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Clueless's picture
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I know the project here has been kicked around a lot on other boards - did anyone sit down and lay out a timeline? If not - could you? It'd be useful as all heck in knowing what's going on and why...

Persephone Imytholin's picture
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By this do we mean a project timeline, or a setting timeline?

One will be much easier than the other, and that's the one that doesn't involve the real world. That said, it'd also be a little harder to prod people with.

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Both may actually be useful. I'm nat at all familar with the histoyr of how this idea came about...

But of big use would be a general one for the setting. I know there was mention of how earth(our earth) gets involved in things - it'd be good to know how that happened in *very* general terms. And how things happened prior to that... And when...

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As of yet, I don't think we'd defined when Earth broke the astral blockade... just a generic 'in the future'. It would definitely influence the setting as to when modern humans entered the planes... it'd be different if it was 1980s Earth as opposed to 2030s Earth.

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It seems there's a few key things that need to be decided. Offhand, these are:

  • Earth year for breaking blockade
  • Time since breaking blockade
  • Year where Earth stops being real-world Earth
  • Time after FW
  • Timing of 'Mechanus reboot'
  • Timing of Pandemonium's little change
  • Discovery of Cyberspace as... um... a plane.
  • Timing for major technological developments?
  • Demihumans popping up (if used, that is)
(hey, look! Nine items.)

[/]
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Well, I think that we were playing with the idea that the Earth Blockade was broken about 150-200 years after the Faction War.

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Just out of curosity, what PL are you going to set the "Real" world 5, or 6?

PL 5: INFORMATION AGE
The Industrial Age relied on chemical power, but in the Information Age, computer technology and electronics rule supreme. Satellite information systems and the Internet connect the globe digitally. This Progress Level also sees the introduction of fission power and weapons reducing the importance of fossil fuels. The automobile replaces the locomotive as the common form of travel. The first steps toward space travel involve massive chemical rockets, unmanned probes and satellites, and short-term manned missions.
The technology of the era allows greater citizen participation in government. The emergence of international alliances begins to dissolve borders between nations. Corporations gather power and begin to threaten government authority. Technology has a greater effect on individual lifestyles than on society as a whole. Most weapons at this time are refined versions of Industrial Age equipment. Rifles, machine guns, and heavy howitzers are still used by the world’s soldiers. Computerized targeting systems and guided weapons make warfare much more precise and efficient. Strategic weapons, tested but never used, exhibit the species’ power to exterminate itself in minutes.
Humanity experienced its Information Age as anxious years full of minor crises. The tension gradually alleviates through the age, and as the era ends new superpowers form.

PL 6: FUSION AGE
The development of fusion power provides an efficient, nonexpendable energy source that almost obliterates the need for chemical fuel sources. Advanced space exploration and colonization become possible. Computers become even more accessible, reliable, and powerful, leading to the development of virtual systems and widespread access to the global Internet.
Slowly, society experiences another revolution as individual nations are replaced by world powers. Megacorporations number among these new superpowers as the line between the national citizen and corporate employee is rendered indistinct. Armed with the means to eradicate the entire species, the world powers keep conflicts to the level of skirmishing and posturing, and integration of the Information Age’s improvements proceed peacefully.
Scientific advanced in genetic engineering lead to artificial evolution and the first government- and corporate-sanctioned attempts to genetically manipulate human beings. Early results are encouraging, with the manifestation of positive and negative mutations in the species toward the end of the age. Scientists also perfect cloning technology, and the first human clones are created.
In the later years of this age, the first crude applications of gravity induction technology appear, in the form of civilian and military vehicles that can move through the air without using physical propulsion or consumption of fuel.
Chemical-powered explosives and firearms remain the weapons of choice; fusion technology can’t be effectively miniaturized for personal combat. Nevertheless, advanced chemistry and superconducting technology change the materials and capabilities of many weapons. True spaceships become possible, propelled by powerful fusion drives, but still require a reaction mass to traverse space.
The age sees the tenuous settlement of other planets and asteroids within the same star system.

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Neither, actually. d20F looks like a great sci-fi resource, but most of it isn't a good fit for Planescape.

