Tradegate and selling souls

16 posts / 0 new
Last post
Surreal Personae's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-07-08
Tradegate and selling souls

So I'm reviewing some material on Tradegate and the Planar's Primer to the Outlands mentions the selling of souls to the town. I was wondering, what's up with that? Is that the evil that keeps the town from merging with Bytopia? Any ideas?

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

If you sold your soul to Tradegate, I imagine you'd be bound there as a petitioner after your death, to work in the bazaar for eternity. This doesn't seem any more evil than choosing a patron deity and having to work in that god's realm. Picking an afterlife isn't morally equivalent to slavery.

If you sell your soul to fiends, you're likely to be tortured, devoured, or turned into a fiend yourself. All of these things are evil.

If you sell your soul to something that's not evil, though, you're just determining your hereafter. Considering a petitioner's typical options, it's better than many, and no worse than most.

Palomides's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2010-06-26
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

I'm not sure I completely agree with VanWormer.
While one can't argue that such a fate is preferable to many that await individuals on the Great Wheel, there is an underlying belief that
freedom = good
loss of freedom = not good
Even if it is slavery to a benevolent master, there is a taint to the idea of slavery. In most minds, freedom is a gift that was given to us and it has an aspect of sin to throw it away. Even if the choices one makes of a free will lead to a far worse scenario or if one's circumstances result in one not really having a choice, we like to entertain the idea that we are masters of our fates and that that should be cherished. A lack of freedom is a fate only deserving of animals (hence the many arrogant, ignorant rationalizations found in the darker chapters of history).
Now if it were a case of indentured servitude where one works for a set period of time or towards a set goal, then it is more like a job (albeit, one that you're not free to quit). This would have a lesser taint to the concept
.
Back to the original thread, I don't have that resource so I don't know the context of these "sales".
Are the petitioners selling they souls to individual traders in the town? Or to the entity of the town itself?
What is the purpose of these transactions? Are the petitioners used as slaves? As public workers?
The only thing I found on this site (the only thing I found after a exhausting 20 seconds of looking) was a line
"It’s even rumored that a body can barter away his afterlife in Tradegate if he doesn’t have anything else to trade."
To me this sounds like a person is able to barter his soul solely for some money to gain material possessions. Even if this sale is just indentured servitude (which I would strongly suggest as flat-out slavery sounds too evil for a Bytopian gatetown - IMHO), bartering your freedom for baubles seems to have a taint of materialistic greed and evil (or at very least rampant foolishness)
Personally, I think this makes sense regarding your original premise. I could see some diabolical merchant(s) setting up shop amongst the honest vendors (and most of the time he would engage in honest trade); but when a rube walked into town, he would try to dazzle him with baubles or with a slick sales pitch.
.
Whether you use the concept of enslavement or indentured servitude, it allows for some role-playing opportunities. Imagine the PCs visiting Tradegate and running into such a person who had been sent ot the market on an errand. He pleads with the PCs to either smuggle him out of town (an Underground Railroad scenario) or to help him accomplish the task that was the condition of his indentured servitude.
Sure he signed the contract willingly and his "master" isn't the worst person in the multiverse; but, he has grown weary of his years of servitude and wants to go on to his final reward

Palomides's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2010-06-26
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

ripvanwormer wrote:
This doesn't seem any more evil than choosing a patron deity and having to work in that god's realm. Picking an afterlife isn't morally equivalent to slavery.

I thought of a tangent based on this comment.
This reflects the often conflicting relationship between mortals and the divine.
As I mentioned above, enslavement of one mortal by another is always tainted with sinister connotations (although there are numerous rationalizations by the ones in charge)
However, many religions include the idea of servitude to the divine. While we have free will, the ideal is that we are subservient to the will of our divine masters.
Case in point, if suicide were merely a choice of exerting your free will, then while it would still be tragic, it would not have a moral stigma. However because those with religious conviction feel that the person is throwing away a gift given from the divine, it is considered a betrayal and a sin by most religions.
[Please note: I am NOT trying to justify suicide]
.
My point is that a mortal's relationship to his deity is bound by a different set of rules than a mortal's realtionship to another mortal (or at least another non-divine being)

Jem
Jem's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

ripvanwormer wrote:
If you sold your soul to Tradegate, I imagine you'd be bound there as a petitioner after your death, to work in the bazaar for eternity. This doesn't seem any more evil than choosing a patron deity and having to work in that god's realm.

