels disconnected because Of the Shadow World between Aebrynis and the Astral Plane.

To get back to the topic what about Urban Arcana, one of the D20 modern settings, shouldn't it also count as a d&d gameworld?

I have found that I tend to enjoy [insert game world] campaigns that turn into Planescape campaigns better than "normal" Planescape campaigns, in which the characters start in Sigil. There's a sense of transition, AND it's easier for inexperienced players to progressively get into the mood of planar adventuring. Also, I've found that it really helps if you have players take a look at lanescape: Torment beforehand.

As to the other point you made, we never really bothered with new cosmologies, there was simply no need ("if it ain't broke..."). So, to this day I happily declare my ignorance with regard to the 3E FR cosmology, or any other D&D cosmology for that matter (I did have a quick look at the 4E cosmology... it's a monumental disgrace). Come to think of it, we tend to utilize more 2E books that 3E books, even in the Realms (nothing can beat Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities).

I happily declare my ignorance with regard to the 3E FR cosmology
Basically, aside from the Abyss, the Elemental Planes, Ethereal, and I think Astral (and also 1 additional outer plane IIRC), the 3x FR cosmology consisted of something sorta like a "sephiroth" of sorts made up primarily of 2E divine realms such as Heliopolis and Nishrek. Aside from 2-3 "all inclusive" "planes" such as "House of Nature" and "The Fugue Plane", it was incredibly easy to place any new deities and planar monsters into the D&D or even 2E cosmology. The 3x FR cosmology also wasn't implemented in a way that made it the least bit difficult to completely ignore it and simply use the generic 3x D&D cosmology provided you had the Planescape books + Faiths & Avatars, Demihuman Deities, and Powers & Pantheons.

The faction shakeout seems to be the best for particular Planescape relevance. For one thing, it definitely happened in and around Sigil, rather than any of the other worlds on your list.

The Battle of Pesh was a universally-shaping event; it almost ranks up there with the Creation, and might be as difficult to pin down to a well-defined time, given that it probably took place across multiple worlds (including some of those where you already have events).

The fate of Vartus Timlin and the Expansionists, who seem to be regarded as having been a serious threat to Sigil, might also constitute a possibility.

For Sigil, I might go for the imprisonment of the unnamed wizard (later named Gifad, later Rowan Darkwood) in the Labyrinth Stone by the Lady of Pain. Watching the wizard begin the Sigil Spell that he thought might destroy the Lady, only to be imprisoned in a gem and cast into Pandemonium, might be suitably dramatic. This was 11,000-20,000 years ago.

Even more dramatic might be the activation of the Shadow-Sorcelled Key, which opened portals to the Lower Planes all over what was then called the Prime Ward, transforming it into the Lower Ward and causing armies of fiends to overrun the city. It's hinted that the key was activated by the immortal usually called the Nameless One, perhaps at the behest of Ravel Puzzlewell. Because the Incanterium, Sodkillers, and Expansionists were factions at the time, it must have been over 1,000 years ago.

The Great Upheaval around 630 years ago might also work. In Planescape in general, you might try the casting out of law and chaos from the yugoloth race with the Heart of Darkness, the creation of the slaadi Spawning Stone, the banishment of the titans to Carceri, Nemausus sliding into Mechanus, or the battle between Gith and Zerthimon.

For Oerth, I'd probably go with the Rain of Colorless Fire as the defining moment of the setting. Transparent flame rained down from the heavens as part of a curse by the Baklunish mage-priests, turning soil, vegetation, people, and even rocks to ash and transforming the mighty Suloise Empire into the caustic Sea of Dust. I'd have the PCs either appear in the Suel capital, which was magically protected but got buried in ash and dust, or with the twelve noble houses at the edge of the empire with the archmage Slerotin and his apprentices just as Slerotin was opening a 100-mile tunnel into the mountainside so that he could lead them to safety.

Other possible Oerth moments include the sinking of the Isles of Woe, the destruction of Sulm, Tzunk opening a portal to the City of Brass in the Burning Cliffs, the destruction of the Sinking Isle, the battle between Vecna and Kas, the last battle between Lum and Leuk-o, the imprisonment of Zuggtmoy at the Battle of Emridy Meadows, the casting of the Invoked Devastation, and the battle between Iggwilv, Tsojcanth, Iuz, and Graz'zt that ended with Tsojcanth bound in an Abyssal rift, Graz'zt banished, Iggwilv stripped of her powers, and Iuz transformed from a handsome apparent human to a creature split between a withered old man and a bloated demon form. The Battle of Pesh happened entirely on Oerth, though the law-chaos wars were waged across many worlds and planes. The Six from Shadow helped Tsojcanth bind Tharizdun on Oerth in his temple in the Yatils, though that was probably just an avatar. Tharizdun's true form was bound eons before, before the battle of Pesh, in the Ethereal Plane.

Vecna's defeat was only a thousand or so years ago, barely part of the modern historical period (though this history is brutally suppressed by the Silent Ones and the Knights of the Watch, partly in an attempt to cover up the complicity in Vecna's reign by one of the ancestral houses of Keoland). Here is a brief short story I wrote on their final battle a long time ago. Rereading it now, the major mistake I made was not realizing that Citadel Cavitius already existed then, and Kas was imprisoned in it rather than dying. The bit about Vecna "exploding" wasn't too unreasonable, though. 4th edition sources say that Vecna was at the verge of becoming a god and Kas sought to replace him.