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"Persephone Imytholin" wrote:
Neither, actually. d20F looks like a great sci-fi resource, but most of it isn't a good fit for Planescape.

Either way, it's good to figure out what kind of technology we're planning on using. Are we planning on using common real-world tech, bleeding edge tech, or near future tech?

It has serious implications on the kinds of plots that can develop. What does biotech look like? What does space travel look like? Have we encountered extra-terrestrials on the Prime? What are cutting-edge computers and robotics capable of? Is there any sort of meaningful AI?

Of course, with the bizarre effects of magic and planar travel, these questions could be a little less important-- material designed for the 1980s, as was mentioned earlier, could probably be used in the 2030s, and vice versa, without seeming out of place. (Or, at least, any more out of place than anything else.)

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That really depends on how others want to see it. It's not just my setting, after all. I think it should probably start out as very near future, but then working through the implications of planar influences on tehnology as well as technological influences on the planes.

This works in with the way that the planes take some familiar things, and twist them into something completely different. This gives us things like a plane entirely made out of information.

Space travel probably isn't a huge concern at the moment, aside from keeping Earth's satellite network running (even though it seems like a lot of it's going through the outer planes).
The setting at the moment assumes that Earth's first well-known contact with things from Somewhere Else was the attempted Githyanki invasion.
'Meaningful AI' is practically the idea I had in mind for Cyberspace petitioners; to use Neuromancer examples, like Flatline rather than Wintermute.
Cybernetic enhancements could possibly evade incomplete knowledge of the nervous system by using some kind of magic or psionics to 'talk' to the user; the same trick would probably used for immersive Cyberspace connections (for which a decent name is still needed).

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"Persephone Imytholin" wrote:
That really depends on how others want to see it. It's not just my setting, after all.

Of course. I'm merely firing off the questions in an attempt to get a dialog started-- since the answers to these questions will have a powerful influence on the setting's tone.

(That, and I've been trying to run a Planescape/Star*Drive crossover campaign for years, and the idea fascinates me.)

"Persephone Imytholin" wrote:
I think it should probably start out as very near future, but then working through the implications of planar influences on technology as well as technological influences on the planes.

I am inclined to agree... though I'm forced to wonder what effect, exactly, the planes would have on technology. I can see perhaps the development of non-magical planar sextants, but I'm otherwise stumped. (Well, I do have a couple of ideas regarding using the Astral Plane to circumvent relativity, a la Dragonstar, but that would involve changing the tone of the setting considerably.)

Going in the reverse direction, however, I can easily see how modern beliefs and practices might change the planes... the banks of Hell are a very vivid image.

"Persephone Imytholin" wrote:
Space travel probably isn't a huge concern at the moment, aside from keeping Earth's satellite network running (even though it seems like a lot of it's going through the outer planes).

That seems like a natural place to start-- with expanding Earth's infrastructure throughout the planes as much as possible, adapting to planar physics which do not match up with our own. There could be several interesting adventures based around such efforts.

"Persephone Imytholin" wrote:
The setting at the moment assumes that Earth's first well-known contact with things from Somewhere Else was the attempted Githyanki invasion.

I'd gathered that. Strikes me as a lovely idea-- the Githyanki are a perfect Planescape blend of alien and familiar, and they fit well with our popular media images of extraterrestrials. I can imagine, after discovering that the Planes are shaped by belief, rampant speculation that the Githyanki were created by a century's worth of UFO abduction stories and ET invasion plots; and, of course, the Githyanki becoming very highly offended by such speculation.

Of course, this causes me to wonder if, even if we're avoiding extra-terrestrial Primes, the Fraal might not have a role to play after all. Eye-wink

"Persephone Imytholin" wrote:
Cybernetic enhancements could possibly evade incomplete knowledge of the nervous system by using some kind of magic or psionics to 'talk' to the user; the same trick would probably used for immersive Cyberspace connections (for which a decent name is still needed).

If rare, such things might prove interesting, but I dislike intensely the idea of merging magic and technology, or worse, having magic-dependent technology, especially for inventions which would quickly become influential forces on society (like immersive cyberspace).

