Is there something that keeps technology in check within the setting?

Yes, but it has nothing to do with a change to the laws of physics. The gods literally force smokepowder and gunpowder to not function within the crystal sphere, but only those two specific substances and other replacements that could be used in their place in firearms. Those that worship Murlynd are an exception. And other similar devices, like the laser guns captured from the spaceship wreckage in the Barrier Peaks, work just fine.

Still, there are crystal spheres like Truespace where the laws of physics are different, so your point does still hold.

I figure that the 'planars look down on Primes' thing exists in part just to keep the Planescape setting as distinct from any of the Prime settings as possible. Similar to the fact that planar characters and beings feel very uncomfortable anytime they're in the phlogiston in the Spelljammer setting.

The Incursion. Though that doesn't actually require Planescape, just some knowledge of githyanki and the Astral Plane.

There are lots of opportunities for planar involvement in Prime worlds, though, as well as some examples (such the githyanki attempt to colonize Athas in the far past). Blood War spillover into the Prime is another possibility.

That's true, and I suppose I was being silly in saying nothing on the planes would affect the Prime. I guess more what I was thinking, in hindsight, is that Sigil doesn't have much effect on the Prime. I just didn't look at what I was thinking well enough to express it well. Thinking more on it, I think that mostly I'm agreeing with Jem there, that the anti-Prime views in Sigil are oddly provincial for a city that's supposed to be so cosmopolitan.

Thinking more on it, I think that mostly I'm agreeing with Jem there, that the anti-Prime views in Sigil are oddly provincial for a city that's supposed to be so cosmopolitan.
Not at all. I recall now that the primary reason for condescension of Primes is that new planewalkers tend to be extremely ignorant of how things work on the planes. For instance, they see a succubus and think she's some weak damsel they can have sex with, when in reality she's likely to subject them to a fatal dose of BDSM. Or they'll come to Sigil without some means of leaving. Or they'll make the mistake of referring to a Slaad as a frog (likely considered a derogatory term), or they'll be dumb enough to try and pick pockets without realizing that the Harmonium are watching them.
Or they're from Dragonspace and assume that their steel pieces are worth jack on Sigil, and start marvelling over all the steel structures in the place.
Part of this is also arrogance of course-- many Sigilians view all other cities of the planes as "just some Berg", and view the non-planewalking natives THERE as ignoramuses. (hence the derogatory term I created for Sigilians as 'Sig'-- which in the Inner Planes is usually combined with a local profanity or blasphemy *generally a word associated with the opposite element-- Outer planar languages are much more complicated, due to the evolution from Dark Speech, True Creation, and the lawful and chaotic equivalents-- similar to English's evolution from Norse, Saxon, etc.*)

Sigil probably is one of the largest metropoli anywhere short of Dis or the Great Mazework

I thought it was the largest one. Also, the problem with Prime traffic, as mentioned above, is that you always end up with a fair share of "Green Primes" who came to Sigil physically and academically unprepared.

Those examples are a little weak, though. I think a big part of the disdain for primers is that they come to the Planes, a big person on their one tiny world, and think that makes them someone big in Sigil and the multiverse. But they get a thousand heroes of legend from planet Y running through there every day, berk.

It would be like this: You are a big man in your home town; all the girls love you, all the boys want to be you. You are treated like a prince because you are a sports star, or somesuch thing, and everybody knows you're something special. Then you move into a metropolitan city like New York and you expect everyone to think you're hot stuff ... but chances are none of the people there have even heard of your little town, couldn't care less if you were allstar quarterback for your team, and find your cocky posing rather absurd ... you may have been big in Smalltown Nowhere, but now you're a fish out of water. (now, instead of New York, change that to Tokyo and you're a small town westerner)

That's how Cagers -and most Planers in general - see Primes. Sure they are huge names in their one, poorly known world, but now they're in a much bigger fishbowl and everyone who lives out here is used to dealing with stuff on a far grander magnitude. Those elementals you summon to fight for you on your Prime? Yeah, I've been to the elemental planes, talked to the unmoving philosphers of stone, shopped and adventured in the City of Brass in the Elemental Plane of fire. Those undead you butcher on your world? I've talked magical theory with a Lich, traversed the horrifying boundaries of the Negative Energy plane, and only escaped because I carry a piece of pure creation in my pocket.

