The Titans' Alignments

Edited:

Jem, all very good points. The Greeks themselves were, if anything, Lawful, and the Romans that eventually inherited their gods were even more so. The gods, it could be argues, were not, but that raises its own set of questions. In real world history, the Greeks lost a lost of faith in their gods after the brutal Peloponnesian War and plague, which it could be said made them more chaotic. Still, that's a stretch.

As for the Beastlands, it seems to me that the planes consider nature as the ultimate Good, as both Elysium and the Beastlands are very nature oriented, as is Shurrock (Bytopia). If anything, I would think it should be Neutral (as druids, in that it applies equally to all) or chaotic (in that it does not follow any manmade laws). The Beastlands' location has confused me on more than one occasion.

A couple of counterpoints to your proposed relocation of the planes:
Firstly, Arboreais not just the domain of the Olympians but also the Elves and Eladrin, both as Chaotic as they are Good. Secondly, making Ysgard any more Good than it is is tentative, because not only does it have a large population of evil giants and dark elves, but it is also so preoccupied with combat, which regardless of the heroism involved is still too much senseless violence to be truly Good.

I would just switch Beastlands with Arborea. But, I didn't design the planes and it's too late to change it now. Rather, I just try to justify it being the way it is, and that means finding a definition of Good. Why is Elysium and Beastlands, both nature oriented, so close to the ultimate Good? After all, they're not all friendly nature like the Happy Little Elf.

I've always seen the Beastlands as being the ultimate counterpoint to Gehenna. Gehenna follows laws akin to nature, but everything has been corrupted and altered to cause pain and suffering. Massive volcanoes, no flat land, and even the snow is acidic. Gehenna is inhabited by few animals, and the ones that do live there are those few that can survive the utterly inhospitable environment. The plane embodies everything that is cruel and painfull about nature.

By contrast, the Beastlands are a literal paradise where tigers and deer live together in perfect harmony (at least they do in Ehlona's realm). It is the Plane of the beauty of animalism and harmony in the natural world. Make no mistake though, it is just as unnatural as Gehenna. While Gehenna represents everything that is bad about nature, the Beastlands represent everything that is good. Neither side has anything much to do with the reality of nature, however.

For this reason, I say that the Beastlands should stay exactly where they are, because it really isn't the plane of nature, but the plane of goodness in nature. In fact, the plane of nature is the Prime Material, and the closest Outer Plane to that ideal is the Outlands.

As for it being redundant for Elysium to also be a plane of nature, it's not. Elysium represents man being in total harmony with his environment. Most people feal most at peace in natural settings, so the plane is mostly natural settings. It's as simple as that.

Regarding the chaoticness of Arborea and the Greek gods; it has of course already been said that Arborea is full of a variety of chaotic entities that firmly place it in on the side of chaos. For the Greek gods; the degree of their chaoticness depends on what period of Greed history you are looking at because of course as Greek culture changed they reevaluated their myths. But since the Olympian pantheon is mostly derived from Homeric and earlier myths I think we should focus on these to get an idea of the behavior of the gods.

In my eyes harmony is not a sign of good but rather of law (if this were not the case, Mechanus would be the plane of absolute good); and by extension, conflict and plurality is a sign of chaos. Since the Greek gods were frequently in conflict with each other, fickle, impulsive, and had their own personal agendas despite fealty to Zeus; they are firmly on the side of chaos. The lawful Greek gods were the exception.

While the Aesir didn't fight much among themselves (except with Loki since he led to the death of Balder) I cannot think of a real world "pantheon" that typifies chaos more than they do (Celtic culture arguably celebrated "chaos" more than the Norns did, but their gods were not particularly chaotic and in reality they lacked any coherent pantheon). Consider the world view typified by Ysgard as it is a creation of Nordic culture: the celebration of continuous conflict and turmoil that serves no larger purpose mixed with the celebration of the accomplishments of individuals.

I know. I'm just trying to promote discussion to explain, in D&D terms, the real world religions upon which the Planescape pantheons are based. I realize very well that there are far more numerous and complex factors forming the basis behind real world religions than anything that could viably be incorporated into a game.

Really, what it all boils down to is the quintessence and definition of the alignments within D&D (which obviously does not exist in the real world). That's what makes Planescape so fun... not only do you go to dungeons and kill stuff but you get to have philosophical debates concerning ethics and morality and how they affect people's lives when they can physically come and affect them. Naturally the alignments as they stand are not perfect. Two people rarely agree on true Good, for example, and because of that the planes become complex places rather than pure concepts.

There seem to be a fair number of players who prefer their Planescape light on the alignment tags. And, of course, people who prefer to ditch the heavy morality and have a game where good and evil are supernaturally clear-cut. Makes it a lot easier to play a blade-happy paladin. ;^)

Personally, I prefer to think of alignment as a guideline: sages have noticed that, in an entirely reasonable fashion, planes with similar sorts of moralities can be found near each other on the Great Ring. The berks who prefer logic and social order tend to hang out over that side of the Spire, while the bashers that prefer personal freedom and gut instinct hang out on that side. Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, and Neutrality were the labels that got stuck to them.

Sure, the nicer afterlives seem to be over thattaway and the ones their priests call hells are all over thattaway, but the Teardrop Palace isn't exactly a hovel, and there's a certain kind of cutter that gets a thrill out of playing at intrigue in a level you can't get anywhere outside of Maladomini, and the yugoloths, well, they're just obsessed with knowledge above morality. So if I call one up and inquire about the secrets of creation, it's not an evil act, is it, anymore than euthanizing a lab rat...

(One important factor in my concern with alignment is I prefer GURPS as a system. Detect Evil is more likely to be, say, Detect (list of mental Disadvantages like Callous, Bully, Sadism, etc.); an artifact that reacts badly to lawful characters will flare up at the touch of, say, someone with Hidebound, Digital Mind, or No Sense of Humor. )