On the other hand, magic does provide new avenues for research into these fields, and I see no problem with cross-disciplinary exploration.

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That was the other possibility - magic and psionics helping some flavours of research along to build purely-technological technology, which would help keep technology and magic from mixing too much.

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Quote:
If rare, such things might prove interesting, but I dislike intensely the idea of merging magic and technology, or worse, having magic-dependent technology, especially for inventions which would quickly become influential forces on society (like immersive cyberspace).

Why? It opens up such a vast field of research - and if they do become major features of society - well, its all meat for the grinder, more story hooks - as opposed to just 'Planescape with guns'.

Afterall, Earth forces are probably only incursing onto the planes in order to nick technology (magic) - at first it will be simply stuff like magically enhancing their firearms in order to fight the inevitable demon attacks, but as things move on (and more people discover the planes and get there on their own initiative) the fusion of everything seems inevitable...

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"Companero" wrote:
Why? It opens up such a vast field of research - and if they do become major features of society - well, its all meat for the grinder, more story hooks - as opposed to just 'Planescape with guns'.
The problem is that it breaks the wall between what magic and technology instrinsically are.

In order for technology to credibly exist, it needs to be fairly ubiquitous-- high-level technology is required in order to create other high-level technologies. Technology is reliable, orderly, and predictable, even when it fails. (It fails for logical reasons and can typically be repaired.) Technology utilizes the laws of physics.

Magic, on the other hand, needs to be selective-- not necessarily rare, but exclusive in who can use it. Magic does not require infrastructure, and unless the cosmology dictates otherwise, relies on the will of the user instead of its designed function. Magic fluctuates and changes, even when people have learned the laws that "govern" it. Magic defies the laws of physics.

Merging the two does a disservice to both, thematically. And settings in which the two are indistinguishable (Dragonstar, for instance) suffer for it. Making technomagic a major feature of the setting would, in my opinion, detract from the themes that Planescape revolves around.

"Companero" wrote:
Afterall, Earth forces are probably only incursing onto the planes in order to nick technology (magic) - at first it will be simply stuff like magically enhancing their firearms in order to fight the inevitable demon attacks, but as things move on (and more people discover the planes and get there on their own initiative) the fusion of everything seems inevitable...

Inevitable unless it is impossible.

I have no problem with military forces (and others) having magical weapons in order to deal with demons-- as long as those are mainly either special units or special soldiers within normal units. Magic is special.

Likewise, I have no problem with magic-users adopting technology, or technology-users adopting magic. I can see Wizards trading spells on the Planarnet, or technicians resorting to a wand of repair light damage when mundane efforts fail.

What I don't want is mass-produced keen Evil Outsider bane +3 Colt M16A1s, magical teleportation services replacing La Guardia, or starcasters. I don't want machines programmed to use or make magic. I don't want to see magic replacing technology in any aspect of society.

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"Korimyr the Rat" wrote:
Technology is reliable, orderly, and predictable, even when it fails... Technology utilizes the laws of physics.

Right, and wrong. Technology plays by the rules of where it's from, and its ability to work depends on how well it can play by the rules of where it is. Earth technology will work best under earth-like circumstances, but may function completely differently (or not at all) in Limbo.

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Magic, on the other hand, needs to be selective-- not necessarily rare, but exclusive in who can use it... Magic fluctuates and changes, even when people have learned the laws that "govern" it. Magic defies the laws of physics.

Magic breaks some rules, but follows others. The more rules it breaks, the harder it is to use [spell levels]. In places where the rules are different, it is either more or less effective [planar traits].

Quote:
Merging the two does a disservice to both, thematically... Making technomagic a major feature of the setting would, in my opinion, detract from the themes that Planescape revolves around.

Merging the two everywhere, all the time and in every way is exactly as likely to happen as a +5 enchantment on every rock on Avernus.

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Inevitable unless it is impossible.

Sigil sits above the infinitely tall Spire. Impossible's not an obstacle.

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Likewise, I have no problem with magic-users adopting technology, or technology-users adopting magic. I can see Wizards trading spells on the Planarnet, or technicians resorting to a wand of repair light damage when mundane efforts fail.