Tradegate being a city of trades, though, I smell one possibly severe problem with this: namely, that you're also agreeing to the possibility of being sold off later, to an unpredictable god or master. And I could see the Merkhants being big buyers, with resale to fiends at reliable profit. It's probably not often that a fiend gets their hands on a verifiably neutral or better soul.

Tradegate isn't on Bytopia, after all. It's a gate-town, and the Outlands will probably evaluate all comers fairly. So, in a lawful, contractually-organized way, you're really playing dice with your ultimate fate.

Good gods might be willing to purchase a soul free, if the soul in question is worth it (makes themselves worth it); and there is the very interesting possibility of what might happen if the petitioner bought out his contract. Godhood? Or maybe this is the standard ending ritual that concludes in merging with the plane?

Palomides's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2010-06-26
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

Jem wrote:
Tradegate being a city of trades, though, I smell one possibly severe problem with this: namely, that you're also agreeing to the possibility of being sold off later, to an unpredictable god or master. And I could see the Merkhants being big buyers, with resale to fiends at reliable profit. It's probably not often that a fiend gets their hands on a verifiably neutral or better soul.
Excellent point, I should have though of this. [BTW, this is the opening concept of the classic anti-slavery novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin" where the "good" master sells Tom to an increasingly evil series of slave owners (The original isn't all that good either as instead of keeping Tom with the promise of his eventual freedom, he decided that he couldn't give up his fine wines and cigars so he makes the sale)]

Jem wrote:
Good gods might be willing to purchase a soul free, if the soul in question is worth it
I wonder if this is true. If so, then the forces of evil could end up getting a LOT of leverage. What could an evil entity demand in exchange? Would it be worth it? It seems to me that with rare exceptions (e.g. reclaiming a paladin who has noblely taken the place of someone who foolishly agreed to the barter), the forces of good wouldn't trade. They would either

-Leave the person to the fate to which he foolishly agreed
-LG types might help the person meet the conditions of the contract, assuming the end goal wasn't too large a boon to evil (e.g. a neutral goal might be to clean the Augean stables)
-NG or CG agents might try a covert raid to sneak him out and hide him

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

Palomides wrote:
While one can't argue that such a fate is preferable to many that await individuals on the Great Wheel, there is an underlying belief that freedom = good loss of freedom = not good

This isn't true. Well, at any rate, it's only completely true if you're chaotic good. Well... actually, it's not exactly true even then.

For chaotic good types, individual freedom (which is to say, liberty) is absolutely an essential part of good. Something is good only insofar as it allows you to be free to find your own bliss, with the caveat that you can't be infringing on the freedom of others (if you could be free to infringe on the rights of others, you'd be chaotic neutral or evil).

If you're lawful good, freedom isn't an essential part of good at all. Being lawful means you have to put the good of society ahead of your own personal desires. Your right to personal expression ends where society's right to be harmonious and conflict-free begins. There are, of course, degrees of this. Not every lawful good type is Hardhead. In Arcadia, social order is more important than kindness, altruism, and mercy (which is to say, Good). In Celestia, law and good are equally important, but freedom isn't an essential part of the equation. If you're born into a lower social caste and unable to move out of it, this is okay, as long as you're treated with kindness and dignity. For a chaotic good type, lack of social mobility is intolerable, no matter how good and stable the society might be. You have the right to some personal expression, even in Mechanus (though less in Mechanus than anywhere else), but there's nothing inherently good about it.

From the point of view of an "extreme" lawful good type (a throne archon, for example), a strong desire for individual liberty isn't just irrelevant, it's sinful. Being chaotic good is, from the enlightened, objective point of view of the celestial hierarchs, just as wrong as being lawful evil. An asura is just as fallen from the cosmic ideal as a baatezu. Archons have a word for people who desire liberty as the highest good. Several words in fact.

