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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

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Tue, 2005-01-18 22:39
#1
neuronphaser
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

I've been doing my own conversion of Planescape (using a LOT of what Planewalker is doing and just tweaking stuff for 3.5), but one thing that's bugging the bejeezus out of me is the Plane of Shadow. I'm totally up in the air as to whether to keep it as a Plane itself or toss it back to Demiplane status.

Quick note: I'm sure all of this has been discussed before, but a quick search yielded nothing, so hopefully this isn't a repeat (if it is, somebody point me the right way and I'm there).

I've got most of the PS books, as well as most of the 3.5 stuff, but I just can't seem to grasp what the big consequences are for the Plane of Shadow. I like the Ethereal being the link between Prime worlds as opposed to the Shadow, but is there any other things it'll effect?

Your comments, questions and suggestions would be much appreciated! BTW, this is my first post, so howdy to all you stylin' planewalker (and Planewalker.com) folks! PS is the best campaign setting I've ever discovered, so keep up the good work too. [end schmoozing]

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Tue, 2005-01-18 23:38
#2
Krypter
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

Howdi, neuronphaser. Welcome aboard. Don't get too comfortable; we'll be grilling you in no time! Eye-wink

Although this is not canon, I've always thought of Shadow as being the border region between the Positive and Negative Energy Planes, with Light and Darkness blending to create Shadow. Intersecting Shadow with the Prime Material Plane creates the Inverted World, where your evil doppelganger rules the world. As such I consider Shadow to be more of a matter/elemental plane than a transitive plane.

The 3E interpretation elevates shadow to being a separate transitive plane almost like the Shadow found the Amber novels of Roger Zelazny. It is a place where different realities meld together, and you can travel through shadow to any other place in the imagination. Even back to 2nd Edition D&D!

Wed, 2005-01-19 01:25
(Reply to #2) #3
moogle001
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

I'll tell that it is my intention to make the Shadow Plane one of what I've termed "Pseudo Planes", planes that are coexistent with virtually every part of the multiverse. Thus there will be a shadow version of the Outer Planes, though difficult to access, and one can only imagine what's there...

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Wed, 2005-01-19 10:08
(Reply to #3) #4
Krypter
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

"moogle001" wrote:
Thus there will be a shadow version of the Outer Planes, though difficult to access, and one can only imagine what's there...

Asmodeus running an orphanage for children in the Fortress of Nice Things? Eye-wink

I've contemplated that idea myself, but once you introduce multiplicities of everything it becomes very complicated very fast. Shadow versions of all the Elemental planes? All the Powers replicated? Two Sigils?

Wed, 2005-01-19 12:07
(Reply to #4) #5
neuronphaser
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

I guess that's one of the underlying questions--if the Ethereal allows travel between multiple Prime Material worlds and access to the Inner Planes, what good is the Plane of Shadow as a full-fledged plane?

I like the Plane of Shadow as written in the 3.0 Manual of Planes, minus the whole connection between Prime Material worlds. The thing of it is, what then is the utility of the plane outside of being a home for about a grand total of what, 9 monsters? Obviously, I'd also like to keep the spells that utilize it (project image, shadow evocation, etc.), but that's sort of a non-issue: despite what the MotP says, those spells don't change that much whether or not there's a Plane of Shadow (you just explain them differently).

I have a feeling I'm erring on the side of making it full fledged plane that just borders on the Prime (coexistent), but the fundamental question remains what is the purpose of the Plane of Shadow? The Astral is the arena of the mind and thought, connecting to the Outer Planes and belief. The Ethereal is physical potential connecting to the Inner Planes and the building blocks of all things material. What's the Plane of Shadow then?

Or am I just being too over-philosophical about this Eye-wink

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Wed, 2005-01-19 13:49
(Reply to #5) #6
Elethíus
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

I see the Plane of Shadow as it is in 3.0 as the Plane that links Prime worlds to their "alternate" selves. Since Planescape assumes that characters have a free will (well, kinda), every other action has different consequences. And, according to the whole butterfly-effect-thingy, one minor event can completely change the course of history.

Because things on Shadow are kind of a blur, I think the feel of this plane is ideal for bridging the gaps between alternate worlds. Where the Ethereal connects different worlds in the spatial realm (allowing acces to spatially different worlds, like getting from Earth's Border Ethereal to the Border of some far-out planet, through the Deep, of course) Shadow connects a Prime world to slightly alternate versions of that same world.

I don't really like the 3.0 idea of Shadow linking together completely different cosmologies. That just seems a bit too much. Also, I like the Great Wheel-construction enough.

Wed, 2005-01-19 14:25
(Reply to #6) #7
taotad
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The Shadowlie

I tackled the rise of the Shadow Planes elevation from demiplane to transitive plane by saying that it evolves, or rather spreads through the mulitverse. I treat it in many ways as a disease that spreads through the minds of prime material minds, and hides things, impressions and ideas from them.
These ideas can be accessed by travelling through the Shadow Plane and sort of "re-constructing" reality.

By this I mean that all planes and worlds are bundled together, its just that the Shadow Plane marks borders of conceiving reality, thus seemingly creating different multiverses even though there is none

I've written an article on the subject here on Planewalker, under Shadow Plane section if there is further interest.

