TO KILL A LADY OF PAIN

Error: The Lady of Pain does not roll dice. Otherwise somebody would have tried Implosion on her.

'Corse using mind switch on the Lady would just take over the highest ratatosk within her suit. The second one would turn its Wand of Flay on 'you' and that would be the end of things.

Might look a bit strange to any onlookers though......

Lorft

Heres a foolproof plan to deal with the Lady.

1. Saw your left hand off at the wrist with a rusty spoon.
2. Bleed to death.

This is infinitely less painful then any other methode of dealing with the Lady, and it has the added benifit of allowing you to have an afterlife, rather than being compleatly and utterly anihilated.

Everyone needs to shut up and stop putting words in my mouth, I did not say it was impossible and for one i definetely did not join your side, the only thing I did was withdraw from the challenge :eatYou: :queEs: :troll: for a month

uh.... wow, this debate is still going about? I thuaght it had stopped... I guess not- well in any case, there is always a reason for something- her Serenity isn't just there to be there, she is there for a reason, as are all things

not really there's always pain wherever you go- wether you'd like to think so or not... as for the destruction of Sigil- well that I'm pretty sure could be done- but only if the Lady didn't exist- but in this case she always will... so Sigil can't truely be destroyed... although I'm still learning about Sigil- so I can't say too much

Was that the time your thread on the Wizards boards got mazed?

well if you were level 36, then yeah, becuase by then your skill ranks would be so high that nothing really could keep you from doing certian actions- or those actions would propose little challenge... and yeah there may be a way to kill the lady- but it will never happen nomatter what your level is...

*sighs* I kinda feel bad for the Lady- there's always someone plotting against her... when will they learn?

I'm not gunna get flayed for saying I feel sorry for the lady am I *shifty eyes*???

uh, the post about being L36 isn't Fidrikon's... we have to share a com at his house and I forgot to sign out of his name >.<

I am relatively new to the whole planescape thing but the first thing that I learned was that you should never piss of the Lady and if you do you are incredibly stupid and should be beaten with a large stick untill you are knock out.

And about the idea of imagineing the Lady out of existance I dont think that it would really work b/c she could just flay you right where you stand and I dont that she would let any one in to Sigil that could ever even gain enough power to even clip off one of her finger nails, so to speak

I think that what it boils down to, in the end, is what kind of campaign your DM wants to create. If the DM wants to allow the Lady of Pain to be killed, then there will be a way. If the DM does not, then there is no way you could win.

The Lady of Pain to my knowledge (which is incomplete) is considered by more or less every major Planescape fan to be one of the integral parts of the setting. By everything I've heard (wish I had the actual Planescape campaign setting books), the Lady of Pain is unkillable unless the DM allows it.

Also, I suspect that this is the wrong forum for a discussion on how to kill Her Serenity, if only because there seems to be almost no one willing to support such an endevor.

I am indifferent to the argument. I think that a campaign involving the actual demise of the ruler of Sigil could be very interesting. Of course, the event would be Plane-shattering, but it could still be fun.

Well, here's my personal theories on how one can remove her(I really doubt anything can destroy her completely..
Theory 1:Get the other two to help you. Easy as that. No matter how powerful she is, 2,00000000000000~1>1.
Theory 2: Just destroy her, as you're essentially the same.
Theory 3: Ask her if you could take over. Promise you'll strive to be just like her.
(Assumed) Theory 4: It's assumed that Sigil is on the outer planes. Know that you will beat her. You, logically, will.

There's meaning to the madness, but where?

If you *really* want to kill Her Dread Mayesty, I suppose your best bet would be the Dabus.
I mean... Nobody knows the Dark or the Lady, but she is pretty pissed off when you damage them, no? And she seems not to be too much interested about keeping order in the city, so it could be that killing the Dabus would weaken her somewhat.
So, in order to attempt to kill the Ladyc you should:

1) Study the Dabus! Learn where they go the night, what they are, and such. You could try to bribe Fell, but beware - he could betray you.

2) Hire a lot of assassins, and some really powerful archmage, and a lot of stupid but huge warriors for cannon-fodder, and maybe some really powerful weapon of mass destruction - and do all of this so without the Lady taking notice. Obviously, the details are left to you.

3) Let's start the fireworks! Kill as Dabus as you can, then go after the Lady and hope she is weakened and not only extremely unhappy.

But are you really really really sure you want to do that? Yeah, she is quite creepy and dangerous-looking, but as far as I know she never did any harm to Sigil or to berks sane enough not to get in her way.

