The Planes

I'm not really sure that mist is a mix of water/positive, it's just water mixed with air. If anything water/positive would be, and I'm actually shuddering as I say this, organic fluids. Possibly acid as a more tasteful alternative.

I could see earth/air mixing to make dust- that's basically what it is (and skin cells) and fire/water mixing to make steam, this would break down the "opposed element" thing a bit but personally I'd use this as an opportunity to add a little more open conflict to the inner planes, not quite the blood war but…

Anyway, that leaves us with a plane to fill. personally I've always thought that salt would be a better earth/negative mix - it's a mineral and salt is one of the few ways to really ruin earth but I'm not sure where this would leave water/negative.

Anyway, just my 2 cents

Positive energy is actively harmful, usually people just aren't exposed to enough of it - look at the positive energy plane, the plane of radiance or lightning. I chose acid because it is a more active liquid than the fairly neutral water and is relatively close to it in nature.

There's already a plane of blood?

I'm pretty sure the plane in the 'centre' is the prime.

Also I feel it's important to point out that the great ring doesn't actually exist in an objective sense - it's a construct invented by mortals to help them wrap their heads around how the planes fit together and planars know this (hence stopping it from becoming it a reality due to belief). It actually makes no sense when you take other modes of planar transportation into account. There's no real reason for the inner planes to follow a similar format and indeed I seem to remember them being mapped out across a sphere in one of the 2e books anyway.

btw where is this plane of blood posted? I can't find chapter 8 and I don't particularly want to have to go through every thread on the forums

The inner planes are spread out like a sphere, with the negative energy plane at one pole and the positive energy plane at the other. The elemental planes are spaced around the equator (if this were thought of as a globe). I fully realize that this doesn't have an objective reality in the form of actually being a three dimensional structure; but it is real in regards to planar connections. The material plane; is not in the center. Here is a map that shows the configuration of the planes as far as they can be conceptualized in three dimensions: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/35619350/?qo=3&q=by%3Azen79&qh=sort%...

Nick, the metaphor of the sphere is not real enough for streams and the like to appear in it. I think the existing cosmology should stay at it is (dust as the negative quasi-elemental plane connected to earth and such); but this allows for six new planes since the planes currently connected to the plane of wood need to be heavily revised. For example, if the negative connection of the plane of wood was the quasielemental plane of rot or decay or some such thing, there could be an abundance of disease.

Precisely, we are adding to the mix and seeing if something useful comes out; so far the answer is maybe. In any case, if there are connections between opposing planes, a center becomes largely inevitable, and the plane of wood would make the most sense to fill that center. Personally, I will not include the plane of wood or any associated planes in my campaigns; but, intellectual intercourse is enjoyable even when it produces no viable offspring.

Elemental plane of Salmon? Could that be..... the origin of the Lady of Pain?!

The inner planes as a funnel really doesn't allow for the connections of the inner planes that are well established as existing; I strongly believe that the spherical layout of the inner planes can be considered canon. As previously stated, the existence of a plane in the center is far from inherently necessary, but if there are connections between the planes of opposing elements, it is necessary. The plane of Wood does have a mixture of the four elements: water obviously in the form of rain and the fluids within the plants; air in the form of wind, oxygen, and carbon monoxide; earth in the form of nutrients and soil (remember that the elemental plane of earth is composed of soil just as much as stone, but the lack of air and similar things prevents plants from growing); and fire in the form of the frequent forest fires that I will postulate the plane having.

Being primarily composed of a single element is only true of the single elemental planes. Magma for instance is composed of the balance between and combination of earth and fire. The "elemental" (it isn't really an elemental plane, but nor is it a paraelemental, quasielemental, or energy plane) plane of Wood, as described in the Manual of the Planes, is not simply wood but rather plant life in general all growing and striving on a single infinite tree that has forests and the sort on its branches. The fact that it is not merely wood mixed with the what was said in my previous post makes it feasible for the elements to be in balance. The reason that I described the various elemental and paraelemental planes as being "level" with each other is that if one is "higher" than another it will have more positive energy, it is "lower" it will have more negative energy; but if they are all "level" with each other they will all have the same balance of positive and negative energy.