In Sigil even your average bartender has had to negotiate prices for a meal with a Baatezu, break up a fight between a Githyanki and a Githzerai, throw down his anti-magic shield to deal with a drunken archmage, and chastise his vampiric waitress for sipping on the clientele. The BIG BAD STUFF that most adventurers spend their lives fighting or avoiding is part of everyday life for a Cager, and they only survive if they're smart enough, clever enough, confident enough, and know how to play that Multiversal game of Poker Kenny Rogers sings about. (Gotta know when to hold em, fold em, walk away and run)

Cagers are cocky compared to even other Planer travelers, because they live in the single most cosmopolitan city in the Multiverse; and you can't get by there just on your charm and fishing stories. Hell, I've seen - in a game - a player go from being a 9th level fighter to a homeless man fighting with bums, and losing, because he got rolled in the Hive and had no way to dig himself back out. And stuff like that happens to Clueless every day. In my depiction of the setting, Sigil has a near mythical reputation even in the other bergs of the great ring and everywhere inbetween ... to the point where half its reputation is just rumor and hyperbole, but most people are a little more respectful, and a little more frightened of people who call the Cage their kip. (had a great scene in one game where the party defused a potential fight with a group of swaggering mercs simply by telling them they wanted to get back home - to Sigil. Thing is, they *could* have mopped the floor with those mercs, too, and the players took pride in the fact that they actually lived in the City of Doors.)

Most of the low level people you see in Sigil are going to be born on the planes and have been taught how to behave and survive there; the vast majority of them will be members of factions or sects and have a working idea of how to relate to their environment. If you grew up in Tokyo, you are going to be significantly more informed on how to behave and survive in Tokyo than some tourist from Oregon. In fact, if you've ever lived in a tourist town you'll realize how irritating the "clueless" behavior of these people can be ... and that's just visitors from out of state or - more dramatically - another nation. Imagine how significantly worse that would be when dealing with tourists from another world.

Clueless are wandering around, gawking at everything, misusing local terminology, going to areas they aren't welcome, asking the most basic questions - that to you are common, remedial knowledge, and so forth. No, not every single clueless is going to fall into these categories ... some people are more savvy about travel etiquette, but those aren't the most common people, so they aren't setting the groundwork from which the stereotypes are formed. Stereotypes exist for a reason, even when there are exceptions. (typically because they are the loudest and most recognizable) And let's face it, as much as we Planescape players and game masters know about Sigil, we'd still be gawking idiots if we suddenly ended up there.

It's going to be a rare thing to have a party of low level primes stumbling into the Planes. Can it happen? Sure ... and these people make up a large portion of the business done by the morgue, the Gatehouse, and filling the gutters of the hive until they are eaten by something. The very clever will manage to survive and thrive, but by that time they're not clueless anymore.

One does not remain clueless forever ... though Cagers like to say, "either you're a cager or your not", that doesn't mean the fact you originated on some Prime means you'll always be a berk. Bigby was probably clueless when he stumbled into the Planes, too, but he was powerful enough not to be swallowed up by them while he learned the ropes. I'm guessing you could find some greybeard with stories about Bigby angering some Baatezu, being chased down by Hard Heads and trying to convince some Bleakers things aren't as bad as they seem. The same goes for Darkwood, who also found himself a place in a Faction, which is often the first step in curing yourself of being clueless. But I guarantee you neither of those people look at the universe the way they did when the stepped off their Prime worlds. They are always going to be attached to their Prime in some way, and may never get over the misconception that it is more important than it really is ... but that is a personal bias born from an circumstance of birth. But in the scheme of the multiverse Oerth is no more important than Krynn or Earth, or anything else.

Coming to the planes is, typically, a much more unlikely event for the average person than moving from their small town into the big city ... and many people never accomplish even that! Hell, most adventurers already have an overblown opinion of themselves - no matter if they've saved a few towns or an entire continent - just ready to be squashed the second they step into the planes.

You step through that portal and suddenly most of what you thought you knew was wrong ... you might be a professor in your world, but suddenly you know less about the multiverse than a child raised in Sigil. The bad rep comes from the people who can't come to terms with that.