Anarchists.
Rebels.
Deviants.
Selfish.
Hedonists.

And if that mindset is hard to get into or appreciate... believe me, it exists. Browse the more socially conservative regions of the internet, and see what they say about people who think everyone should be able to do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody. Then try to put yourself into their heads for a moment, and accept, for the sake of argument, that these people aren't "evil" - that they're as benevolent as the social libertarians in their way (even if you think they're wrong). They simply fall more toward the lawful end of the law-chaos spectrum than you do. And then remember that millennia-old personifications of cosmic order are far more conservative than anyone on the Internet. No matter how benevolent they are.

And this isn't just about sex, or nonstandard sex practices. From the lawful vantage point, everyone has a place in society, and society functions because people don't, as a whole, behave as if they know better than millennia of tradition. They get married, they have kids, they do the same job their parents did, they take care of their parents in their old age, and the cycle repeats. What's the alternative? Social instability. Unemployment. Elderly people with no support. Children with no parents. Not everyone can be a king, not everyone can be a merchant or fine artist or novelist, and not everyone can be rich. Someone has to take out the garbage, and society functions best if people don't spend their time fighting over the best jobs. Instead, the goal of those of good alignment should be to make life for the poorer classes as happy as possible, rather than to lie to them and tell them they can be something they can't.

And yes, in that situation, you can have slavery, or a system that might as well be slavery (serfdom, indentured servants, etc... stuff that even the most benevolent medieval fantasy nations will likely have), even if you're lawful good.

Neutral good means seeing social good and individual freedom as approximately equally desirable, and attempting to, more or less, balance the two.

Chaotic people object strenuously. Sure, not everyone can be rich, but everyone has a right to try.

Except, as I suggested before, petitioners aren't really free. A chaotic good deity will encourage the souls under her care to seek out their dreams as best they can... but their souls still belong to their deity. That's a constant no matter what the god's alignment. And if they're not bound to a specific deity, they're bound to a plane. And is being bound to a plane really more morally abhorrent than being bound to a gate-town?

And there are other weird things in Planescape, like the city of Polykeptolon in Arborea (see Planes of Chaos, which remains in Arborea despite being supported primarily by slave labor so that the philosophers who rule the city don't have any manual labor distracting them from their contemplation. Maybe it's the will of the Greek pantheon that keeps it there.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

Jem wrote:
Tradegate being a city of trades, though, I smell one possibly severe problem with this: namely, that you're also agreeing to the possibility of being sold off later, to an unpredictable god or master.

No. You aren't agreeing to that possibility. In fact, it's impossible.

A Player's Primer to the Outlands is very clear that Tradegate (or, at least, its natives) doesn't permit slavery.

Someone who sells their afterlife to the town isn't selling their soul to a mortal who lives in Tradegate. They're selling their soul to the town itself.

That is, they've made the choice to have their soul live in Tradegate forever after they're dead. Once there, you can do anything you want that the town allows. You aren't an indentured servant to the town's mayor or to the Master Trader. You can start a business there, get a job with someone else, or just spend your time trying to make sure the town doesn't slide into Bytopia or become so neutral that it loses its status as the home of Bytopia's gate. You become a citizen of Tradegate, forever.

It might be possible to buy your soul back, if you earn enough of something else the town desires. I would argue that it's not possible to buy someone else's soul from the town, though - that's too much like slavery.

If you make the choice to have your soul live with Zeus forever after you're dead, are you agreeing to the possibility that Zeus might decide you to give you as a gift to Thor? I'd say no, you're not - and I'd argue that it isn't possible for a god to use their petitioners that way. A petitioner's made the choice to spend eternity with their god; it isn't the god's choice (and despite what I said earlier, it might be possible for a petitioner to choose a new god even after they're dead. Most petitioners don't seem to even consider this, since their mortal desires have been lost with their mortal bodies and they've been recreated to be more perfect servants who seek only ultimate union with their patron... but I wouldn't say it's impossible for something to happen that might change a petitioner's mind).

Now, a baatezu could sell a soul to the yugoloths, or to a lich, or anywhere else, because baatezu have no problem with slavery, and believe that there should be no moral limits on what a master can do with his property. But Tradegate wouldn't do that.