I suppose I will have to use what time I have before being flayed to spread the truth of the Lady of Pain to as many people as possible. Think about it, the Lady of Pain is a Big Ol' Fish .

I get what you're saying, I just don't like it as an inner plane. As the plane of wood stands in the MotP it basically sounds like Yggdrasil with wooden critters rather than big squirrels, that makes it a demi-plane or a pathway (actually it could work well as a pathway b/w the inner planes but I think that the ethereal already does that) rather than an inner plane. Also, the pseudo planes are still made up entirely of a blend of their elements not e.g- magma is made up almost entirely of magma not chunks of fire and earth floating together. As the plane of wood stands it is has all of the elements separated and no element clearly predominating (apart from wood which isn't actually a mix of those elements but a different element itsself)

btw, why can't the Prime be in the centre of the sphere?

I completely agree with you on both counts, but that doesn't alter that they are distinctly seperate from each other.

I like the way the inner planes work. Each Elemental plane has two paraelemental planes, and two quasielemental planes, one positive, one negative. It's pretty complex already, we don't need to complicate it by adding in "wood," or some such. It should be noted, that wood is a living, organic, and most of all, non-elemental substance that doesn't fit the other four. The Four classical western elements are based largely on the old Greek notion that those four elements made up the building blocks of all matter. Wood may have a place in Chinese Alchemy, but I don't think it really has a place in Planescape, except of course, as Arborea.

Okay, for those of you who seem tragically uninformed, here is a list of the para and quasi elelemental planes and their base components (and keep in mind, I'm doing this from memory):

Para-elemental Planes:
Earth+Water=Ooze
Water+Air=Steam
Air+Fire=Smoke
Fire+Earth=Magma
(note that "opposed" elements never touch, so there is no planar combination of air and earth)

Quasi-elemental Planes:
Negative+Earth=Dust,
Negative+Water=Salt,
Negative+Air=Void,
Negative+Fire=Ash,
Positive+Earth=Mineral,
Positive+Water=Ice,
Positive+Air=Lightning,
Positive+Fire=Radiance.

Anything wrong with this? I keep thinking that Steam is Fire+Water.

As I will say again; the wood plane has no place in the ordinary cosmology if there were connections between opposing planes (which was what Nick wanted) there would inevitably be a mixture of all four elements, and wood would make the most sense in this role. So to clarify further, I am not saying that there needs to be or should be a plane in the center of the inner planes; but if there were, wood would make the most sense.

Duckluck, you made some mistakes. The mixture of air+water is ice. Water+positive energy is steam.

If you're referring to the Planescape cosmology, then MakThuumNgatha is correct about Ice and Steam. For reference, a scan from the Inner Planes (I think... I know it's from one of the PS products, but I could be wrong about which one) can be found here: http://planewalking.dungeons.ru/inner/inner-planes-map.jpg

The planer index section of the planar portals feature on this website details which paraelemental and quasielemental planes come from what combination, and make it clear that ice is the paraelemental plane of air and water (cold air blowing upon water creates ice) and steam is the positive quasielemental plane of water (I imagine that the water is charged with energy and thus becomes a gas).

While the organic nature of the plane of wood does allow for the interesting possibility of it growing and thus spreading out; how does that make it similar to the prime material plane? I could see how this might make it something of a transitive plane, connecting all of the inner planes, but how would this allow for an outer plane of wood?

I am saying no such thing. Perhaps Yggdrassil grew from a seed of the Plane of Wood.

It does, in a way, make sense for the plane of ice to be from water and air: cold air blows upon water and water becomes ice. For steam: the positive energy energizes the water molecules causing it become a gas.