Imagine a post-Lady scenario:
- The Tanarri and the Baatezu making again Sigil one of their favourite battlefields;
- A lot of powers (and paladins, and priests) rushing into Sigil in order to get as many souls as possible;
- The Archons trying to move Sigil on top of Mount Celestia;
- The 'loths bribing and cheating as usual, only a *lot* more, maybe trying as well to build another of their Towers in the Lady's Ward;
- Some Slaadi Hunting Party showing up just for the fun of it...
- And, in general, all the worst troublemakers of the multiverse rushing to Sigil for one reason or another.

I am not an Hardhead myself, but such a vision would make a Kaosisect cringe with horror because of too much chaos. So don't even think about it, or I myself will warn the Lady.
And now, please get out of Sigil or I'll have to kill you.
Got it, berk?

(Seriously: would I try to kill the Lady, I would use the method above descripted. It's a bit chancy, but a *lot* less than going after her with a sharp blade or some book of cantrips.
It should be an interesting campaign, but would you succeed I think the results would not
be very nice - the Lady is a bit like the Patrician of Ankh-Morphok: nobody really *likes* her, but any other who could take her place would be a lot worse).

2nd post... Horray!

No offence taken; I know it's impossible, and I'm certainly not barmy enough to actually try something against Her Dread Mayesty.

But it seems to me that this thread has become a purely theoretical discussion, most like "what if the Blood War stopped" or "what if Mount Celestia slipped into Limbo", and I was brainstorming without any reality (planescapewise) hook.

lol wow we actually have some ways that might work- although they won't work if the DM won't let em ( I sure the hells I wouldn't)... someone should actually create stats for her and post it (already had an idea- it would make her unbeatable though :twisted: )

Yeah I know- everything has some sort of loophole, and I know the stats can't be official- but it would be interesting to see lol, I was actually suprised to see for once ideas that would actually might work- everything that the people that started the thread (one is my brother and the other practically lives with us) never really came up wit any way that didn't have some sort of loophole or way to be- "brought down" like using the psionic item annulis(?) to destroy all of her followers- she isn't psionic for one and two she doesn't have any worshippers, she kills them all, they thuaght that by killing her worshippers it would (atleast one of them did) destroy her, like a god... she's not a god, she's an avatar lol but yeah I'm just talking lol, gunna go

Only one gripe there...

As amusing as most of this has been, I think the largest most important part of The Lady isn't so much Her power, dire though it may be. It's not like the creative people who run PS couldn't think up another reason for Sigil not to be run by fiends, gods, or mercane. Her point (oooh, witness the puns) isn't to make the characters feel weak or unimportant, but to impress upon those who play the dichotomy in PS. I mean when a character is walking through Baator, s/he's not just walking through a (for example) swampy plain, he's walking through the sentient abstraction of Damnation. Then again, it really is just a plain. When s/he's having a drink in bar with a Guardinial s/he might just be discussing the philosophy of Categorical Imperative with the physical embodiment of that point of view. Then again, you can kill that guardinial, or run out to Ellysium and see where those thoughts are born and die. It puts you in the middle of everything that it means to be a thinking or morally capable individual, and then flips it on your head.

In a city where belief is everything, where pulling the mob to your opinion will change worlds, the only One with any concrete power is the One with belief's that are completely unknown, maybe even non-existent. Maybe She's the dream that's dreaming us, or maybe contact with Her is just the pinprick our characters need to wake up? The answer to that is just as vital, important, unanswerable, and meaningless as most other questions in PS, and that's what makes it unique, what you don't know is more important then what you do know. Maybe that's not even what the original designers intentioned, but it's how PS has come to be for myself & my group of players.

All right I realize I've overwritten this, so I'm just going to conclude on this point. It's easy to explain Her away as the (pardon the term) godhead of PS, an answer to whatever setting problem the DM might have, if so then that's using Her incorrectly.

She isn't an answer, She's a question, and the question is more important anyway.
-----------------------------

So in theory you want to see The Lady dead in your game, killed by your character even? Fine, just be sure you use Her correctly.

*Realizes he's preaching to the Choir, promptly hops off his soap-box and walks away, whistiling some old dixie tune.*

But it's not implied. Trolan from "The Harbringer House" adventure...

WARNING, SPOILER!

...hasn't been even mazed, even when he formed a cult worshipping the Lady. It could be found strange because he did try to court Her in the past. It didn't, however, stop Her from flaying dozens of other cultists.

