The Old Planescape and the New Planescape

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The Old Planescape and the New Planescape

The Old Planescape and the New Planescape: The effects of Her Serenity's edict on the philosophical background in and around the city of doors.

When writing for a Planescape game, story, character or other article I now find that there is almost always a single question that often crops up when that article comes upon the subject of setting: Is this pre- or post- faction war? Now on the surface this is a simple question to answer and it has simple results. If no then it means that events surrounding the article happened before faction war, that the major factions are in power and operating almost exclusively out of Sigil, and that power struggles are more or less at an equilibrium point. Post faction war of coarse would seem to mean just the opposite. But really it doesn't mean that at all. Post faction war means that things are different now.

In the short run it would seem that the factions have fallen out of power, been robbed of their home in the city of doors and had their beliefs shaken at their core. In the long run none of this is true, except possibly the second. The power of the factions has been challenged and their direct power in Sigil itself has been dissolved but the Lady's edict does not extend throughout the planes. They are no longer bound in the old system of running the city and are now free to work solely to pursue their own goals. It also allows for new factions to take root and mature inside the city of doors and the outlands. Their separation also means that tensions between factions can cool off. But old grudges die hard and quarrels of belief can take life of their own. The war in the cage may have ended, but out on the planes, has it really begun?

In short. I would like to discuss, compare and contrast the factions of current day (cannon day) with those of pre faction war. Most of my knowledge comes from my experience in a post faction war campaign.
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I'm a pre-Faction War man myself, since FW was supposed to be part of a trilogy of adventures. The authors never intended this to be the status quo and like all good stories, they followed a certain procedure. The campaign setting was Act 1, which establishes the scene. Act 2 is chaos, where things get shaken up and a crisis develops. This is Faction War. Act 3 is the resolution of the crisis, and Act 4 is the return to normality. Since we didn't get Acts 3 or 4, we're sort of stuck in the middle of the stage, as it where, and that's not a good place to be.

I feel that since the vast body of material on Planescape describes the pre-FW setting, while only a tiny bit describes it post-FW, it's best to play and support the pre-FW world. However, the official position of Planewalker is that FW is canon and we go from there. Too bad, really, because the kriegstanz is one of the most interesting parts of Sigil. Without the factions we're back to rather bland medieval guilds, which have been done in every fantasy setting and are nothing exceptional.

How did your DM handle the post-FW factions? Did he wing it or use the new PSCS?

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I have heard of several people talking about how faction war was meant to be temporary, but the way things happened, we got stuck with the results as long term.
I see the resolution as obvious. Considering that Planescape was officially discontinued, the chances of WOTC creating a new planescape adventure or any new cannon is very slim. Therefore, Planewalker has the ability to create a planescape adventure that deals with this situation, has all the elements and twists that players of Planescape know and love, and finally restore the Factions to Sigil.
While this will the be accepted everywhere, and may not even be accepted by all the people of this site, we could treat it as non-official cannon that fixes the hole.
Im not sure if this was proposed before and voted down, or if their are really sticky legal issues involed in such a thing. Im not saying that we should challange WOTC, but just finally bring the post faction war crisis to a close.
I realize the resources and time required for such a progect, but aside from translating PS from 2e to 3e, isnt this what planewalker was made for?
If this was an amazing bad idea, I apologize. But I think its something that could really benifit the campaign setting. We may never get thge solution or ideas that WOTC would have used, but does that nessicarly mean that we cannot create something of good enough caliber to be widly accepted as the solution?
Make no mistake, im not saying I can do anywhere near as good as the orginals. I personally have no idea where to start on such a thing, but maybe, some day, we can finally close the circle that was supposedly left open by faction war.

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Only two comments, as I've not proposed my ideas yet to Gabe:

1) Money and economics have killed more people than any other force or power. *

2) Unity of rings.

*Regarding guilds: Consider the affects of the guilds during the Renaissance, the power struggles were anything *but* bland.

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That's a great idea, BERK. I hope someone is seriously considering it. It would restore the best parts of Planescape and also propel it in a forward direction. Unfortunately I'm not privy to the machinations of the vast conspiracy known as PSCS, but they're not addle-coves, so you can bet they've debated this issue already.

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"Clueless" wrote:
Only two comments, as I've not proposed my ideas yet to Gabe:

1) Money and economics have killed more people than any other force or power. *

Wow its great when other people realize this fact!! In fact I think most wars that are blamed on genocide, relegion, nationalism among other things really boill down to resources and modern economies. The other factors are either sideline or simply population motivation tools to get at the economic gains... whether those are real or percieved depends on the case and a matter of much debate...