Ice: Its the wind chill (have trust and faith). Since positive energy doesn't exist in reality, who are we to say what it does and doesn't do? To the best of my knowledge (I'm a philosophy and anthro double major, that should give you an idea of the extent of my knowledge of the physical sciences) lightning is caused by loose electrons and behold: the plane of lightning is made of air and positive energy. Radiance could conceivably come from the molecular destablization of fire, insofar as "radiance" lacks any tangeble real-world existance. Minerals: molecular rearrangement and fusion of earth catalyzed by high levels of positive energy.

"Look out! It's a photosynthesis elemental! Run before it uh... greens all over us!"

-420

EDIT: Ice = Water, Water = Oxygen + Hydrogen. So, you need air to make ice (even in space)

Classical scholars knew that wood was a combination of all four elements because if you burn it, all those elements are released: fire, water vapor, smoke (a form of air), and ash (which was interpreted as a form of earth). Fire in compound form doesn't look like fire, just as in real chemistry hydrogen in compound form doesn't look like hydrogen.

To some extent, we don't have to rationalize the alchemical system used in AD&D. We can just accept that in the Planescape multiverse, an air atom and a water atom together make a compound, an ice molecule. A fire atom and an air atom make a smoke molecule. A water atom and an earth atom make an ooze molecule. It has nothing to do with the chemistry of the real world, but that's okay.

The quasi-elemental planes are similar. Positive and negative energy affects the four elemental atoms in different ways. Positively charged earth becomes mineral, and negatively charged earth becomes dust. There doesn't have to be a "logical" justification for this, any more than there has to be a common-sense reason why hydrogen and oxygen make water, or why carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen combine to make glucose.

The real reason the Inner Planes look like that is more complicated. Originally, in 1st edition, there were only ten Inner Planes: Earth, Water, Air, Fire, Heat, Cold, Vapor, and Dust, along with the positive and negative planes. The para-elemental planes of Heat, Cold, Vapor, and Dust were analogous to the qualities that classical (by which I mean ancient Greek) alchemy associated with the various elements: Hot, Cool, Wet, and Dry. Fire is hot and dry, earth is cold and dry, air is hot and wet, and water is cold and wet. Thus between the Planes of Fire and Earth would be the plane of Dryness, or Dust. Between the Planes of Water and Air would be the plane of moisture, or Vapor. Between the Planes of Fire and Air is the plane of Heat, or Magma. Between the planes of Earth and Water would be the plane of Cold, or Ice. Except some of these were switched around in 1e Deities & Demigods; I can't explain that.

Anyway, the chart looked like this:

Although it probably should have looked like this:

In May of 1983, Gary Gygax decided to revise the inner planes:

Dragon #73: May 1983

So anyway, the intent was to be able to fit a diagram of the elemental planes on a six-sided die.

Monte Cook included this change in-game in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix III, where he hinted under the description of the wavefire that the Inner Planes had once had a different shape, that Dust and Steam were once paraelemental planes (between Earth and Air and Water and Fire respectively), but the planes later shifted to their present configuration, so in the modern age they're quasielemental planes, and Earth and Air and Water and Fire no longer meet. As a quasielemental plane, the Plane of Steam is actually a universe of cool mist, but steam-based creatures like the wavefire still lurk in it, remnants of the early epoch when the Plane of Steam was a place of boiling water.

This suggests that there are actually two forms of "steam" - one which is a compound of Water and Fire, and one which is positively charged water. Presumedly water in the Planescape multiverse evaporates due to positive energy from the sun supercharging some of its atoms. These molecules are relatively stable (clouds are made of them), but they break down into pure water with time or perhaps negative energy (creating rain). Water can also be boiled, but steam is actually made of fire atoms and water atoms combined - this compound breaks down when it cools, so the fire atoms (too small to be seen) dissolve in the atmosphere and the water returns to its pure state.

There would also be two forms of dust - dust which is a molecule created by the influence of entropy on earth (quasielemental dust) and dust which is a compound of earth and air (paraelemental dust). Paraelemental dust would presumedly be lighter, drifting freely in the atmosphere. The most common source is from the earth/air atoms in humanoid skin and hair. Quasielemental dust is heavier, and includes sand and even rubble - any entropic form of earth.