If you make the choice to have your soul dwell forever in Elysium, are you agreeing to the possibility that Elysium might decide to trade you to Pandemonium? Of course not. That doesn't even make sense. A gate-town is, as I see it, essentially an outer plane in miniature, and they function pretty much as planes or planar layers do. They may or may not have some vast sentience, but they're not going to willingly give their souls away.

Palomides's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2010-06-26
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

I think this avoids my second argument (which might not have been posted during the time you wrote this up), the relationship of a person enslaved to another person is a different set of rules than a person obedient to a divine entity or concept.
What is happening in Tradegate (as I read it), is definitely the former.
.
With regards to worldly religious organizations laying down edicts of "good" behavior based on what they believe is divine command, this can lead to some of the greatest evils every seen.
.
Sure everyone in a lawful society gives up some freedoms for the benefits of the social contract; but I think this is a HUGE cry from the concept of "traditional" slavery. Giving up the freedom to take whatever thing you see that is lying around (or the reverse of forgoing private possessions in a communal society) is a rule that has to be obeyed and limits freedom but it's not the same as being enslaved

I acknowledge that throughout history there have been many types of slavery that were not as blatently evil as the slavery that afflicted captives brought to the New World.
The serfdom of medieval Europe or the patron system of ancient Rome would qualify as slavery; but they were considered socially acceptable and "good" for the social order. But often these people lived with the promise that in the afterlife, they would be rewarded in a land of plenty with more freedom (if manna falls from the sky, there is no need for the former serf to farm the land).

While these social systems might exist in Arcadia, I never saw them existing in any of the other Upper Planes. I see that at that point, one is defined (in the lawful side) by one's devotion and servitude to one's god; not to the wills of other individuals.
Sure the devas might enforce some tough rules and law down commands that MUST be obeyed but that is only because they receive those commands directly from the god in question.
This differs from the rules that MUST be obeyed based on mortal members of a church, society or organization thinking that they undeniably understand what God wants and forcing people to obey.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

Palomides wrote:
Back to the original thread, I don't have that resource so I don't know the context of these "sales". Are the petitioners selling they souls to individual traders in the town? Or to the entity of the town itself?

To make things completely clear, here's the exact quote from A Player's Primer to the Outlands in its entirety:

"The cutters in Tradegate don’t hand out anything for free, not even information. But some say that here a body can literally sell her afterlife to the town, giving up all chance of resurrection for a pile of Tradegate coins."

So yes, I'd say they're selling it to the entity of the town itself. The only thing the source specifically says they're selling is their chance of being resurrected, but I assume it means their petitioners remain in the town. It's conceivable that they don't - the town might not be storing up souls so much as the ability to be resurrected. The souls might travel to wherever they would otherwise be expected to go, stripped of whatever part allows them to be called back. And the town might use that intangible "returnability" for other purposes.

The same source says:

"Fact is, natives pretty much decide for themselves what’s evil, and they don’t put up with slavery, thievery, senseless killing, or plenty of other things an average basher’s likely to do."

Quote:
What is the purpose of these transactions? Are the petitioners used as slaves? As public workers?

We don't know, but I wouldn't assume either is the case. What a petitioner contributes is belief. This belief keeps the town stable and potent; enough belief, and the town might eventually evolve into a god, or a new outer plane in its own right. They do so merely by existing within the town boundaries.

ripvanwormer's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

Palomides wrote:
Sure the devas might enforce some tough rules and law down commands that MUST be obeyed but that is only because they receive those commands directly from the god in question. This differs from the rules that MUST be obeyed based on mortal members of a church, society or organization thinking that they undeniably understand what God wants and forcing people to obey.

I don't think we really disagree with one another very much, if at all. There's certainly a difference between believing a slave is property with no rights and believing they're human beings (or whatever species) with the same rights to dignity and compassion as everyone else... but without the ability to legally quit their job.

Different societies, and different gods, will definitely have different specific laws that they expect people to obey. The lawful mindset means giving due deference to those social norms, but doesn't mean there are any universal set of commandments that all lawful good people must follow.