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I may be a computer scientist - but I'm a flat out history geek, and I have a political savy streak a mile wide. Eye-wink

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I think it would be an interesting fight for the factions to re-establish themselves in Sigil after being out of power for 7 years now....

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"bonemage" wrote:
"Clueless" wrote:
Only two comments, as I've not proposed my ideas yet to Gabe:

1) Money and economics have killed more people than any other force or power. *

Wow its great when other people realize this fact!! In fact I think most wars that are blamed on genocide, relegion, nationalism among other things really boill down to resources and modern economies. The other factors are either sideline or simply population motivation tools to get at the economic gains... whether those are real or percieved depends on the case and a matter of much debate...

Actually, I've got a VERY long paper about what causes warfare and another one about how we fight.

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"Krypter" wrote:
Without the factions we're back to rather bland medieval guilds, which have been done in every fantasy setting and are nothing exceptional.

How did your DM handle the post-FW factions? Did he wing it or use the new PSCS?

He winged it but then again he did write the sigil guide here. So he did it very well which puts me on post faction war side. (I'll leave him to discuss why he made the choices that he did, but belive me it is a great game.)

First of all. The factions are not dead post faction war. Far far far from it. They are no longer based in sigil and no longer have the hold on Sigil politics that they once did. In a way this means that they can grow even larger out on the planes now that they are forced out.

Also it allows for new blood and new factions to arise. The lady might have just banned those current factions in the city...

Furthermore, who said the war just stops once it is ended in Sigil? Now that they are more out on the planes at large things might have cooled off but old grudges die hard. The blood war has been going on for a very long time for little reason. The faction war is a fresh wound.

Thus there are many different themes that are possable in a post faction war game. Timeline wise I think it can be an improvement to the setting if Planewalker handles it well. I know if they do as well as my dm then it will be good.

Give the war a chance.

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Gerzel, that's a good slogan. Planewalker should try that when people complain about Faction War. A lot of the time, it's because they didn't run that module in their own campaign and so they're missing a big part of the story, but I think Planescape can still continue and the factions can still be as big as they were. It's just less Sigil-centric.

"Give War a chance!"

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"Krypter" wrote:
Without the factions we're back to rather bland medieval guilds, which have been done in every fantasy setting and are nothing exceptional.

The factions were medieval-style guilds, too. Most of them specialized in a single craft or trade - the Doomguard was the weaponsmithing guild, the Dustmen were the mortician guild, the Xaositects were the guild of chaos-makers, and so on.

The main difference between the guilds and factions are that the factions started out as purely philosophical (and bludgeoning) groups, and turned themselves into guilds in an attempt to prove their worth during the culling of the Great Upheaval; the guilds started out as trade guilds, but this doesn't mean they won't become more philosophical with time.

In fact, I'd argue that in Sigil it's inevitable that the guilds will ultimately become as philosophical in nature as the factions ever were.

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Other than the Masons, I can't think of any other guild that became a philosophical organization.

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"Emperor Xan" wrote:
Other than the Masons, I can't think of any other guild that became a philosophical organization.

Tell me how many specific medival guilds can you think of?

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"Kaelyn" wrote:
The factions were medieval-style guilds, too. Most of them specialized in a single craft or trade - the Doomguard was the weaponsmithing guild, the Dustmen were the mortician guild, the Xaositects were the guild of chaos-makers, and so on.

[...] the guilds started out as trade guilds, but this doesn't mean they won't become more philosophical with time. In fact, I'd argue that in Sigil it's inevitable that the guilds will ultimately become as philosophical in nature as the factions ever were.

Now if that were to occur it would certainly pique my interest. The philosophies of the factions, and how they affect power politics across the planes in an orthogonal fashion to alignment and wealth, is far more interesting than simple power politics. Every prime city has power politics among guilds and other interest groups. That in itself is not unique or exceptional. The Dragonmark Houses in Eberron are probably the most interesting recent example of that standard trope.

Some of the factions had guild functions, like the Godsmen at the Great Foundry, while others did not, eg: the Anarchists, the Indeps, the Athar. They were not organized as guilds, that is, groups of craftsmen or artisans who only developed political power to defend or increase their craft interests. Ironically enough, guilds in the middle ages were often formed to keep out new members, reducing the supply of "licensed professionals" and raising the wages that guild craftsmen could demand. Very similar to how the doctor's association where I live operates in RL.

So in a way guilds and factions are opposites and have an entirely different structure and raison d'etre.

