Time in sigil

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Caladors's picture
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Time in sigil

I'm putting it here as I do not know where else to put it.

A small thought, that popped into my head today.
In Sigil, it would make no sense for days to be rated in the same way as they are here.
Time is not going to be rated on the earths rotation and it's in Sigil there is no seasons.
So it make sense to me that with the Guvners there also that time would be rated in the decimal form.
Ie. 100 Seconds to a mintune, 100 mintunes to a hour.
Though I am far from a mathmatical guy it seems to make sense.
You live in a place where there is no dominate God or Belief System so it falls to goverment to fill this slot.
(I say this because our system of messuring time, months and days is hand down from the romans and there various beliefs shaped them.)

And pre-war this would have been in the Guvners hands.

It's just a thought but I think an interesting one..

Iavas's picture
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factotums
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Time in sigil

Interesting idea. It's pretty well established that there is Peak, Antipeak, and hours inbetween. How long those hours are, however, is not really mentioned anywhere I can remember. Thus, maybe the hours are 100 minutes each, and every minute 100 seconds. Thus the days in Sigil are longer, as are the nights. Such sleep deprevation not only alienates green primes in a subtle way, but also goes a way to explain the rather bzzzzout there personalities of some longterm Sigilians.

Bob the Efreet's picture
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factotums
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Time in sigil

So something like metric time, then?

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Iavas's picture
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Time in sigil

Yup. Sounds Guvner enough for me, and nobody else would care. How many of these hours (each about 2.777 of our hours long) are there in a Sigilian day? I doubt it would be 100 as well, as that would make Sigil too lawful. How about 13?

Schloss Ritter's picture
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Time in sigil

Well, there are definitely more lawful (Lady's, Clerk's) and more chaotic (HiVe) sections of the city. Just assigning a base 10 system of keeping time wouldn't really change the city on a whole, as teH hIve is chaotic enough to balance it out.

Remember, "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so."

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Time in sigil

Hmm. 13, as well as 10 are a bit difficult to divide into the four sections of the day. I guess 12 hours (because they are about twice as long as ours) or 16 (because of the symetry, and because there are 16 outer planes) would make sense.

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factotums
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Time in sigil

Well, I chose 13 because it wasn't too metric a number (aka not 10), not based on our own time system (multiples of 6) and not too big or too small to cause a major change in daylength. I didn't think that much about symmetry.

However, it does seem important enough to be able to divide the day into at least two equal parts (day and night), and preferably that without breaking the hour. 16 hours seems logical, especially, as you pointed out, since there are that many outer planes. However, a 43+ earth-hour day is a bit much. I would suggest 8, as that would make a 22 earth-hour day, but it would make more sense (in my mind, at least) to have Sigil have slightly longer days. Thus, 12 hours a day (roughly 32 earth-hours per day) seems the best bet.

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Time in sigil

Now mind you the 12/24 hr system that we have isn't actually that illogical either - the original pattern was based on the degrees of a circle. Aka- the sun's arc. If any of the guvners are from the Prime...

In addition, the length of an hour, minute, or second is still based on that circle as I mentioned above. There's no reason for any of those to be the same length as it is in real life if you're tossing out the standard convention already... so a 'second' in an alternate system may be half a second in real life or what have you.

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Factol
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Time in sigil

Sigil has seasons.

Caladors's picture
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Time in sigil

Wow lots of responses = cool.

well yeah thanks for the link bob an interesting concept I'm not sure whom said it I think it maybe off some clichéd movie but I think what was said was, 'Always find quotes when you want to say something, some has always said it better than you' American history X?

Clueless I think also though that the people whom made those calculations would have been using the imperial system so wouldn't they want it to fit that more.
But yeah I agree that it's not illogical it's just not very mathematically tight.

Thanks rip for the link however when they referred to the seasons they said 'Narciss
Narciss marks the first month of the Philosophical Summer.'
It didn't seem to mark a real change in weather or what not.
Not having a dig but is that official?

Anywho In regards to chaos and law in Sigil apparently the lady is lawful neutral (FTW?).
Well ok that was just something I found weird.
But just because a place is neutral I don't think that chaotic people would stop a calendar or measurement of time I just think that they wouldn't care as much about certain times ect.
And I think decimals is nothing new too the whole Guvners.
But ten hours of day time ten night fits nicely.
thank you Iavas, Eldan and Schloss Ritter for your thoughts

Anyway I was just thinking that time and how it is measured could have far reaching implications like what the city celebrates is something that could be used for a number of adventure hooks.
Also say a day is you know X in metric or whatever it could mean that people get more/less sleep which means as Iavas would account for certain personalities.

All good thanks for replies.

