Thoughts on FCII (and FCI while we're at it)?

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Kobold Avenger's picture
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Thoughts on FCII (and FCI while we're at it)?

I'm still reading through the Fiendish Codex II. But my first thoughts are that I don't like this book as much as I did with Fiendish Codex I. This one has a lot of contradictory material. Like the thing on the Baatezu heirarchy where they put in non-Baatezu like Imps and Kytons, and ignore the Kocrachons (and Baatezu not in the MM or FCII), exclude the Abishai from that.

Sure they actually came up with good reasons and descriptions for "soul-harvesting" and corrupting mortals. But I feel they messed up in a lot of places, and that's not including neglecting the ancient baatorians, which I was assuming would be mentioned because of the Obyriths in the other book. But then both books are written by different people, so consistency between the two are lost. They could have done something else other than put in 4 more prestige classes and another race.

Also the myth behind the Pact Primeval has far more holes in it than the Demon and Yugoloth myths. This one you could say is only partially true, rather than possibly mostly true like the other myths.

With soul-harvesting in a true neutral society the Baatezu are only going to get 1 soul out of 100, which is why I see them trying to push for lawful evil societies. But when you think about it, the Baatezu have other forces to contend with for souls. The Tanar'i, Deities, Archons and Eladrin are out there to actively thwart Baatezu influences.

Also I'm pretty sure that all outsiders can possess people, I don't know why the Baatezu wouldn't use that as a tactic. They could make a mortal do something out of their control, and get them into trouble, and then face the mortal in person, and offer them advice for getting out of that trouble.

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Thoughts on FCII (and FCI while we're at it)?

The art gallery has a brand new picture of a kocrachon in it, so evidently the book originally mentioned kocrachons before they were cut for reasons of space.

There is a big problem with the book ignoring every plane other than Mount Celestia, Baator, and the Abyss. The "taint point" system is supposed to decide whether a lawful character ends up in Celestia or the Abyss, but doesn't account for the possibility of ending up in Gehenna, Acheron, Mechanus, Arcadia, or Bytopia. The origin myth really doesn't have a place for CG even existing within it.

I really like the Pact Primeval. I'm fascinated by the idea of mutual contracts between the various degrees of Law.

I assume they don't detail possession in this book because FCI already said just about everything that can be said about it. Most of what's written in the FCI would apply. However, the Pact Primeval prevents baatezu from taking away the free will of others without permission. They could possess only those who sign contracts allowing them to do so. Naturally, they're under no obligation to explain that this is part of the fine print.

As I said, I really like the Pact Primeval. It doesn't have to be ancient and immutable - it can be a living document continually renegotiated by baatezu and archon ambassadors - though I love the idea of the physical contracts existing in the various planes of Law so that if they were destroyed, much of Law would be destroyed too. I can imagine an epic campaign where the baatezu have won the Blood War - until the adventurers manage to shatter Baator's copy of the Pact Primeval, allowing Chaos and the tanar'ri to rally themselves back into balance.

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Thoughts on FCII (and FCI while we're at it)?

For some reason, FCI and FCII use different rules for the memory-draining power of the Styx. FCI says the Styx permanently erases your memory, leaving you feebleminded, while FCII says the memory loss is only temporary. What gives?

However, I definitely like FCII's take on the sixth layer of Hell. Back in the Planescape days, the sixth layer was about as interesting as the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze. (At least to me; I mean, who cares about a bunch of rolling rocks?) But now, it's a lot more interesting, plus it adds even more fiendish politics to the mix.

One thing I wonder about is Lord Paracs's "official passes" into Baator. Even in the Planescape days, it was always known that they weren't legally valid, but the devils were usually happy to look the other way. Now, it seems like they're a lot less likely to do so. If they scrag anyone with a Ribcage pass, though, it's going to screw up a lot of profitable planar trade, so what kind of deal is Paracs going to make?

Oh, and for some reason, all the layers of Hell are now finite. How can they compete with the Abyss now? Not to mention that it's now about 2000 miles from Darkspine to the Maggot Pit. How is anyone supposed to play Fires of Dis on that map?

We've got obyriths; we want ancient Baatorians! The entire planar Balance is at stake!

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Thoughts on FCII (and FCI while we're at it)?

I don't actually have the book yet, but from what I hear, I'm probably going to be disappointed. The lack of details about the Ancient Baatorians is especially frustrating. Ever since I read about the Obyriths, I was sure that WotC would do one thing right and add details about the devil's predecessors. That's what I get for hoping.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the only Outer Plane that can even remotely be considered finite is Gehenna, and even that's probably not true as the four furnaces refuse to be mapped. Likewise, I will refuse to go along with a shrunken new hell.