My mental image of mixing magic and technology were specific elements of either being used to 'hack' around some limitations of the other.

For example, cyberspace constructs hack golem creation for programs with limited intelligence and awareness. On the other hand, you're not going to see an iPod of Fireball. Spellbooks recorded in an electronic format are reasonable, whereas PowerWordKill.exe isn't.

Spell trading would probably need some kind of special connection, in much the same way as scrolls and spellbooks need to be made out of special paper.

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What I don't want is mass-produced keen Evil Outsider bane +3 Colt M16A1s [or] machines programmed to use or make magic.

Machines programmed to make or use magic aren't going to happen. Select elements of machines programmed with magic or made to work with the aid of suitable enchantments, however, may be possible. Spells targeting machines are also likely.

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There is no way whatsoever a machine could work or activate magic. Or psionics, for that matter. Both require some type of intent and "mental existence", for lack of a better term. So spell-casting ipods(Unless they've got a built-in wand of fireball, and the user says the command word) are out of the question. I could, however, easily see a psion/hacker setting up his psicrystal to control his home network security or something. Also, for tech level, I suggest bleeding edge(Maybe a bit lower for everywhere but Earth). That gives us bionics(adding psionics to make limbs with better maneuvrebility(sp?)), nuclear power(which would give a lot less hassle with a transmute Uranium-238 to Uranium-235 spell), extremely durable spelljammers(what with compressed air), bullpup firearms, and other such fun stuff(like interplanar cellphones).

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"Persephone Imytholin" wrote:
My mental image of mixing magic and technology were specific elements of either being used to 'hack' around some limitations of the other.

For example, cyberspace constructs hack golem creation for programs with limited intelligence and awareness.

I like this, if it's suitably rare-- the product of exceptional people trained in both disciplines. (Or even as a collaborative effort.) I don't mind the occasional technomagic artifact, or an adventure or two that revolves around some bizarre implentation of technomagic.

As long as it isn't a staple of the setting, a major theme, it's an intriguing concept.

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I have to agree.

The rarer it is... creates more mystery and feelings of the unknown when dealing with such technomagic artifact. Technology tends to define and create a factual basis.

Perhaps the training required is a long and ardous journey of both self-discovery and the building of the relationship between magic and technology. Not all initiates survive it, and those that do never see the planescape in the same way as they did before. Everything they see breaks down into magical and technological components. For these disciples... even the mortal form is a "kind" of technology.

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Except that, given the planes exhibit different laws in different spots, technology has a locally factual basis. Those technological components further break down into their interactions with their surrounding environment, leading to further complications for the aspiring technomage. It follows that a technomage using some piece of technology from the Grey Waste, enhanced with magic on Elysium, would only really expect it to work 'properly' on the Outlands - and then, each component would be weaker than it otherwise would on its home plane.

[yes, you can assume that I liked the 2e system of degrading enchantments for distance from where items were made]

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A good point.

Certain planes would have more regulated uses of technology than others... especially on those urban planes where technology has taken root in the society and mentality of the plane and its cultures since the beginning.

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Beyond belief, the environment itself poses a hazard to some pieces of gadgetry. Some shiny technological toy from Mechanus will have extreme difficulties working in Limbo, for example.

It'd follow that any pieces of advanced technology that might be in a Gith city are engineered to *rely* on the surrounding chaos, or on Anarchs.

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Cold. Cold can affect technology more than you'd think. Yes - it makes computers run faster... but it also makes metals *brittle* the more cold it gets... somewhere around here I have a list of temperatures at which things stop *working*, I'll have to pull that out and copy it here. (Thanks be to Call of Cthulhu resource books - they're the kings of detail...)

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Cold is indeed another good one. The flipside to that, of course, is that a number of mechanical things run better hot.

I think Chaosium's love of detail comes from Lovecraft's writing style - get the normal things *perfect*, and the horrific details are so much more effective.

And your infectious asterisks make me *feel* like I'm playing Torment.

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:oops: But I like asterisks!

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The asterisks are fine, but they make me want to say that they *know* themselves. Or suggest that they *Emphasise*, and in *emphasising* grow strong.

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