Mazing the factols was also a strange decision, considering the fact it didn't stop, but even helped the Faction War to outbreak. Some of them were not dangerous (like Terrance, Ambar Vergrove, or poor Sruce). And why Rowan Darkwood was the last, who went to the Mazes? Is event the point in asking? Her Serenity won't answer. Who said Her decisions have to make sence?

I think I've found a loophole...

GREATER EXALTATION OF PAIN
Epic Spell
Spellcraft DC: 63
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 300 ft.
Target: One outsider
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 567,000 gp; 12 days; 22,680 XP. Seed: Transform (DC 21). Factors: change outsider to setting mechanic (+5 DC), transform into specific likeness (+25 DC), grant three supernatural abilities (+10 DC x3), increase casting time to 10 minutes (-18 DC).

With this spell, you change one outsider into an exact duplicate of the Lady of Pain. (We're picking on outsiders here because they're common as dirt on the Outer Planes; feel free to change the target's type to Humanoid, Plant, or whatever you like when researching the spell.) The target can apply spell resistance against the spell and gets a Fortitude save, but if you have the brains of a bag of nails you're casting this on some unfortunate chump with no SR and a Fort save of about +2, so we'll just ignore those effects and assume the spell works. Since the Lady of Pain is a setting mechanic and doesn't need Hit Dice, this spell will work on any outsider, even something as weak as a 1/2 HD fiendish kobold.

The transformed creature is an exact duplicate of the Lady of Pain, sharing all natural abilities, physical abilities and mental abilities (including personality and memories). It also has all extraordinary abilities of the Lady of Pain, as well as the supernatural abilities of Flay, Maze, and "Did I say you could come in here?" *smack*.

Since the transformed creature is an exact likeness of the Lady, with identical memories, personality and motivations, it will immediately travel to Sigil in order to assert dominion there. Upon encountering the true Lady, it will immediately assume that it is the original and the other Lady is an impostor; the true Lady will, naturally, assume the same thing. Both Ladies will act simultaneously (due to both having Initiative scores of Better Than Yours) and will Flay each other dead. (There is a slight chance that your DM will decide that two combatants with Initiative scores of Better Than Yours facing off will cause an infinite recursive loop. If this happens, try to convince your DM that the two combatants simply freeze in a never-ending staredown, rather than crashing the game universe.)

Note that as a side benefit of developing this spell, you can decide at a later date to bring the Lady back, if you so choose. Simply find another valid target for this spell and cast it again to create a new Lady, unchallenged in the universe.

And for those who don't want the Lady dead, but are just a bit envious of her abilities...

LESSER EXALTATION OF PAIN
Epic Spell
Spellcraft DC: 36
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 300 ft.
Target: One outsider
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 324,000 gp; 7 days; 12,960 XP. Seed: Transform (DC 21). Factors: change outsider to setting mechanic (+5 DC), grant one supernatural ability (+10 DC).

With this spell, you transform one outsider into an exact physical likeness of the Lady of Pain. (Again, you can change the target's creature type, if you want to, when developing the spell. We recommend choosing your own creature type, so you can cast this on yourself.) The target gets Spell Resistance and a Fortitude save, but with a bit of coaching beforehand you can probably convince your target to fail these rolls voluntarily. Since the Lady of Pain is a setting mechanic and doesn't need Hit Dice, this spell will work on any outsider, even something as weak as a 1/2 HD celestial kobold.

The transformed creature is an exact physical duplicate of the Lady of Pain, sharing all natural abilities and physical abilities, but retaining their own mental abilities. It also can Flay opponents, as the Lady can. (You can swap out Flay for a different supernatural ability when creating the spell, or - if you're a true twink - add additional supernatural abilities for +10 DC apiece.)

The creature retains its own memories and personality, so can engage in normal adventuring (for a very elastic value of 'normal', anyway, given its newfound ability to kill anything it wants with a ranged touch attack). Note that creatures transformed by this spell should avoid Sigil, as the Lady is likely to take offense, and this spell does not grant the enviable Better Than Yours initiative score.

That's it. I'm done. I'm sorry. I'm very sorry. If I could have posted this three days ago, I absolutely would have. Please don't kill me...

Danger: This spell does not grant a duplicate Lady control over portals (and cannot, as this ability is not listed in the Lady's writeup). Some possibility exists that the DM will notice this omission and rule that your duplicate Lady will find herself inexplicably barred from the Cage.
Warning: Manufacturer not liable if the Lady chooses to flay you during the process of developing/casting this spell.
Caution: Spell will not function if the Lady of Pain turns out to be three ratatosks balanced on each others' shoulders with a boatload of magical loot.