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"Krypter" wrote:
"Kaelyn" wrote:
The factions were medieval-style guilds, too. Most of them specialized in a single craft or trade - the Doomguard was the weaponsmithing guild, the Dustmen were the mortician guild, the Xaositects were the guild of chaos-makers, and so on.

[...] the guilds started out as trade guilds, but this doesn't mean they won't become more philosophical with time. In fact, I'd argue that in Sigil it's inevitable that the guilds will ultimately become as philosophical in nature as the factions ever were.

Now if that were to occur it would certainly pique my interest. The philosophies of the factions, and how they affect power politics across the planes in an orthogonal fashion to alignment and wealth, is far more interesting than simple power politics. Every prime city has power politics among guilds and other interest groups. That in itself is not unique or exceptional. The Dragonmark Houses in Eberron are probably the most interesting recent example of that standard trope.

Some of the factions had guild functions, like the Godsmen at the Great Foundry, while others did not, eg: the Anarchists, the Indeps, the Athar. They were not organized as guilds, that is, groups of craftsmen or artisans who only developed political power to defend or increase their craft interests. Ironically enough, guilds in the middle ages were often formed to keep out new members, reducing the supply of "licensed professionals" and raising the wages that guild craftsmen could demand. Very similar to how the doctor's association where I live operates in RL.

So in a way guilds and factions are opposites and have an entirely different structure and raison d'etre.

True but the lady pushed out the guilds before the factions arose, in a similar way that she pushed the factions out more recently...funny that.

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"Gerzel" wrote:
True but the lady pushed out the guilds before the factions arose, in a similar way that she pushed the factions out more recently...funny that.

The Lady of Pain didn't push out the guilds, at least not directly. The power of the guilds was destroyed when the factions, who had taken over most of the political power in the wake of the Great Upheaval, made it illegal to belong to more than one organization at once. This meant that anyone who wanted the power belonging to a faction provided couldn't also be a guilder. In philosophy-heavy Sigil it wasn't a difficult choice for most people which kind of group they'd rather belong to. The power of the guilds was shattered and most of them left.

The Lady of Pain never decreed that guilds should be illegal, though. In fact, some minor ones survived even into the faction era, in the Guildhall Ward. That's why Cagers felt comfortable reestablishing them once the factions were safely gone as lawmaking entities.

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I've been thinking about the issue of the guilds for a little while now; wondering how things might pan out.

The Outer Planes will ALWAYS have Belief as the driving force behind it all -- even the Lady's edict can't change that.

Factions -- You ARE what you BELIEVE
Prime Guilds -- You ARE what you DO

So what about Guilds in Sigil? Everybody seems to lean towards a type of guild organization that you'd have found in days of yore here on Earth. But we're not Planars. We're Primes. We're not driven by Belief in the same way that Planars are. We need to think like Planars.

Sigil/Planar Guilds -- You DO what you BELIEVE. Alternately, you BELIEVE in what you DO.

I won't elaborate. Instead I'll leave that last line unexplained to encourage discussion...

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"Enzo Sarlas" wrote:
Sigil/Planar Guilds -- You DO what you BELIEVE. Alternately, you BELIEVE in what you DO.

That's a great take on guilds, Enzo. Something original instead of the standard Thieves' Guilds and Rich Greedy Merchants' Guilds of the clueless.

Instead of "a place for every man, and every man in his place" we could have "a belief for every man, and every man a philosopher". If you believe in hunting down lawbreakers, you join the Hunters' Guild, or whatever you want to call the guild fashioned after the Mercykillers. If you believe the universe should be destroyed, you join the Crumblers' Guild (Doomguard), which might perform the service of tearing down old structures in Sigil, etc.

Godsmen forge, Doomguard destroy, Xaositects confuse (jesters?), Sensates explore, Fated repossess (Repo Man on the planes!), Anarchists fight for a cause, Harmonium provide security, Mercykillers are bounty hunters, Ciphers perform, Dustmen bury the dead and "encourage" customers....getting stuck here. Ring-givers provide charity.

The guilds that could emerge from these practical enterprises could be the praxis for the philosophy of the factions.

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What I'll do here is list the guilds and try to provide some vague, underlying belief or principle to each.

Builders Fellowship -- There is nothing that a knowledgable mind and a steady hand cannot accomplish. Chaos must be hammered into Order.

Craftsmens Guild -- Artistry and craftsmanship is valued, be it in work, word or deed. Beauty is what matters. Ugly things (or people) are not to be valued or trusted. Reputation is important.

Council of Innkeepers -- This group believes in the importance of hospitality, and jink. Tolerate your neighbors, show them hospitality, accommodate their needs and reap your reward.

