The Old Ones are credited with creating the multiverse and then walling it off from themselves, with us inside and them dwelling outside... question! Is the "outside" they dwell in possibly the same "Outside" known as the Far Realm? It seem like it would have to be! Your thoughts...?
The Old Ones and "Outside"
Tue, 2007-07-17 18:15
#1
The Old Ones and "Outside"
Wed, 2007-07-18 13:11
#3
Outside
Hmm... so our whole multiverse could be considered as a kind of bubble floating in the soup of the Far Realm... kind of makes you wonder if there are other bubbles with multiverses inside out there somewhere in the Far Realm, waiting to be explored! I sure hope there aren't any humongous Far Realm creatures out there that like bubbles for lunch...
Wed, 2007-07-18 13:15
#4
The Old Ones and "Outside"
I sure hope there aren't any humongous Far Realm creatures out there that like bubbles for lunch...
.... plenty.
Wed, 2007-07-18 18:28
#5
The Old Ones and "Outside"
The Old Ones are credited with creating the multiverse and then walling it off from themselves, with us inside and them dwelling outside... question! Is the "outside" they dwell in possibly the same "Outside" known as the Far Realm?
Not necessarily. The Old Ones are from the OD&D "Gold Box" cosmology rather than from the Planescape/AD&D cosmology, and they exist in 3e only by virtue of a brief mention of them in the Epic Level Handbook (which suggested they were all dead, destroyed by their creations the umbral blots).
In their original presentation, they existed in the seventh and higher dimensions of space, which they walled up with the Vortex Dimension (which is the sixth spatial dimension, beyond the fourth (hyperspace) and the fifth (the nightmare dimension). The Vortex Dimension is an infinite storm only perceivable from the perspective of a being existing simultaneously in the fourth, fifth, and sixth dimensions of space. Even the greatest of gods can't penetrate it. It's from there that vortex creatures like umbral blots and spectral hounds emerge.
How that would work translated to the Great Wheel cosmology is anyone's guess. You could say it was the Far Realm if you wanted, though that would give the Old Ones a distinct flavor that I don't think is desirable. The point of them is that they're a higher level of being beyond the greatest gods, not that they're indescribable Lovecraftian entities. They're the "next step" after the Immortals. Not overpowers like Ao, but beings who have ascended beyond the known multiverse entirely. In Planescape, a few greater gods have been said to have made that step, including Danu (the mother of the Celtic pantheon). The Sumerian pantheon is said to be preparing to make a similar ascension as well.
The correct analogy would be a set of planes that are to the Outer Planes as the Outer Planes are to the Material, one that even most of the powers don't know about. Not "outside," but "above."
The abode of the Old Ones has never been called "outside" in anything official. They dwell in the higher dimensions.
Thu, 2007-07-19 02:17
#6
The Old Ones and "Outside"
They dwell in the higher dimensions.
Higher Dimensions, hmm... Sounds awfully like Higher Reality from "Doors to Unknown" adventure.
As I recall it in that adventure there was this Higher Reality thingie wich was parrallel with Mount Celestia.
Thu, 2007-07-19 08:34
#7
The Old Ones and "Outside"
Higher Dimensions, hmm... Sounds awfully like Higher Reality from "Doors to Unknown" adventure.
As I recall it in that adventure there was this Higher Reality thingie wich was parrallel with Mount Celestia.
That idea originated in the Ravenloft Nightmare Lands boxed set, which detailed the various levels of reality from level 1 (ordinary dreams) to level 2 (dreamscapes) to level 3 (reality) to level 4 (hyperreality).
Beldaari isn't really parallel with Mount Celestia - it's part of it. Hyper-real regions are part of the existing cosmology, rather than "above it." The Old Ones would probably have to dwell in something like level 5 reality, beyond even the mercurials of Beldaari.
Sat, 2007-07-21 08:46
#8
The Old Ones and "Outside"
You could say that the realm beyond the Outer Planes, to which the greatest of greater gods ultimately ascend, is simply the Far Realm. It's kind of strange to imagine Danu and other ancient, primal powers out there hobnobbing with the so-called Elder Evils, but it's not impossible at all.
You'd end up with an idea kind of like Gnosticism, with apparent reality a prison of sorts and the destiny of all beings ultimately to escape it. But instead of the transcendent Pleroma with its monotheistic godhead, you have the unending madness and alien imaginings of the Far Realm greeting you instead.
To answer your question, Anime, yes - it's often implied that the known planes are only a bubble in the Far Realm. And some of the entities there definitely enjoy eating bubbles for lunch.
Sat, 2007-07-21 14:51
#9
The Old Ones and "Outside"
To answer your question, Anime, yes - it's often implied that the known planes are only a bubble in the Far Realm. And some of the entities there definitely enjoy eating bubbles for lunch.
But how can that be when the Far Realm and the Multiverse don't even exist simultaneously? Haven't you even said that the Far Realm exists before time and the multiverse and after time and the multiverse, but not during time and the multiverse?
Sat, 2007-07-21 15:01
#10
The Old Ones and "Outside"
Time doesn't exist in the Far Realms. Even if its true that it only exists before and after the multiverse, since time does not exist there 'before' and 'after' are meaningless words. It would be an ever changing constant that only exists before a point, and after a point, and doesn't go away went it isn't there.
Sun, 2007-07-22 09:07
#11
The Old Ones and "Outside"
But how can that be when the Far Realm and the Multiverse don't even exist simultaneously? Haven't you even said that the Far Realm exists before time and the multiverse and after time and the multiverse, but not during time and the multiverse?
