There will be a 5e

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Mon, 2012-01-09 10:56

Kobold Avenger

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There will be a 5e

I think that while most people here generally don't care about the changing of editions of D&D, especially when you consider Planescape being as old as 2nd edition, and a lot of things lost in the shuffle from 2e to 3e. There will in fact be a 5th edition of D&D, since 4e was kind of "meh" (I'm talking about story and marketing attitudes rather than "Healing Surges" and so on) even though some things were good ideas, they made a lot of mistakes in the lead up to 4e. This time around they're trying to avoid those mistakes.

I guess you could say that one of the signs that the rift between players of D&D was great, was probably back in the summer when Paizo started doing better than WotC in terms of sales. And likely has more players playing Pathfinder at the moment, since the Essentials series seems to have split 4e fans themselves rather than building up 4e.

Of course the biggest sign that they were planning on a 5e is the fact that Monte Cook is working for WotC again.

I obviously see that there's going to be no difference here. But it will be interesting to see how 5e unfolds, which is about 2 or more years away.

Mon, 2012-01-09 19:49

sciborg2

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Re: There will be a 5e

I am very curious about 5e. I think at this point WotC has a better chance of creating a system that feels like a lighter version of 3.5, with some 4e stuff thrown in...but even the success of that is unclear.

Whatever the system is, it would be good to have an OGL and for PS purposes present the Wheel as a viable option.

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Tue, 2012-01-10 12:52

sciborg2

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Re: There will be a 5e

Got this link from Westeros, Enworlds collection of 5e info and announcements:

http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=dnd5e

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Tue, 2012-01-10 13:31

Wicke

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Re: There will be a 5e

I'm also kinda curious to see how it'll all play out, but I don't think I'm expecting a miracle. On another messageboard I'm on, people were making up wishlists and one thing that came up, that I personally think would be brilliant, would be a cross-edition database of all the monsters that TSR/Wizards has come up with through the years. There would be thousands of nearly ready-made entries (at least for one of the editions). There would be a fair amount of front-end work in getting all the creatures entered and converted between editions, but once you had that, it would be amazing. And I think the payoff in the end would be worth it.

Tue, 2012-01-10 16:23

atomicb

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Re: There will be a 5e

Wicke wrote:

On another messageboard I'm on, people were making up wishlists and one thing that came up, that I personally think would be brilliant, would be a cross-edition database of all the monsters that TSR/Wizards has come up with through the years.

For those who haven't seen it, this site is a useful (if completely unofficial) step in that direction:

http://lomion.de/cmm

Tue, 2012-01-10 23:31

Hyena of Ice

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Re: There will be a 5e

No, the two things that truly hurt 4E is that the Essentials line confused new fans (on the Gamefaqs P&P board we see newbies thinking about getting into the game asking about it vs. the regular stuff all the damn time), angered old fans, and possibly the biggest blow of all-- pulling all their PDFs. Physical copies are great and all, but they wear out.

Wed, 2012-01-11 10:25

sciborg2

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Re: There will be a 5e

Yeah, it is hard to say what crippled 4e the most. I think it was only a matter of time before some company used the OGL to create 3.75. If 3e and 4e were similar enough Paizo would have been SOL.

I think the massive alterations to the Realms, AFAIK a reliable flagship in terms of RPG, CRPG, and novels didn't help.

Was the GSL too restrictive? Possibly so, as suddenly people were faced with a limited product choice.

The PDFs were a huge deal breaker for me at least - I used by a couple every week.

I'm very curious what their plan is. Likely separate parts of the game into different systems, perhaps even to the point of plug-and-play for different aspects of combat.

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Wed, 2012-01-11 11:31

Wicke

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Re: There will be a 5e

Is there any other RPG out there that goes through an entire game mechanics rewrite between editions? I don't follow other games all that closely, but outside of some systems coming out with a d20 compatible version of their game, I can't think of a single one. Usually it's a refinement and tweaking of earlier game mechanics.

Wed, 2012-01-11 20:44

Hyena of Ice

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Re: There will be a 5e

Yeah, you have a point, Sciborg. I think that's another thing that hurt WotC was that once they fired Heinsoo, they were never clear what direction they were planning on taking 4E, and I doubt even they knew. Adding to fan discouragement was watching as WotC fired nearly all their veteran staff (many of whom flocked to Paizo). This caused fans to lose confidence in the company.
The fluff, I don't think, was a significant deal breaker, unfortunately. IIRC the Realms no longer had the following that Eberron was gaining (as far as new blood, anyway).
So I think the main things that hurt WoTC here are:

--The Essentials line and lack of a plan for where they were heading with 4E, the rampant firing of staff, mixed messages, and the overall jumbled mess of a company that WoTC became in '09~10 (probably the primary problem here)
--The Essentials line confused prospective players (again, ties in with the above)
--Completely pulling the PDFs, including those of previous editions (3rd party D20 sales have since skyrocketed) and basically damn near requiring DDI for anything digital