Thu, 2005-01-20 04:01
(Reply to #7) #8
Nemui
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

I don't see the big deal about the status of Shadow. Demiplane or "true" plane, it's not like anyone will be looking for the borders...

I treat the Shadow Plane as a non-reality, a plane where all the proto-real things that never become anything really real end up eventually.

It's not really evil, but it's a little malevolent because the unreal envies the real, and wants to truly exist, so it eats up real creatures and objects every chance it gets.

It's cold because... well, I couldn't explain the connection; I don't really understand why shadows are always associated with cold in some way. Is it like light=heat? Dunno.

Thu, 2005-01-20 06:40
(Reply to #8) #9
Almighty Watashi
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

The way I see it is that astral is the ultimate transitive plane (everything connects to the astral)

Ethereal is the transitive plane between primes, elementals and demiplanes

Shadow used to be a demiplane. Since I run the "old" planescape, i still proclaim shadow as the demiplane (players replied with "yea whatever, who cares, just run the game" Sticking out tongue)

In the new planescape (MotP & PH 3e), shadow is the fully made transitive plane, just like the ethereal

Also, if there is another advancement in planescape (new edition, new adventures, ps_modern etc.) i guess the next transitive plane would be "time" :E

Fri, 2005-01-21 10:10
(Reply to #9) #10
Fell
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

"moogle001" wrote:
I'll tell that it is my intention to make the Shadow Plane one of what I've termed "Pseudo Planes", planes that are coexistent with virtually every part of the multiverse. Thus there will be a shadow version of the Outer Planes, though difficult to access, and one can only imagine what's there...
What a terribly fascinating idea...

Would this mean that there would be a shadow version of the Spire as well? Do you fully intend to develop this idea?

Fri, 2005-01-21 15:44
(Reply to #10) #11
Krypter
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

"Nemui" wrote:
I treat the Shadow Plane as a non-reality, a plane where all the proto-real things that never become anything really real end up eventually.

Yes, all the half-formed and half-remembered things and thoughts end up, or originate here. That's similar to the way I have it. They're not all necessarily evil either. A child's invisible friend may have a temporary existence on Shadow...until the child grows up.

Quote:
It's not really evil, but it's a little malevolent because the unreal envies the real, and wants to truly exist, so it eats up real creatures and objects every chance it gets.

I like that phrase. "The unreal envies the real." Have to use that the next time a PC uses some shadow magic.

Fri, 2005-01-21 17:06
(Reply to #11) #12
Kaelyn
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

In the Hellenistic cosmology described in Deities & Demigods, Shadow is the transitive plane that leades to the Underworld - the mythical Erebus that lies between Gaea and Hades. This is interesting to me, and it can be approximated in the Planescape cosmology by having the paths of Mount Olympus lead through the Plane of Shadow between Arborea and the third gloom of the Gray Waste.

Sun, 2005-01-23 18:35
(Reply to #12) #13
jesterjeff
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

Hi all, new to the forum so please take it easy on me. lol

Tossing my two cents in; I agree with the idea that the Ethereal is a wide spead means of accessing other planes, while Shadow allows access to alternate and parallel realities. Thus Shadow's effect is still localized and focused enough to keep its demiplane status if you have little interest in it, while those who study Shadow and make use of it are thoroughly impressed enough to begin refering to it as a plane.

Mon, 2005-01-24 09:43
(Reply to #13) #14
Primus, the One...
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

In terms of Unreality I've always taken a somewhat Gaiman-istic view in my PS theorizing, placing the realms of all fantasy, fiction, and unreality in the Dream Plane/Wall of Color/Dreaming/Dreamtime. Thus an invisible friend would be a fantasy that has scrapped together a semblance of reality from the ether only to dissolve over time (or achieve full autonomy in some fashion).

Though seeing Shadow as the Material's dark mirror Real/Unreal makes sense.

Wed, 2005-01-26 06:36
(Reply to #14) #15
Fell
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

"Primus, the One and Prime" wrote:
Thus an invisible friend would be a fantasy that has scrapped together a semblance of reality from the ether only to dissolve over time (or achieve full autonomy in some fashion).
Perhaps by breaching through to the Silvery Void... There's certainly enough stray mental energy floating around for the fantasy friend to gain some measure of "true" reality.

Wed, 2005-01-26 20:35
(Reply to #15) #16
Nemui
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Thoughts on the Plane of Shadow

"Primus, the One and Prime" wrote:
In terms of Unreality I've always taken a somewhat Gaiman-istic view in my PS theorizing, placing the realms of all fantasy, fiction, and unreality in the Dream Plane/Wall of Color/Dreaming/Dreamtime. Thus an invisible friend would be a fantasy that has scrapped together a semblance of reality from the ether only to dissolve over time (or achieve full autonomy in some fashion).

Interesting, I ran into this post just as I was contemplating whether or not to submit *this* to PW...

(I always thought the "Gaiman universe" would be too much of a hassle to properly incorporate into PS, but I tried doing just the Endless... I had to go with the Delirium perspective because I'm still not entirely clear on how and where they should fit)

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