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Everyone who already has the book should simultaneously express their frustration and do their civic duty by getting the book availible for download on a usenet.

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Also, I'm pretty sure that the only Outer Plane that can even remotely be considered finite is Gehenna, and even that's probably not true as the four furnaces refuse to be mapped.

If the Spire is infinite and still has a top, why can't the Furnaces?

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Thoughts on FCII (and FCI while we're at it)?

'Iavas' wrote:
Also, I'm pretty sure that the only Outer Plane that can even remotely be considered finite is Gehenna, and even that's probably not true as the four furnaces refuse to be mapped. Likewise, I will refuse to go along with a shrunken new hell.

According to the 3E Manual of the Planes, Gehenna itself is infinite, but the four furnaces themselves are simply really, really big. They say the same thing about Mechanus and the cogs.

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Thoughts on FCII (and FCI while we're at it)?

'Duckluck' wrote:
According to the 3E Manual of the Planes, Gehenna itself is infinite, but the four furnaces themselves are simply really, really big. They say the same thing about Mechanus and the cogs.

The same is true in the 2E books from what I've seen - the void is infinite but the bits you can stand on (with some difficulty in Gehenna) are finite

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Thoughts on FCII (and FCI while we're at it)?

Planes of Law actually implied that Avernus was finite - it said that the layer was a lot bigger than it used to be since Darkspine slid. I always ignored that puzzling statement, though, and I intend to continue ignoring any implication that any of the layers of Baator have finite sizes.

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'Rick Summon' wrote:
For some reason, FCI and FCII use different rules for the memory-draining power of the Styx. FCI says the Styx permanently erases your memory, leaving you feebleminded, while FCII says the memory loss is only temporary. What gives?

Maybe the Styx has different effects based one the lower plane you're in at the time.

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We've got obyriths; we want ancient Baatorians! The entire planar Balance is at stake!

I think this was actually well-justified. It's not that the Baatorians are gone, it's that the Baatezu aren't talking about them. According to the Baator Propaganda Engine, such creatures never existed (Hell was apparently empty, but already there, when Asmodeus arrived. DO NOT QUESTION THE STATE.), and certainly don't still exist.

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Maybe the Styx has different effects based one the lower plane you're in at the time.

I'd buy that, except that the FCI description of the Styx's effects is actually mentioned elsewhere in FCII.

Not only that, the abishai are internally inconsistent as well. In the "devil hierarchy" section, it says that abishai advance from white to red, and then possibly to steel devil. In the abishai monster entry, it flat-out denies that abishai advance into different colors, and says they can be promoted to chain devils.

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Thoughts on FCII (and FCI while we're at it)?

When we are on the topic of guides to Baator inconsistent with Planescape; has anyone else read "The Gates of Hell" that was written by Dicefreaks? http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/index.php

It focuses exclusively on the Baatezu and the nobility of hell (or Court of Perdition as they call them) as opposed to the plane itself; but it seem to be more consistent with Planescape than FCII, and it is remarkably well written and thought out.

For those who haven't read it; the links to the book are down, but I can email chapters to whoever is interested.

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:
There is a big problem with the book ignoring every plane other than Mount Celestia, Baator, and the Abyss.

Don't forget the Outlands which is apparently there to connect the Prime to the outer planes. You know, that place with the towns that the Baatezu use powerful dark magic on to make them slide into Baator.

Just read those bits last night. Not happy.

I'm also not big on the treatment of the Hellish armies- they're all elite forces now, no place for hordes of lemures & nupperibos or many of the other lesser and least devils.

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I'm also not big on the treatment of the Hellish armies- they're all elite forces now, no place for hordes of lemures & nupperibos or many of the other lesser and least devils.

Well, I don't know if I'd call legion devils "elite forces"; their CR is less than a spinagon's. More importantly, the legion devils, steel devils, and orthons all have one thing in common: they actually gain combat benefits for fighting in an organized fashion. I mean, the demons fight simply by throwing vast numbers of fiends at their foes, clawing their way through anything that moves. Whereas the vast numbers of lemures and nupperibos... mindlessly claw through anything that moves.

Devils can't win that way. They need strategy -- and legion devils can use it.

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A lot of the book was written as if influenced by Baatezu propaganda. They're always going about how efficient the Baatezu legions are, and never much about their faults. FCI took time to point out some Tanar'i strengths and faults.