Daylaborers Guild -- They believe in the nobility and honesty of an honest day's work. Education is not important, what matters is strength -- strength of will, strength in numbers. Luck can't be counted on. Work for what you want.

Entertainers Guild -- Beliefs similar to Society of Sensation, but not quite. They believe experiences are to be pursued as a 'player' rather than an 'audience member'. Your experience is nothing if you cannot share it with others somehow.

Escorts and Touts Guild -- Jink and power belongs to those who know how to get their hands on it. A fool and his jink are soon parted. The 80/20 Rule governs all. (all touts know the 80/20 rule and the five peels)

Guild of Doorsnoops -- I have a right to go anywhere I am able. I MUST know what lies around the corner, or on the other side of that portal.

Guild of Teamsters and Lightboys --

Lawyers Guild --

Minders Guild --

Sanitation Guild -- Rich or poor, fiend or celestial, we all eat, and we all $#!+. So you're no better than me.

Order of Master Clerks and Scribes -- If it's not written down, it ain't true! He who writes history, decides history.

Runners and Messengers Guild -- Interraction. Nothing works in isolation. We're all connected. What this one does affects that one, and that one. How do I know? 'Cause I see it every day. A message delivered, a body discovered.

Funerary Guild -- Essentially, this is a new front for the Dusties.

Planewalkers Guild --

Okay, I'm getting lazy. Time for someone else for comment or add to this.

The intent is not to have the guilds be a direct substitution for the factions, not right away at least. Instead, consider that Planars need to belong to groups of like-minded individuals. It is their nature. Even though the guilds will start out as traditional guilds, the ever-present power of Belief will twist and warp the guilds, collecting like-minded folk together, folk who will seek to enforce and spread their beliefs through Sigil and out across the planes.

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very nice enzo. Lemme think about it and I'll see if I can't come up to something.

Also there are probably rival guilds holding very similar beliefs ...possably...hmm..

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Enzo: That's a good start to setting the beliefs of the guilds.

For the Planewalker's Guild is probably something like: "I haven't lived until I've set foot in every layer of every plane out there. I have to see it all! Travel is experience, and experience is knowledge." Kind of what Theoz Pureskull likes to do, if you read that section.

The only thing I don't like is the rather banal names of some of the guilds. The Doorsnoop's Guild is a good name, but the "Sanitation Guild"? Guild of Teamsters and Lightboys? Ick. Not fun or interesting enough. I'd rename a whole whack of them to start.

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"Krypter" wrote:
"Sanitation Guild"?

It doesn't have the ring of Terry Pratchett's "King of the Golden River," does it?

Maybe "the Guild of Finders," or "the Guild of Second Chances."

Quote:
Guild of Teamsters and Lightboys? .

They were one of the guilds active even during the faction era, at least the teamster part. Maybe something like "the Guild of Unseen Hands," to reflect their utility, ubiquitousness, and how the rest of the city might take them for granted.

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I got the names from Chapter 6 of PW's Planescape Campaign Setting (PSCS). Some of the names are a bit of a mouthful, IMHO, and I wouldn't object to some judicious renaming. Some of 'em might just get nicknames, just like the factions did.

I believe that the guilds need to be worked up in detail, maybe even earning their own version of a Factol's Manifesto in due course.

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"Enzo Sarlas" wrote:
Some of 'em might just get nicknames, just like the factions did.

That's a very good point: the guilds probably have multiple names that include both their official, canonical ones and alternate "cant" names that they're called by the bashers on the street.

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Here are some more offhand suggestions: Stonehands Guild for the Builders, Blackfingers Guild for the Scribes & Scriveners, Darklight Guild for the Lamplighters (and have the secret master be an actual Darklight!), Featherfoot Guild for the Runners, Strongbacks for the Daylabourers, and Lawseekers for the Lawyers.

Minders Guild sounds interesting, but I would have thought it applied more properly to the Touts and Escorts.

And tongue-in-cheek: Cloaca Fellowship for the Sanitizers.

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"Krypter" wrote:
Here are some more offhand suggestions: Stonehands Guild for the Builders, Blackfingers Guild for the Scribes & Scriveners, Darklight Guild for the Lamplighters (and have the secret master be an actual Darklight!), Featherfoot Guild for the Runners, Strongbacks for the Daylabourers, and Lawseekers for the Lawyers.

Minders Guild sounds interesting, but I would have thought it applied more properly to the Touts and Escorts.

And tongue-in-cheek: Cloaca Fellowship for the Sanitizers.

Well there is no reason that there can't be two or more guilds for similar functions. Also guilds might have crossed function lines; so you might have a touts and barkeeps guild.

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