And again, Sauron, Voldemort, they're still stuck trying to take over their own worlds - and compete with the forces fighting against them there - and when they're done they are, what - in the scheme of things? They're the equivalents of the "Grand overlord of Shelbyville". Elsewhere a group of adventurers has just stopped (or initiated) a shift of belief that would influence thousands of Prime material worlds. Planers simple tend to play more dangerous games with higher stakes. (and, seriously, Voldemort is - what - effectively an 18th level mage? Impressive, sure, but on the Planes that isn't what it is in London.)

First - YPMV?

The technology question reminded me of something from the novel Prospero Lost - that science works not because the world really works like that, but Prospero created a system of alliances with all the spirits of the world to make the world run in a way to allow for technology to advance.

Similar spirits in the D&D worlds likely aren't interested in doing anything of the sort, and we see in Eberron that they had to be tasked if not enslaved to do so.

Regarding clueless, I think that planars coming from the outlying, non-cosmopolitan areas of their planes are at a much bigger disadvantage than primes. Imagine coming from Elyisum to Sigil - even if you are aware, theoretically, of how things really work it must be jarring to realize these jerks are getting where they want to go because the rules of the Traveler's Way don't apply.

I also think people coming from Oerth would have a better sense of the planes than other prime worlds, I think the prime world you come from should determine how planars react to you. Some worlds should have resonance on the planes, I think in one of his novels Gygax noted Oerth was a magical nexus or energy resevoir of some sort.

Really, it depends on the characters of Sigil itself. I'd rather have a more mixed reaction than planars dismissing primes as clueless, but admittedly it can be fun sometimes to do so.

I think even if elementals were willing to aid mortals create technology, the Multiverse simply doesn't work the way our reality does. What is lightning but a by-product of air+positive? Fire is a chemical reaction in our reality, in the Multiverse it is one of the foundations of reality. Darkness can be real, a material thing in D&D as opposed to the absence of light.

I think that one can use rationality and the scientific method to make advancements, but they will resemble something along the lines of Eberron rather than the products of our world.

All that said, I would love to see ideas for high-tech but different enough from our world that seeing their presence doesn't break my personal suspension of disbelief.

And Monte Cook did that whole Chaos Tech supplement, which fits quite well into the "strange technologies" theme.

"Your Planescape May Vary"; "Your Greyhawk May Vary" was a pretty common comment on the Greytalk mailing list when this sort of disagreement came up.

This is basically how I feel on the issue. I mean, so many of the examples that have come up so far, I literally have no idea how even starting adventurers could be so stupid as to do them, in Planescape or otherwise.

I mean, have you guys defending Clueless as being a reasonable term instead of a stereotype seriously been in campaigns where one of the PCs would go up and start attacking a fiend walking down the street when literally no one else on the street even reacted to them? Or where they would go up to some random woman and start molesting her in public just because she's wearing Drow priestess-wear? Coming to Sigil without a way out is a mistake anyone can make, Prime or not. Being misled by a succubus is what succubi do, and planars can be victims just as much as anyone. (In canon even, look at Harbinger House. This wasn't some Prime, this was a major high-up in the Believers of the Source in charge of one of their most important facilities and entrusted with one of their major artifacts, and a succubus still tricked him.) Even calling a slaad a frog, I don't even know if that's a mistake a planar not familiar with Limbo wouldn't make, even a Sigilian.

I know I'm arguing anecdote vs. anecdote here, but all the examples that have come up so far (except steel pieces from Krynn, I'll grant you that one) fall into one of two categories for me: anyone could do it, Prime or not, or it wouldn't actually happen, even from a Prime. And I'm saying that from my own experience in D&D, not even characters I've played but rather characters I've played with, either as DM or as a player myself.

I just cannot agree with this assumption that Sigilians are right, and I never even considered that that was the intended interpretation of Planescape stuff. The existence of Cirily's sect was just more evidence to me that the Clueless stuff was never intended to be acceptable or correct, just the arrogance of Sigilians that, for all their talk about being so knowledgeable about the planes, completely forget about Center of All. (In fact, if you look through the material, you'll see Rule of Threes and Unity of Rings brought up way more often than Center of All, especially in Sigil-based stuff; almost as if they don't want to acknowledge it as a philosophical underpinning because it would point against Sigil's importance.)