Basically, WoTC jumped the gun in '09 when they couldn't handle the fact that they were no longer monopolizing the sales thanks to Paizo and Pathfinder. However, if WotC hadn't jumped the gun like they did with the Essentials crap, appealing to 3.5 fans, firing Heinsoo, etc., it's possible that Pathfinder wouldn't have taken off like it did. I mean, look at the transition from 2E to 3.0-- it took a lot of people a couple years before they were willing to give 3x a try. If WotC had stayed the course with the Heinsoo version of 4e (which was the best one and worked, BTW), then they'd likely be on top right now. Instead, they caved in to 3x fan demands merely a year after 4E came out, and some of the demands they caved to (the complaints about martial characters using the powers system just like everyone else being the main one that comes to mind) were just plain stupid.

Thu, 2012-01-12 02:45

#10

Kobold Avenger

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Re: There will be a 5e

I certainly think that the essentials killed a lot a lot of 4e's momentum, since it was a case of where they spent a lot of energy to move the game one direction and then they sort of backpedaled a bit.

The GSL was a massive failure, as I really can't think of any appealing 3rd party products using that ruleset. And I think it sent a signal that WotC was run by lawyers.

I'd say that a lot of complaints about the fluff are valid ones too, it does contribute to the feel and the appeal of the game. There's certainly parts of 4e's fluff that I liked such as Feywild, and parts of it's fluff and soft rules I really hated starting with alignment and changes to Succubi and going further from there.

Blowing the Realms is something I don't care about, sure it was amusing for me since I'm a big hater of the Realms. But blowing it up still doesn't make me want to play in the setting that I hate. I didn't like a lot of the whole POL idea of the vaguely defined default campaign world, but at least they acknowledge it's a highly magical setting unlike they might have done in the past.

The videogamey complaint about 4e, many of them are valid about the feel of the game, but not everything from a videogame is a completely bad idea either. I felt that many of the things lacking in 4e was flexibility, as everything was quite standardized and you could never have powers where there were quite a few things open to interpretation (like the many illusion spells). But that was a trend that started in 3e, and just became more apparent in 4e.

Thu, 2012-01-12 04:25

#11

Munin

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Re: There will be a 5e

I went straight from 2nd edition to 3.5. I liked the rules being more streamlined and logical than 2nd edition, and it didnt seam to lose any significant flavour. As 3.5 developed, I became increasingly disheartened by the lack of fluff in the books and I pretty much went off in search of other systems.

I never got into WOW, in fact I really hated that game, so when I heard from gamer friends how much of WOW got implemented into 4e, I decided to steer clear. To this day, the closest I've been to 4e is skimming the contents table of the players handbook. I've heard stories of games and all in all, I live in blissful ignorance.

I probably wont be picking up 5e unless it gets great reviews for ease of use. If I want to run a short adventure, 3.5 works fine and its universally known by the people I play with. Otherwise I'm off the WOTC train, its all gotten too complicated for me, its homebrew and small setting specific systems from here on out.

Tue, 2012-01-17 14:51

#12

elderbrain

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Re: There will be a 5e

The thing that ticks me off is how they (WOTC) start a new edition, then midway in they decide they don't like the current rules, start a new edition (either officially, as with 3.5, or unofficially like with the Essentials material), and basically ditch everyone who had bought the current stuff up to that point. Was 3E really so broken that it was worth alienating its fans to release and promote a semi-incompatable upgrade? Was there any reason to stop making normal 4E material and instead release the Essentials material intended to replace the Player's Handbook, DMG and Monster Manual? Once a given set of rules has been implemented, it should be stuck to throughout the entire life of a given edition, period. Otherwise, it's chaos and confusion for players and DMs alike. Was 3.5 "better" than 3E? Maybe. Did that justify the change? No! When 5E comes out, I have a right and expectation that whatever rules are used in the first 5E book will be the SAME rules used in the last 5E book to be released. Well, that's the end of my rant...

Tue, 2012-01-17 21:40

#13

Hyena of Ice

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Re: There will be a 5e

Usually when they create a new edition, it always has a bunch of bugs that need worked out. 2.0 and 3.0 are good examples of this, and 3.0 had tons of loopholes to exploit (IIRC there was a psionic power that allowed you to inflict like 250 damage if you optimized your character) 2.0 had problems as well, but they weren't nearly as bad.
4E was pretty fine-tuned and didn't really have too many problems. The jump to essentials was WotC panicking that people weren't immediately ditching 3.5 for 4E, and that a lot of people were switching to Pathfinder-- despite the fact that fans dragged their feet when 3.0 came out as well-- for a good two years. Like I said, were it not for jumping the gun with essentials, 4E would likely be way ahead of Pathfinder by now, especially if PDF sales hadn't been pulled, which was an incredibly stupid move IMO.
Another problem apparently is that WotC basically lost interest in DDI about a year ago, so people aren't renewing their subscription for it.