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Time in sigil

'Caladors' wrote:
Clueless I think also though that the people whom made those calculations would have been using the imperial system so wouldn't they want it to fit that more. But yeah I agree that it's not illogical it's just not very mathematically tight.

Um. It's Not the imperial system. It's a base 60 - it's what we *currently* use for degrees and radians. It is rather mathematically tight.

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Time in sigil

'Clueless' wrote:
'Caladors' wrote:
Clueless I think also though that the people whom made those calculations would have been using the imperial system so wouldn't they want it to fit that more. But yeah I agree that it's not illogical it's just not very mathematically tight.

Um. It's Not the imperial system. It's a base 60 - it's what we *currently* use for degrees and radians. It is rather mathematically tight.

We get it from the Sumerians - they used a base 60 numbering system. I think the logic there was that it was passed down to them from their gods.

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Iavas's picture
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Time in sigil

'Caladors' wrote:
Anywho In regards to chaos and law in Sigil apparently the lady is lawful neutral (FTW?). Well ok that was just something I found weird. But just because a place is neutral I don't think that chaotic people would stop a calendar or measurement of time I just think that they wouldn't care as much about certain times ect. And I think decimals is nothing new too the whole Guvners.

The Lady of Pain has an alignment? Let me guess, you got that from some WotC source. I wouldn't be surprised if they gave her stats next. It's all screed, she has no more alignment than does the Far Realm.

What I meant by bringing alignment into the conversation in the first place was that Sigil, not being a Lawful place like Mechanus, would be unlikely to follow a superlogical metric base-ten time system. Thus the natural day, that is the time between one peak and the next, would not have a round number of hours in it, unless those hours were designated in such a way as to fit evently (but then the hours themselves would not be round). The only way that Guvners could make everything perfect is by changing the length of the accepted second and working up from there, and while I would not be surprised at such from them, it would be far too confusing for a regular game.

'Caladors' wrote:
But ten hours of day time ten night fits nicely.

If you mean twenty of those 2.78 earth-hour long hours in a complete cycle, then that would be a long day indeed.

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re

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Thanks rip for the link however when they referred to the seasons they said 'Narciss Narciss marks the first month of the Philosophical Summer.' It didn't seem to mark a real change in weather or what not. Not having a dig but is that official?

Well, these days the material on this site are the closest you're going to come to finding anything official.

That said, it isn't the physical weather which is changing, but the philosophical - the focus of the city changes to some degree, which any cutter will tell you can be more dramatic than a few rain showers or sunny days.

I have made use of this Sigilian calendar for some time and got a good deal of mileage out of it. My players appreciate it because it differs from prime world concepts of seasonal shift while maintaining a relatively recognizable format. (Until I drop Leagueheim on them that is)

As to the length of hours and number of hours per day, do whatever feels right for you. I've used most of the ideas presented here at one time or another - I also fiddled with basing the time off 3's, 90 seconds/minute, 60 minutes/hour, 30 hours/day; but that turned out to make for very long days. Ultimately I went with our standard time measurements for the same of simplicity.

Jem
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Time in sigil

The base-60 system for hours and minutes derives from the Babylonians. They used a base-60 system in dividing the circle into 360 degrees (6 equilateral triangles can be inscribed in a circle, each subtending 60 degrees of arc). This was intended for calendrical purposes, dividing the year into 360 days. It was for similar reasons that the Mayans used a numbering system which was base 20 in the units digit, base 18 in the second digit (for a product of 18*20 = 360), then base 20 in larger digits.

Calendrical calculations were by far the most important in the early development of mathematics, with the geometry and trigonometry being used for agricultural and religious purposes. Base-10 mathematics, used by the Egyptians with less mathematical sophistication, did not catch on as much in the early years and so base-60 calculations for degrees in a circle and associated timekeeping measurements became the standard.

The upshot of this for Sigilian timekeeping is that, without the backhistory, hours and minutes probably will be different. Note that the Guvners are now involved in post-FW days with keeping the "Hands of Time," a place in Sigil not much described. Since different planes on the Prime and the Great Ring may have wildly different calendars and even day lengths and year lengths, not to mention rates of time flow (and varying rates of time flow), a very useful service for people with cross-planar commitments would be a corporation dedicated to keeping track of astrological information, time and date on the various planes. Clockwork in pre-modern Sigil has not advanced to the point where small portable watches can be created, but with a large, fairly accurate timepiece and experts knowledgeable about planar and prime astronomy and calendar math would be able to provide various services. They could discuss relative planar time flow rates, calculate (or, in the case of chaotic planes, estimate) local times for such things as due bills or expiration of contracts, and send magical messages at preappointed times, generally serving as calendar translators.