Palomides's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2010-06-26
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

If the people are selling their "afterlives" to the town, that alters things. Most of my comments were based on the assumption that the trade was given to an individual.
[And back to the original thread, I would still have a few evil people in town. They can prey on the clueless that have heard that the town is buying, but end up signing contracts that give the soul to the dealer - that could be the evil undercurrent in town that was originally suggested]

If "afterlives" are given to the town, that does bolster the argument that this is a trade in keeping with the Social Contract of lawful society wherein we give up some freedoms to maintain the most good for the most people.
[Although it still seems like it would fit an Arcadia gatetown better - IMO]

Jem
Jem's picture
Offline
Factor
Joined: 2006-05-10
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

That's a fair point regarding slavery. Hence I wonder if the town would in fact put people to work afterward.

What if they're not selling their soul... they're selling their afterlife? Do not become petitioner, do not go to godly domain, go directly to Tradegate and merge with the town, augmenting its planar presence? That way the town actually gets something out of the deal -- conceptual oomph, like any other plane that merges a petitioner -- and it would explain why the soul can't be resurrected afterward.

It would be interesting to come across, or play, a person like that, with fiends or just circumstances constantly tempting them to do evil. What do you care? Your afterlife is guaranteed. (The response being that Tradegate is good-tinted neutral, so your existence will be best retained if you're good-tinted neutral at time of death, but that's not philosophically obvious necessarily. Of course, there's also the simple desire not to be a nasty person.) Godsmen would probably be horrified; Athar might find it a respectable choice.

Guvners would point out that there's a loophole: you can become a god and not need your afterlife anyway. ^_^

Archdukechocula's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2008-02-24
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

It would make sense that selling your afterlife to tradegate ultimately boosts its signature on the planes. After all, what would better embody the idea of tradegate then converting your very essence into a material transaction? I think the act itself makes tradegate stronger, because it shows such a strong alignment with the very thing tradegate represents.

Palomides's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2010-06-26
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

But would such a "strengthening" of Tradegate make it MORE likely or LESS likely to shift in Bytopia?
I would think less, as it isn't really a form of hard work to sell something you've just been carrying around.
On the other hand, once one's "afterlife" is the property of the town, is there a lot of unavoidable heavy labor involved?
How much of one's individuality remains after one become part of the town?

If we pursue the idea that the merger process might lead to the deificaiton of Tradgate, what would his portfolio be? Shrewd trade?
If the new god is an amalgamation of various souls (who would have different, albeit similar personalities), would this new power be slightly eccentric or quirky? (Actually, that might be a good fit with the gnomic pantheon.)

Surreal Personae's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2005-07-08
Re: Tradegate and selling souls

For Tradegate, I might go with all of the following to various degrees: commerce, ingenuity, industriousness, savyness, and social exchange (perhaps with a more cynical "I scratch your back, you scratch my back" subtext). Perhaps there would also be something of a dualistic or paradoxical combination of servitude and personal achievement. Different branches of the same religious organization to the town, should it ever ascend to godhood, might speak about different aspects.

It's hard to say whether the selling of afterlives would draw it to or away from Bytopia. In the absence of other possible subversions of the Tradegate/Bytopian culture (like how Automata has the Council of Anarchy), I'd said it would draw it away from Bytopia. The Tradegate mimir recording (on the audio CD) suggests that individual citizens have a stake in the sale of afterlives/souls. While all-out slavery may be frowned upon, indentured servitude has not always been called by that label. So it may be possible that they view this afterlife indentured servitude as voluntary and thus not really slavery. After all, nobody’s forcing a body to commit his afterlife. However, with the town being on Bytopia’s doorstep, so to speak, I’d imagine most such traders would be very careful not to let the traded souls fall into the wrong hands. Perhaps there would be a law against letting the souls or contracts leave the town?

Of course, this doesn’t mean there couldn’t be a black market in the souls or their contracts, even if the souls were supposed to be pledged solely to the town itself. Uncaged: Faces of Sigil suggests that the Planar Trade Consortium has a presence there. If a few of its shadier members pretended to be town representatives to manipulate some berks into signing away their souls, that could had darker element to an otherwise (relatively more) benign practice.

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.