The validity of Torment

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Fidrikon's picture
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The validity of Torment

I've been wondering this for a while now, how much of Torment exists in cannon planescape?

For example:
Does the buried village really exist?( the same applies to the weeping stone catacombs)
Are the dead nations cannon?
And what about Many-as-One? Is it just a reworked, nastier version of The US?

And what about the whole selling criminals as slaves thing? ( aka: the trist quest) Does that really go on in Sigil?

I had though that the Smoldering Corpse bar wasn't cannon, but then I keep hearing about the storyteller there.

And what abould the Brothel of Slaking Intelectual Lusts?
And Is Vriska the Importer just a rip off of Akin's shop?

I realized that in all liklyhood, most of these are not cannon. I would just like to know whats considered real and whats not.

ceratus's picture
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The validity of Torment

I'm pretty sure most of what you mentioned isn't canon. I'm not too sure about selling criminals as slaves (I think that debtors get 10 years forced labour, or something similar, rather than becoming slaves). I always assumed that Many-as-one was the big rogue cranium rat swarm.
Of course, a good deal of Torment is canon (Fell's tatoo parlour and Lothar the skull guy to name a few).

Fell's picture
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Re: The validity of Torment

I think this is something best left for the DM to decide completely.

Having said that -

"Fidrikon" wrote:
Does the buried village really exist?( the same applies to the weeping stone catacombs)
They exist in my setting. In fact that featured prominently in my previous campaign.

jordarad's picture
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The validity of Torment

Some was cannon, some was cannon fodder, I'm with Fell on this one. In the end, it's all up to the DM and rule #0.

Kaelyn's picture
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Re: The validity of Torment

"Fidrikon" wrote:
I've been wondering this for a while now, how much of Torment exists in cannon[sic] planescape?

How do you define what's canonical or not now, six years after the setting was cancelled? The company that owns Planescape isn't keeping track. The whole idea of worrying about what is or isn't canon seems slightly silly at this point.

I don't think any of the new Black Isle material will appear in any of Planewalker's official products, though, if only because Wizards of the Coast doesn't own it.

I think everything in Torment deserves to be considered canon.

Quote:
And what about Many-as-One? Is it just a reworked, nastier version of The US?

There's probably more than one rogue cranium rat swarm.

Quote:
And Is Vriska the Importer just a rip off of Akin's shop?

There's certainly room for more than one magic item shop in the Cage, and probably more than a thousand. If they had wanted to use A'kin they could have.

bonemage's picture
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The validity of Torment

Well you can look at the second edition products and find out which ones are in the Video game and which ones aren't which is a pretty good start I would think for finding cannon settings. I mean cannon is kinda fluid like you pointed out I think with the setting "being dead" but I think there can be some general agreement on what is cannon or not.

Obviously in any campaign you run cannon is what the DM running the game makes it

Laughing out loud

Narfi Ref's picture
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The validity of Torment

The discussion of what is and what is not canon is important, 'though. Given that Planewalker has been given the task of continuing Planescape, and we have the oportunity to create officially sanctioned material (weather an individual piece is accepted or not), we should know these things in case we would like to tie them into a work of ours for the site.

Krypter's picture
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The validity of Torment

It's my understanding that the Planescape Campaign Setting (3rd edition) team does not consider Torment to be canon material, and since WotC does not hold the intellectual property rights they do not have the authority to use that content. It won't become part of any official Planewalker releases.

That said, however, both the designer and publisher of PS: Torment have gone bankrupt and are in no position to enforce those rights. They may in fact have reverted back to WotC (since the IP was leased from them, not in perpetuity). Also, unenforced IP can become public domain, though that's rare. Still, there may be creditors of Black Isle who could lay claim to Torment in some fashion. I am not a lawyer.

Nothing stopping you from using it in a submission to Planewalker though. I love Torment and it would be great to see some new material for it.

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The validity of Torment

There is hope: karach is statted in Chapter 6. This was invented in Torment (not being a part of the original Planescape Campaign Setting) and so its use in a planewalker product signifies a recognition of that game's amazing-ness and a willingness to incorporate it into this site's setting.

I also hereby plug the Zerth Prestige Class that Mephit James and I created (located in the Rrakkma section--check my sig). It was based on Dak'kon and makes use of the Circle of Zerthimon. Although it is undergoing revision behind the scenes.

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The validity of Torment

Speaking of Tourment I am glad to see thats its selling for around 10-15 dollars on ebay these days I may finally get around to playing it. Hmm I wonder if I will ever go back and beat the Baldars gate game I still have sitting around....