But as far as I see Tanar'i tactics go, as a general of their hordes, a lot of resources has to be invested in crowd control and enforcement of their own forces. I picture the Tanar'i hordes as having 19 out of 20 of their forces composed of manes, dretches, rutterkin and some jovocs. Baatezu forces might have similar ratios of lemures and nupperibos among their legions, but somehow I see them as having less of those in favour of more barbazu, and other soldier caste Baatezu.

Tanar'i generals likely attack by throwing waves of nearly uncontrollable hordes of least Tanar'i at the enemy, while the more elite Tanar'i pick out select targets that aren't being consumed by the waves of cannon fodder. To the Baatezu it might look like them doing something stupid, as the book really does seem to underestimate the craftiness of some (as in the more elite) Tanar'i.

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'Rick Summon' wrote:
Well, I don't know if I'd call legion devils "elite forces"; their CR is less than a spinagon's. More importantly, the legion devils, steel devils, and orthons all have one thing in common: they actually gain combat benefits for fighting in an organized fashion.

I was more referring to the sidebar in the Avernus section which outlined what was in each of the armies. You've got to admit, those profiles don't sound like they've got much cannon fodder - pretty much an essential part of a fantasy/medieval fighting force.

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It also occurs to me that the planes themselves are hungry for souls. FCII describes a lot about soul harvesting, and how it's a big part of Baatezu society, though it's more of a directive of Asmodeus rather than Baator itself (at least on the surface). While FCI basically describes the Abyss itself being sentient and hungering for souls, and possibly driving some need in Tanar'i and other demons to corrupt (to chaotic evil) and consume all.

But you take that into type of consideration into other planes, and you'll find that there's some kind of hunger for souls in them. The Gray Waste with it's emotionally draining effects, does drive one to neutral evil, along with it's denizens machinations. Elysium itself puts pressure on those in the plane to do good, and certainly the Guardinals would spread the virtue and other qualities of good around.

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Being new to all this, I could just be yaking on like a clueless Prime, but some/most petitioners eventually get absorbed into the planes that they inhabit, don't they? As far as I can tell, their essence is added to plane, making it stronger/keeping it running.

So it would make sense for the planes to encourage souls to arrive and then try to encourage them to stay. Of course, encouraging someone to stay in Mt. Celestia or Aborea is probably a lot easier than in the Abyss, which could explain the active collction of souls done by fiends rather than other exemplars.

Not only is it evil, but the celestials for example don't feel the need, because the plane gets a steady trickle of petitioners and planars who stay.

And then you have the Blood War. If you knew the other side were collecting souls to try and turn into troops, wouldn't you do the same?

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'Logue' wrote:
Of course, encouraging someone to stay in Mt. Celestia or Aborea is probably a lot easier than in the Abyss, which could explain the active collection of souls done by fiends rather than other exemplars.

To a chaotic evil person, the Abyss is a great place.

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
To a chaotic evil person, the Abyss is a great place.
It is most of the time, but to a lawful evil person Baator is also a bad place to be in, at least according to the stuff in FCII. I think that Baator is the only plane that isn't quite a 'reward' in the afterlife. Every other alignment almost gets what they wanted in life. What FCII has shown is, why be lawful? And failing that, why be evil?

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
To a chaotic evil person, the Abyss is a great place.

Not for most, you'd generally end up being a mane and tortured for the amusement of those stronger than you.

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Between reading FCII and the Design & Development article on the WotC site, it's interesting that I noticed a mention of the Ronwe. But didn't have any idea what they were till the mention of them being something that didn't make the cut.

Now I could see some of the reasoning why they chose to make something else rather than use the Kocrachon, but really the idea of alien and sadistic torturous beetles is still unsettling concept. They may not fit the traditional idea of what a hellish torturer might look like, but I still like the concept of disturbingly devilish bug surgeons.

Anyways the bar was set really high with FCI as there really wasn't a complaint about that book, other than the stats for the archfiends. But FCII fell short on many expectations. The authors of FCI did a lot to reconcile all of the older material, and add some new aspects. But FCII didn't really do any of that, and came out to be more disappointing, and the book is inconsistent with itself in many places.

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Well, I don't have the new books yet but I'm eagerly awaiting their arrival.

From the sounds of it WotC made a mistake in not getting James Jacobs and Erik Mona to do the second book. That inconsistency is now canon and it might forever mangle the Planescape continuity. Oh well.

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Not for most, you'd generally end up being a mane and tortured for the amusement of those stronger than you.
To a chaotic evil soul the Abyss is a paradise of potential, ready to be harvested, tortured and claimed in their ascent to infinite power. They wouldn't see it as starting small; the path to ultimate power is through their own (and other souls') suffering. No rules, no holds barred, and your might versus everyone else's. That's heaven for a chaotic evil psychopath.

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