Some more evidence to me: a lot of them point to how some Primes don't get how the planes are really put together. Some examples are pretty silly, yes, like Krynnish thinking everywhere is the Abyss. But others are subtler issues like the arrangement of the planes; metaphysical questions, basically. And yet every time some Sigilian mentions a greybeard's metaphysical theory (for example, the old arrangement of the Inner Planes in the Wavefire entry in PSMCIII), they dismiss it out of hand because greybeards don't know what they're talking about. They simultaneously dismiss both Primes and intellectuals for saying things that disagree with their own personally-held common knowledge, without having any care about if the common knowledge is correct or not. It just so happens that Primes probably are wrong, but all the evidence points to Sigilians not caring about that part. They just care that the Primes are disagreeing with them.

I do have to mention one other thing too:

Yes, they do exist for a reason. To otherize a group of outsiders. Not necessarily purposefully, or even consciously, but stereotypes are universally only to allow you to set your group apart from another group as better than they are. The same is true for stereotypes in real life, it's people blowing a minor set of events noticed through the filter of confirmation bias out of proportion and applying it to a wide mass, assuming it applies to everyone because the people it doesn't applied to aren't as prominent to the person watching them. Stereotypes exist essentially because the human brain is a pattern-finding engine, it looks for patterns even where none exist, and when these stereotypes emerge from it, they allow people to treat outsiders as a large mass rather than a collection of individuals in order to make it easier to ostracize or belittle them.

I'm certainly not accusing anyone here of that, of course, since in the end we're just talking about fictional characters in a game. But Jack, it sounds like you're from a tourist town yourself (I might be wrong about that). How do you know the majority of tourists act the way you describe? I mean, you wouldn't even be able to recognize the tourists that don't act the way you're describing, because since they don't act the way you're describing, they wouldn't stand out as tourists. You can't have any sense as to what proportion of tourists act that way without holding some kind of survey to figure out who is and who isn't, all you can do is identify people that act the way you're describing. That makes this the sort of statement that can easily fall to confirmation bias. And confirmation bias is a tenacious thing that is so subtle it almost becomes unnoticeable, and it's really easy to succumb to it. It's like the mental equivalent of a blind spot, the brain just paints right over it unless you go out of your way to force it into appearance.

(I really hope you don't take that personally, Jack, because I don't intend that at all. We're just having a neat debate about RP funtimes, that's all. I was wary about even using what you said as an example, but it seemed so illustrative of what I meant that I couldn't help it. If I did offend you with bringing that out in particular, I definitely apologize for it.)

It's possible that that's what happens in Sigil too, of course. There's a small percentage of Primes that do make excrutiatingly stupid mistakes when they arrive in Sigil. These are the Primes that get recognized, because the Primes that don't make those mistakes aren't identified as Prime unless they announce themselves as such. So everyone assumes all Primes act stupid. And when a Sigilian meets a Prime that doesn't act that way, they must simply be "one of the good ones".

Actually, I think the three precepts were in the PSCS, though I could be wrong on that, yeah. But I'm pretty sure I remember reading them even in the first box set.

And I think in the end, it looks like we aren't that far apart in how we see things, it's just a question of scale. Something I think we can settle on agreeing to disagree, really. I can see more where you're coming from now, yeah, and I can see that kind of stuff definitely. I think it's just that most of the examples even in the book really do have them as being as exaggerated as some of the examples upthread, which always rankled me. Then again, most of the books are usually from a Sigilian perspective, which could explain it.

...You know, that actually gives me an idea. A Planescape book or module or something, in-character same as so many other books, but from a Prime perspective. That could be a really interesting piece, I think.

Edit: Oh! Even better! A Spelljammer book or module, in-character, written for planars that are heading to the Prime for some Spelljamming. I've always loved the idea of there being some sort of feud between planewalkers and spelljammers, and seeing the tables turned like that could be hilarious and awesome.

I like the idea of a Prime perspective on the planes, as well as the spelljammer guide for planars.

I think the idea, originally, was to emulate the tourist town where locals look down on yokels. What I think kind of got missed a lot of times were the number of powerful primes - especially the planet of Ortho.

Perhaps the books should have been more explicit, but PCs should over time overcome the prejudice of the planes even as they take in the vastness of them in relation to their home world.

I think the usual relative insignificance of a single Prime is more realistic than the idea that infinite (or even light year spanning) planes exist with focus around a single mortal world.

BUT I think there can be some worlds that have importance on the planes, as Oerth obviously does. I think D&D players seem to like the spotlight, which is understandable. Call of Cthullu is really more for the insignificance of mortal life.

double post : <