Anyway, this thread at the Cafe de Nuit summarizes the relevant sources on the subject pretty well. The biggest problem the PCs will have in visiting that era is that Vecna will probably be aware of their intrusion and seek to send his followers through the same portal they're using into the modern era.

Aoskar is harder. We don't really know when it happened, and not everyone agrees that it happened in Sigil. If it just involved her attacking him from another plane remotely, there may not have been anything to see. I interpret "casting him out of the Cage" as meaning he was physically inside the City of Doors in an Age where the Lady still permitted this, but not everyone does.

While this is definitely non-canon (and I agree with VanWormer that I don't think there is much official details of the Aoskar/LoP conflict), here is an alternative take on the conflict that a few people found interesting /forum/alternative-history-aoskar

Here's one I wrote, as a tie-in to Malhavoc Press's Beyond Countless Doorways, tying Aoskar to the Nexus of that supplement.

On the Origin of the Nexus

In the beginning there was the Rose; her buds and thorns made up the whole of the multiverse. Her blossoms were the blossomings of worlds; her roots and stems transversed all boundaries.

From the Rose was born Aoskar, the Opener of Doors. The Rose was Aoskar's teacher, parent, and friend.

"Rose," said Aoskar sadly. "The time has come that I must leave. I must seek the new places you have told me about, that the inhabitants there may find their way to you."

"Yes," said the Rose. "It is time. Good journey, beloved Aoskar." Before he left, though, the Rose gave him a gift: a tiny, flowering vine that she named Folly.

During Aoskar's long wanderings, before he found his throne in Sigil, he sought an oracle to show him the path he must take. He consulted the Norns, and the Gray Sisters, and the Sibyls of Elysia, but none would say what the destiny of the god might be. "Your future is hidden from us," hissed Skuld. "It is guarded by Pain."

Shekinester, triple-goddess and World Serpent, divined something of Aoskar's fate, and harried him and his servants with her ha-naga proxies. "Is it war she wants?" mused Aoskar. "I can give it to her."

"I would be careful," cautioned Folly. "She is strong, and old. Better to attempt to bargain."

Aoskar followed Folly's advice. Calling in a favor from a being called the Wandering Architect, he had a sumptuous meeting-hall built. In it, he opened a number of doors that would allow him access to all the powers that he had within the Rose itself. Sending a two-headed hound to Shekinester's Court of Light, he invited the Three-Faced Queen to complete the hall with her own powers, and meet him on what would be neutral ground.

Intrigued, Shekinester did so. The meeting-hall became a place of seemingly endless maze-paths reminiscent of her own Loom of the Weaver. The goddess herself appeared within its heart. A young girl with reptilian features floated to the entrance and bade Aoskar walk in.

Venturing through the maze, half familiar and half new and strange, Aoskar felt his own doors change and twist. He felt as if the Rose was calling him somewhere, or warning him, but her words seemed jumbled, reduced to incomprehensible symbols that floated through the streets of an alien city, building and rebuilding its walls and doors. And in the center of it all, a circle of blades. Something about them filled him with terror.

"You should go back," said Folly. "The Rose wants you out of this terrible place."

"I can't," said Aoskar. "This is my destiny. If I leave now, I'll never understand it."

And so he passed the tests of the Empowerer, and passed into the presence of Shekinester herself.

"You have great courage," whispered the goddess, her human face shifting from young to old and in-between. "You will need it, where you are going."

"Is this why your minions have been harrying me?" Aoskar asked. "So you could warn me?"

"Not warn, merely test. I wondered what kind of god would go to dwell in the City of Doors. None have done so since the Phoenix's last death."

"Were your questions answered?"

"Almost," said Shekinester. "Before we are finished, you must face the Arching Flame."

As if struck by the same impulse, Aoskar and the serpent-goddess embraced, his limbs circling her coils, her coils circling his limbs. Aoskar's two faces looked into Shekinester's three faces: maiden, mother, crone. Then she was a pillar of light, and he and she were one.

After an infinity of union, the light faded, and Shekinester was once again a three-faced naga. Aoskar was once again a dual-faced man.

"I feel cleansed, healed," said Aoskar. "I wish we could merge forever."

The Empowerer laughed; the Preserver smiled gently; the Weaver sneered. "We each have our destinies to fulfill," they said. "But this place we have made will remain. As will one other."

The girl who had met Aoskar at the first door reappeared. "Farewell, Father," she told him.

"A child has been birthed from our unity," Shekinester explained. "Dislocated slightly in the warp and weft of history. Meet Aoska-Shek, for the second time."

Aoskar awkwardly patted his daughter's head. Something about her made him uncomfortable; probably it was the way her feet never touched the ground.

He turned to look at Shekinester, but she was already gone. Shrugging, he left the Nexus they had made and went to meet his destiny.

Ha, everyone who isn't familiar with Beyond Countless Doorways seems to interpret Aoska-Shek as the Lady of Pain, which is logical given the context and perfectly fine if that interpretation interests you. My intention was that she's actually a completely separate being: she takes the place of the character Niveral-Sca, daughter of Niveral, Lord of Secrets, and Sisansca, Sister to Serpents (and guardian of the Nexus). The story was basically just my way of tying the character more closely to the Planescape mythos with deities that I thought were close approximations (and more interesting, I think, than Monte Cook's deities Niveral and Sisansca).

Shekinester initiates Aoskar into his destiny, destroys him, and preserves the multiverse as it was before he arrived from his alien cosmology of roses. And from their brief union is born a quasi-divine being with power over the portals of her own strange realm. It would be interesting if this was the Lady of Pain, or if people only thought it might be. But by my intention, it isn't.