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The question

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Mon, 2005-02-07 16:04
#1
Bob the Efreet
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The question

I've finally been playing Torment... *pauses to allow the outrage and mockery to die down* ...and it's led me to a conclusion, along with Shemeska's storyhour, about an integral element for an excellent Planescape game. I believe it requires a question... a question that drives the campaign. For TNO, it was the esoteric 'What can change the nature of a man?' For Shemeska, it was the much more innocent-seeming 'What is it you want?'

I just thought I would share my revelations for the benefit of all here.

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Mon, 2005-02-07 16:19
#2
Elethíus
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Indeed, such a question as deep as the one you mentioned (or seemingly deep) can truely drive a campaign. A question that truely is about the self of a character, the unique individual, is interesting indeed, and even moreso in a setting where there cannot possibly be a single answer.

Promoting refection of the character on himself/herself is something that should be encouraged in the philosophical-flavoured setting of Planescape. Tying the theme of a campaign to such a question is a great way to do this, indeed (or, at least, it should).
An interesting observation, my fiery friend.

Tell me, have you had the pleasure of finishing the game yet? If so, what do you think about the final answer that is given to Ravel's riddle (the one that appears latest in the game; who gives it, I won't say, in fea of spoiling)?

Mon, 2005-02-07 16:43
(Reply to #2) #3
Rhys
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"It is the question that drives us. It is the question that brought you here. You know the question, just as I did."

I don't think that question can be answered. At least not satsifactorily. Can you ever really know?

Elethius, do you refer to the one that is given in all caps or one before/after that?

Mon, 2005-02-07 18:20
(Reply to #3) #4
Bob the Efreet
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"Elethíus" wrote:
Tell me, have you had the pleasure of finishing the game yet? If so, what do you think about the final answer that is given to Ravel's riddle (the one that appears latest in the game; who gives it, I won't say, in fea of spoiling)?

Ah, not yet. I recently spoke to her, though, and when she asked me I told her the Planes could change a man. Because I think they can - they are belief made manifest, and a sodding weird place.

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Mon, 2005-02-07 18:21
(Reply to #4) #5
Elethíus
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The one without caps. I think. The kinda friendly one. Did he who speaks in caps answer it, anyway, or did he simply dismiss the question?

True, questions like the ones given here cannot be truely answered. At least, we cannot. The marvelous thing about Planescape is that such questions can be answered, and that all of those answers can be true.

One who truely believes that love can change the nature of a man will change when experiencing love. Though in this respect the question of "what one wants" is slightly different. The answers are somewhat more objective. One either wants something, or he does not. The wanting itself is not based on belief, though what someone wants can be tied to belief of a specific philosophy. But then, what can change the wanting of a man? Does desire run so deep that it can only change when the man changes?

Edit:

"Bob" wrote:
Ah, not yet. I recently spoke to her, though, and when she asked me I told her the Planes could change a man. Because I think they can - they are belief made manifest, and a sodding weird place.

Ah, you spoke to poor, a-lonely Ravel, did you?
She was as truely awesome character.

I disagree on your answer, though. It is your answer, of course, and I dare not interfere with free will or the illusion thereof. However, it is Belief that shapes the Planes, as you said. And Belief stems from the mind of the self (a whole lotta selves, true, but still). This would lead to a kind of circle in which the self would bring change to itself, through the Planes it itself has shaped. Perhaps that I have too much confidence in the power of the Belief of One, but it is in the case of the Nameless One somewhat justified, in my humble opinion.

I can't say I remember the answer I myself gave the Hag, though. But, I'm replaying the game once more, so soon I will know.

Mon, 2005-02-07 19:23
(Reply to #5) #6
Bob the Efreet
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"Elethíus" wrote:
I disagree on your answer, though. It is your answer, of course, and I dare not interfere with free will or the illusion thereof. However, it is Belief that shapes the Planes, as you said. And Belief stems from the mind of the self (a whole lotta selves, true, but still). This would lead to a kind of circle in which the self would bring change to itself, through the Planes it itself has shaped. Perhaps that I have too much confidence in the power of the Belief of One, but it is in the case of the Nameless One somewhat justified, in my humble opinion.