Thu, 2012-01-19 10:57

#14

Kobold Avenger

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Re: There will be a 5e

Pathfinder is succeeding because they're adventure path series and good stories and fluff to go along with their game world. I noticed that there's many things in a lot of the reveals about the next edition, that sound like WotC wants to try going more Paizo's direction in how they handle things.

And the DDI has been mixed lately there's some things that were interesting like the recent article on Glasya which does have some new things about her and a different way of looking into her, and then there's uninteresting stuff like all of this month's articles on Cormyr (which I feel is the most boring region of my least favourite campaign setting). But there's nothing really in there to sell the DDI to anyone, and too much of their earlier efforts was in the importance of that. Even if the articles might be mixed there's still some useful tools, but they should have made things such as the compendium more freely accessible. Though such subscriptions should be of lesser importance to running a game and a product line, in reality it's certainly more of the later, but it's the perception that they needed the DDI to run 4e that may have also damaged it.

The one thing I do hope is that they've learned from these mistakes and put more of an importance on story, have an open license again, and go with open playtesting like they say they're going to do and have that expand to most new player rulesets too.

Thu, 2012-01-19 19:53

#15

elderbrain

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Re: There will be a 5e

Hyena of Ice, I wasn't refering to such changes as simply correcting errata or a "broken" spell or power. Of course there's gonna be misprints and such to fix. What I meant was such apparently abitrary game-rule changes as deciding to kill the "animal" type and put them all under "beast" in 3.5 (which mattered, because 3E rules distinguished between the two types when it came to what creatures you could use an ability on. If you had the 3E books and then bought a 3.5 Monster Manual such as MMIII, you were left wondering which "beasts" to count as "animals" for the purpose of adjudicating spells and such.) There were a lot of changes that just seemed like change for the sake of change, rather than being needed or neccessary. What was wrong with 4E that necessitated the replacement of the core rulebooks with the Essentials line? Why can't they just do things ONE way for the duration of a given edition - would it really kill 'em?

Thu, 2012-01-19 19:59

#16

sciborg2

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Re: There will be a 5e

From a planar perspective, I hope that they keep the Feywild and Shadowfell in development.

There were other good ideas - I really liked the time travel options connecting to the Astral Plane for example.

Really, the Points of Light is a good campaign setting, just not good when you try to present it as the only one.

I'd really like them to do parallel realities for the settings. So Athas goes back to all seven sorcerer kings, Krynn as 5th age as well as no-5th age, and Realms has Spellplague and no Spellplague. The less popular iterations of these settings can have supplements via the DDI.

Personally I think if they do anything PS-related it should be pre-Faction War.

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Thu, 2012-01-19 20:09

#17

Hyena of Ice

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Re: There will be a 5e

What I meant was such apparently abitrary game-rule changes as deciding to kill the "animal" type and put them all under "beast" in 3.5 (which mattered, because 3E rules distinguished between the two types when it came to what creatures you could use an ability on.
No, it's the beast type that was changed to Animal and Magical Beast. Personally, I prefer the elimination of the Beast type.

Mon, 2012-01-23 17:41

#18

elderbrain

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Re: There will be a 5e

Ah, yes, you're right of course.

Thu, 2012-04-19 16:22

#19

elderbrain

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Re: There will be a 5e

Is there any truth to the rumor that 5E will revert back to the Great Wheel Cosmology? (as, no doubt, many here hope...)

Tue, 2012-04-24 09:31

#20

Kobold Avenger

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Re: There will be a 5e

elderbrain wrote:

Is there any truth to the rumor that 5E will revert back to the Great Wheel Cosmology? (as, no doubt, many here hope...)

A bunch of the 5e team wants to have it back, but there's no details what they're going to do to the "story" parts of D&D in the new edition. I know they've at least stated somewhere there's 9 alignments again, as one of my least favourite things about 4e was the removal of 4 alignments.

Tue, 2012-04-24 16:35

#21

Jenx

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Re: There will be a 5e

To be perfectly honest, I think removing just 4 was not enough. They should have just cut off the entire thing.

I dunno, sometimes I think loving the Great Wheel, and at the same time despising the Alignment is part of being a Planescape fan.

Wed, 2012-04-25 15:38

#22

sciborg2

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Re: There will be a 5e

Monte quits 5e:

http://montecook.livejournal.com/251404.html

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Thu, 2012-04-26 12:18

#23

Harold Coales

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Re: There will be a 5e

I must admit, those news made me slightly less interested in 5ed (or D&D Next as some call it)...