Now, the Guvners being from Mechanus a base-17 system might appeal to them (the Great Modron March occurs every 17 major turns of Regulus, each of which takes 17 years), but the problem with a prime base for timekeeping is that it is in no way conveniently divisible. Let's instead examine how timekeeping might have naturally developed in Sigil.

You have peak and antipeak. People can tell when the light is roughly halfway between the two, and set their morning and evening by it. So we have 'half past antipeak' (morning) and 'half past peak' (evening). The first thing that seems convenient is to further divide the day into midmorning and midafternoon, giving us 'quarter til peak' and 'quarter past peak', and likewise the night around antipeak. This gives us 8 divisions of the day. If for convenience we divide each of these into a more easily digestible bite, we get 'one-eigth past peak,' 'quarter past peak,' 'three eighths past peak,' 'half past peak,' 'three eighths 'til antipeak,' 'quarter to antipeak,' 'eighth to antipeak,' and 'antipeak,' and likewise around the morning to peak. The day now has 16 divisions.

In the spirit of Cager slang, we might call these eighths bits (as in eight bits to a dollar, from some Prime world), or, if the Guvners are in the habit of ringing a good loud bell to mark the time, we could call them bells. So. We have a nice binary system of 16 hours a day, 8 between each peak and antipeak, called bells. And it wouldn't be long before some wag would be calling the crack of dawn 'the Mechanus bell,' the bell that signifies work is getting seriously started 'the Arcadia bell,' the peak bell 'the Elysium bell,' and so on around the Great Ring.

Within these you have minutes and seconds, but to anyone before the advent of precise clockwork that knowledge has almost zero utility. Second- and minute-timescale intervals are more likely to be measured in 'calm breaths' or 'as long as it takes to walk a mile' or something like that. For must-have research measurements, it might be in the binary spirit of this whole system to give 64 minutes per bell and 64 seconds per minute, leading to a second just slightly longer than Earth's.

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Time in sigil

I like it, Jem. I like it a lot. I was trying to go the other way, thinking from seconds up and in a Guvner frame of mind (something that does not come easily to me, I assure you). However, your big to small way of dividing Sigil's twofold day (peak/antipeak) is the natural sort of evolution that was evading me.

Thus, now that you explain it, it seems very logical that there should indeed be 16 'sigilian hours' or bells (poor Autochon), as Eldan previously suggested. What I was trying to do was to compare the time to Earth-standard hours and work a logical system around that, but that seems too ethnocentric in retrospect.

How long would a bell be, though, of curiousity?

Jem
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Time in sigil

'Iavas' wrote:
How long would a bell be, though, of curiousity?

Assuming that antipeak to antipeak is as long as an Earth day (or an Oerth day? Anyway...), a bell would be an hour and a half long in our units.

At 64 minutes per bell and 64 seconds per minute, Sigil's minutes and seconds would also be about half again as long as ours. (45/32 and 675/512 respectively, to be exact, but if you've a pressing need to convert between real-life seconds and Sigil seconds I want to use whatever portal you've got in your window.... ;^) )

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Time in sigil

No, I actually begin drolling stupidly at progressively more complex mathematics, even as abject curiousity drives me forward.

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Time in sigil

At least one take on the Cager year already exists:

http://www.deathstar.org/~krlipka/ps/things/thoughts/sigilcal.html

Edit: Bah, Rip linked it first.

I mentally think of Sigil's calendar as "Sigil Reckoning," in the same sense that we use A.D. (Anno Domini), BC, BCE, and so on. "Sigil Reckoning" would probably be a de facto standard of timekeeping across the planes, even if some local areas use totally different systems for their own use.

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Time in sigil

Holy Mc Crud!
I feel out this league Sad
BUT!
I do feel good that I have sparked discussion and interest.
Yeah Iavas I did get it from a book WotC book umm Planar Handbook?
Anywho
As far as I understand I read it somewhere that this site (the site and what is published) is accutally offical of sorts because they kept there name as a registered Fan site or something...

Well anyway what I ment was they way they measured it apperently as Jem has shown is not as i thought it but anywho.
Basicly my thought was that Sigil was far from natural and how things worked there would be different well it would make sense if they did anyway if you follow my thinking.

Anywho glad that it's being discussed an all that.

Jem
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Time in sigil

Hey, my idea is no more official than your idea. :^) You want 10 hours a day with 100 minutes per hour and 100 seconds per minute, that's easy to set up and makes just as good sense. For example, it's easy to calculate timespans that way: if 1.2374 is one hour, 23 minutes and 74 seconds after antipeak, and 5.25 is a quarter hour after peak, then the time between the two is 5.25 - 1.2374 = 4.0126 hours. :^)

(You can do the same kind of calculations in a 16/64/64 system... though they'd be in binary.)

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