That's a rather interesting viewpoint - I hadn't thought of that. It makes sense, though.

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Mon, 2005-02-07 21:17
(Reply to #6) #7
Rhys
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You could also claim that what changed the nature of the particular man known as the Nameless One was Death, for so much of what his incarnations did was motivated by a fear of Death.

Tue, 2005-02-08 08:09
(Reply to #7) #8
jordarad
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The answer is not important, the question is.

In my current campaign, the PCs are also striving for identity. The identity that was before they were encased in Soulstones, and then freed and given the bodies of humans. Slowly each one is discovering who they are, and how who they are after their "human experience" is different than their former self. If they go all the way to their former selves, they will achieve great power (one's a Proxie, one's a Per, One's a Bleaker Factor, one's a Doppleganger Psion, one's a Yagnoloth), but they will cease to be THEMSELVES. This frustration of identity will wipe many of them off of their quest.

Identity, Belief, Resolve. Powerful stuff.

Thu, 2005-02-10 20:07
(Reply to #8) #9
Krypter
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"jordarad" wrote:
In my current campaign, the PCs are also striving for identity. The identity that was before they were encased in Soulstones, and then freed and given the bodies of humans. Slowly each one is discovering who they are, and how who they are after their "human experience" is different than their former self. If they go all the way to their former selves, they will achieve great power (one's a Proxie, one's a Per, One's a Bleaker Factor, one's a Doppleganger Psion, one's a Yagnoloth), but they will cease to be THEMSELVES. This frustration of identity will wipe many of them off of their quest.

Good idea, jordarad. Quite a dilemma for PCs who are pursuing power: gain your power at the price of your identity. I like it. You can play it two ways as well. If the PC completely rejects his old self, it may emerge anyway. If he embraces it, it will destroy him. Did you have this all worked out as part of your campaign?

Thu, 2005-02-10 21:27
(Reply to #9) #10
Shemeska the Ma...
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The question

My repetition of "What is it you want?" is, by itself, an underlying theme of the campaign, speaking both to the PCs and to most of the recurring NPCs in the background metaplot.

When asked, the question is almost a weapon in and of itself, a tool of corruption (similar to the Buddhist idea that all evil flows from desire, and enlightenment can only come from a shedding of earthly desires). It's seductive, even more so when the person asking the question can give to you what your answer is. It tends to be not an innocent little query, but a bloody knife into the guts of the person to find out what drives them, and how to use that against them. The question is almost an archetype amongst how evil acts, or how it originates and propagates in both Christian and Buddhist theology, though I wasn't intentionally drawing on either when I was working on it.

I wrote a bit of 'loth propaganda from the mouth of the Ebon himself, detailing my thoughts on that particular question and what it means to the fiends. [url]/fiction/node/]

Thu, 2005-02-10 22:37
(Reply to #10) #11
Clueless
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Some of the best moments in the game though are when Evil realizes that the party has learned the trick as well. The *look* on that arcaneloth's face when Clueless asked it mid negotation? *chuckle*

Fri, 2005-02-11 07:23
(Reply to #11) #12
jordarad
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The question

"Krypter" wrote:
"jordarad" wrote:
In my current campaign, the PCs are also striving for identity. The identity that was before they were encased in Soulstones, and then freed and given the bodies of humans. Slowly each one is discovering who they are, and how who they are after their "human experience" is different than their former self. If they go all the way to their former selves, they will achieve great power (one's a Proxie, one's a Per, One's a Bleaker Factor, one's a Doppleganger Psion, one's a Yagnoloth), but they will cease to be THEMSELVES. This frustration of identity will wipe many of them off of their quest.

Good idea, jordarad. Quite a dilemma for PCs who are pursuing power: gain your power at the price of your identity. I like it. You can play it two ways as well. If the PC completely rejects his old self, it may emerge anyway. If he embraces it, it will destroy him. Did you have this all worked out as part of your campaign?

They will achieve a new identity, a blend of both their old and new, but the Unity of Rings is a strong rule...

(Inspiration for this campaign was derived from combining ideas within the three laws of the Planes, the Deva Spark adventure, and the workings of Ly'kritch in Uncaged: FoS)

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