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Thu, 2012-04-26 15:22

#24

sciborg2

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Re: There will be a 5e

I'm not overly worried, I even sorta expected this to happen.

For me, it'll probably be years before I try to learn 5e if ever. I'm just curious about the cosmology they'll put in.

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Thu, 2012-04-26 23:24

#25

Hyena of Ice

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Re: There will be a 5e

As 3.5 developed, I became increasingly disheartened by the lack of fluff in the books and I pretty much went off in search of other systems.
The splatbooks are full of fluff-- Tome of Magic, the two Fiendish Codices, 3.5 Drow of the Underdark, Lords of Madness, and Elder Evils, especially-- those books are absolutely overflowing with interesting fluff. You missed out, man.

A pity Monte Cook quit. I think he was completely wrong for the 5e mechanics, as Rob Heinsoo IMO fixed most of the problems present in previous editions *3x especially* where warrior-types, Fighters in particular, are useless compared to full magic users at higher levels (or all levels if you optimize), and it sounded like Monte Cook wanted to regress to a lot of the 3x mechanics, including the class-based ones. However, he is without a doubt one of the best employees to ever grace the D&D staff when it comes to the fluff.

Fri, 2012-04-27 10:03

#26

Kobold Avenger

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Re: There will be a 5e

Out of the 5e team, it seems like Mike Mearls is very much about BD&D and 1e, and Rob Schwalb is very much about older editions though I only seem to remember him working on 4e.

I'll probably get the core products of 5e right away, I've done that with every edition since 3e. Switching though may be another thing, based on who I play with.

Wed, 2012-05-02 09:53

#27

sciborg2

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Re: There will be a 5e

Some history...which, quite frankly, makes their "mock-the-old" strategy seemed even more ham fisted, childish, and utterly stupid:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/news/315975-wizards-coast-dungeons-dragons-...

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Wed, 2012-08-01 01:10

#28

Kobold Avenger

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Re: There will be a 5e

elderbrain wrote:

Is there any truth to the rumor that 5E will revert back to the Great Wheel Cosmology? (as, no doubt, many here hope...)

There seems to be more truth to the rumour that the Great Wheel will be back for 5e, this month's Dragon editorial is again them claiming they'll have something for everyone, this time extending to the cosmology.

I think the article is non-subscriber. But they do specifically mention the Great Wheel's inner and outer planes being part of the 5e cosmology, which is something we all want to hear, along with Feywild and Shadowfell also being part of the 5e cosmology, which is also fine by me.

Wed, 2012-08-01 09:25

#29

sciborg2

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Re: There will be a 5e

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dred/2012August

Damn I wish they sold individual issues, this one has Ruskin the Incantifier and Modrons!

=-=-=

relevant bit:

"D&D is not truly D&D without the Great Wheel,
but for many players and DMs, the 4th Edition cosmology
is their preferred “take” on the planes. We
also have campaign settings with cosmological needs
of their own. Our goal with D&D Next is to present a
planar toolbox that allows us to borrow or assemble
whatever cosmological elements suit our needs, and
yours as well. You’ll see lots of references to the inner
and outer planes of the Great Wheel, as well as references
to planar reflections of the natural world,
namely the Feywild and the Shadowfell. But our
underlying goal is to let the campaign setting determine
the cosmology, be it one of yours or one of ours.
What will your next campaign cosmology look like?
I’m betting it’ll look nothing like mine, and that’s no
catastrophe."

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Wed, 2012-08-01 09:42

#30

Veltharis ap Rylix

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Re: There will be a 5e

I am wanting to resub to D&D Insider so badly right now... >_<

In addition to the Modrons, Alluvius Ruskin, and Faction-based themes, to say nothing of Shemmy himself co-writing an article on Shemmy herself, I've recently been deeply intrigued by the relationship between Graz'zt and Iggwilv.

Why u do this to me, WotC?

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Wed, 2012-08-01 09:39

#31

sciborg2

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Re: There will be a 5e

I've thought about it, and I've decided to take credit for this based on my request for a toolbox cosmology many moons ago. ;-P

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Wed, 2012-08-01 18:11

#32

Shemeska the Ma...

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Re: There will be a 5e

I won't get to see it till probably after subscribers, since I've never had a DDI subscription. That'll probably change if 5e has material from the Great Wheel in its original context.

But kudos to Brian James for asking to bring me on board for that piece that we wrote together that'll be out later this month. Also, quite a lot got cut in a rewrite since some editorial preferences and focus on pieces changed from between when we originally submitted it and very recently on the rewrite, but it's possible that I might post up some of the cut material (that's very different) from the original if I can.

That said, given Chris Perkins' editorial, having multiple cosmologies I adore to pitch material for (Great Beyond and Great Wheel), oh such a problem to have!

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