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The validity of Torment

"Rhys" wrote:
There is hope: karach is statted in Chapter 6. This was invented in Torment (not being a part of the original Planescape Campaign Setting)

It actually was, though it wasn't very prominent. In the original Planescape boxed set, page 51 of the Sigil and Beyond book mentions it.

"Karach, a transmuting metal used in making magical items, is smelted from the chaos stuff that leaks through the ever-changing gate to Limbo. Only the most dedicated smiths can force the stuff to remain stable, so the smelters and workshops of these craftsmen are usually unchanged from visit to visit."

Also see Uncaged: Faces of Sigil, page 124.

The metal wasn't very well defined, though, until Torment. There wasn't anything about the githzerai using it to make swords, or any connection to the zerths, or what it might be good for.

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Re: The validity of Torment

"Fidrikon" wrote:
Are the dead nations cannon?
Its been so long since I've played through Torment completely so...

What were these again?

Narfi Ref's picture
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The validity of Torment

Dak'kon, the old Githzerai Fighter/Mage, a Zerth, had a Karach blade whose abilities enchanced throughout the game depending on his level and his faith in himself and the teachings of Zerthimon.

Companero's picture
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The validity of Torment

Quote:
Fidrikon wrote: Are the dead nations cannon?

Its been so long since I've played through Torment completely so...

What were these again?

The undead city under the hive that you have to pass through to get to the tomb - with the skeleton priest, the ghoul queen, the zombies, etc + a dustman/wererat spy...

Krypter's picture
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The validity of Torment

The Drowned Nations, the Weeping Stone Catacombs and the Dead Nations were the coolest locations I've ever seen in a fantasy CRPG. So much atmosphere and really creepy art design. I love underground stuff like that. Too bad it was such a small area.

Funny, apart from the Twelve Factols Inn I can't recall much being said about Undersigil. It was mostly fleshed out in Torment. I guess the PS designers were shying away from dungeon-type environments.

Kaelyn's picture
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Re: The validity of Torment

"Fidrikon" wrote:
And what about the whole selling criminals as slaves thing? ( aka: the trist quest) Does that really go on in Sigil?

I searched my In the Cage .pdf for the word "slave," and it turned up inconclusive. Sigil definitely has legal slavery:

(page 21)"Death on the gallows has a hundred names: the
Leafless Tree, the Rope, the Last Dance. . . . By and
large, hanging is reserved for deserters, embezzlers,
murderers, and escaped slaves."

(page 30)"Shemeshka is involved in a number of
tolerated businesses, from the sale of potions of Styx-
water in the Great Bazaar to usury, to slave-trade, to
the ownership of a string of festhalls featuring denizens
of Baator."

(page 59)"THE WHITE CASKET
This is a faction gathering ground for the Dustmen,
who often line up for a drink beside the undead, mostly
zombie servants and the occasional enslaved ghoul."

(PAGE 106)"Some buildings [in the Hive] have a series of Xs and Os etched in the doors. These symbols, called house marks, usu-
ally indicate that the occupants are engaged in some
kind of cross-trade, like gambling or slave trading."

(page 114)"A shady gambling den, with no
restrictions on the size or type of bets; wagers
include gems, magical items, and slaves."

All this seems to show that while slavery is legal in Sigil, there is also illegal or only semilegal slavery - maybe that just means slaves sold without paying taxes on them, maybe it means abducting orphans off the streets and selling them instead of buying them from licensed slave traders. Or maybe the only legal slavery is the enslavement of debtors, like in Torment.

NotNowKato's picture
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Thumbsup 4 Torment !

I 1st touched on Planescape whilst DMing AD&D, some years back & accustomed myself with a few of the Cutters & Sites, layed out in the Guide to Sigil handbook. Some time later I bought a novel called Torment - read it, then bought the game. After hammering the game until it begged me to stop - I found that much of the interaction, laws & gameplay, mirrored, as best it could with the BioWare they had at the time & found that it gave me a greater insight in the world of Planescape, how it worked - albeit simplistically, & after was able to run the complexity of the Planes with an easier reference.
Much of the Sites, Burgs & Cutters are represented in the Sigil/Cage Guide, but as we all know the DM is God & therefore takes as much or little of that as reference, I found it extremely useful.

Gremmith Mi's picture
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The validity of Torment

The only other place I can recall that noted locations in UnderSigil is Faction War, with the catacombs under the Golden Lord's houses, the Temple full of 'loths and that darker village...

Oh, and Nowhere, but that doesn't count.

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