That's one of the problems with describing or, indeed, imagining places such as the Far Realms. Wholy alien? Yeah, but what does it mean. You can't be thinking four dimensionally about it, it's just too few dimensions to fully comprehend it. Unfortunately, human minds can't grasp the concept of higher dimensions without studying quantum physics, string theory, and the like for the majority of their adult lives. Perhaps, were he a Planescape fan, Stephen Hawking might be able to envision it more clearly. For the rest of us, however, suffice to say that a bubble is a very very simplified metaphor and anybody that even brushes past the plane will go mad all but one time out of infinity. Thus, you only need to describe it as much as you want to and then slide the PC a blank character sheet.
Mon, 2007-07-23 21:53
#12
The Old Ones and "Outside"
I'm posting after a long leave on a random impulse.
It is pretty easy to imagine the multiverse as a "bubble" in the Far Realm despite the fact that the Far Realm supposeably exists "only" "before" and "after" this multiverse if time is only relative to a specific multiverse. The beginning and ending of this multiverse (and what occured before and after it) is, of course, only relative to this multiverse; and this doesn't just refer to the actual events in the planescape multiverse, but to the linear timeframe of the multiverse. Other multiverses/bubbles floating in the Far Realm would have their own timelines, timeloops, timeoctagons, and infinite other conceivable and inconceivable ways for time to pass; relative to which the notions of "before" or "after" the existence of our multiverse doesn't mean much of anything. What that actually means for time in the Far Realm is of course incomprehensible, but it would appear that multiple timeframes occur in the Far Realm simultaneously. Basic game mechanics (and yes, the Far Realms should be playable, if only by a epic characters for a very limited amount of time) necessitate the existance of linear time, and the lines in the Manual of the Planes "travelers might... relive a hundred childhoods simultaneously wherein their parents were secretly Far Realm wights, or backward speaking begin" suggests that travelers are at the very least exposed to many new ways of experiencing time.
I've always held the belief that the Far Realm was where the beings who transcended greater godhood ultimately ascended. It is to be expected that the Believers of the Source believe their source to be some sort of euphoric, glorious "place"; otherwise, why would they devote their lives to attaining it? Far Realm probably is a glorious realm for those who have attained a sufficiently high level of conciousness; everyone else is just overwhelmed and perceives all manner of disjointed, "impossible", "grotesque" beings and is driven insane.
If the above is accepted as true, along with the Gnostic ideas that Rip mentioned, the creatures of the Far Realm (some of them at least, particularly the Uvuudaum) have just gained a lot more depth and a meaningful potential motive (which the DM should only know of course, their actions should remain incomprehensible and frightening for players): helping souls (or something more basic and eternal than souls) along the path of freedom from the illusory, transient nature of our reality/multiverse. Doing so frequently results in the madness and death of countless mortals (which would cause beings from the Far Realm to be classified as "evil" by the alignment axis relative to our multiverse).
Here is an idea for the industrious (which I might pick up myself): converting and statting out Buddhism's Bodhisattva as Far Realm entities.
Tue, 2007-07-24 19:52
#13
Far Realm and Buddha...
Yeah, that should go over REAL well with Buddhists... as long as we're mentioning subversive ideas, did you know that the Call Of Cthulhu game from Chaosium says that Moses freed Yog-Sothoth from the Black Mountain, and therefore Yog-Sothoth is really...(ahem) a certain well-known God under another guise (the d20 Call Of Cthulhu game gives stats for Him, ha ha...) Look on the bright side, folks, at least He's Neutrally-aligned... I guess the Far Realm must be "Heaven"! (Funny, most people imagine it DIFFERENT... maybe it doubles as Hell???)
Tue, 2007-07-24 22:01
#14
The Old Ones and "Outside"
I'll tell you what is really subversive: the Derlethian blasphemy that Yog-Sothoth was at any point imprisioned in the Black Mountain or freed by a mere human. He is no "common" Great Old One, he is the All-In-One and second greatest of the Outer Gods who exists beyond time and space. Do not suggest even for a second that that little bit about Moses even comes close to being canon. To even mention Yog-Sothoth in the same breath as the Judea-Christian God is to insult Yog-Sothoth. Call of Cthulhu D20 is such a horrible rendition of Call of Cthulhu that I will denounce that as blasphemous as well.
Why don't you ask any of the various Christians here how they feel about demons, devils, and angels being part of D&D? IIRC, Narfi Res is an adherent of Norse heathenism, why don't you ask him how he feels about the presence of his gods in Planescape? Most Buddhists would care about my suggestion regarding the Bodhisattva about the same amount. For those who are so high strung that they can't appreciate a game, I quite frankly don't care.
Chill out and stop worrying about offending people.
Tue, 2007-07-24 22:09
#15
The Old Ones and "Outside"
[mod]*ahem* folks, just remember to play nice - or at least civil with each other - please stick on topic for any replying posts[/mod]
Thu, 2007-07-26 17:28
#16
My comments...
Gosh, maybe I should change my alias to "Troublemaker"... umm... back on topic, do you suppose there are any planes beyond the Far Realm, or is it the ultimate "edge" of Reality?
Thu, 2007-07-26 18:28
#17
The Old Ones and "Outside"
Call of Cthulhu D20 is such a horrible rendition of Call of Cthulhu that I will denounce that as blasphemous as well.
But if Cthulhu D20 was blasphemous then it must have been Cthulhu! But if you are denouncing it, then it must not be Cthulhu!
*Head explodes.*
Being a rogue modron is hard sometimes.
-420
Thu, 2007-07-26 19:05
#18
The Old Ones and "Outside"
Gosh, maybe I should change my alias to "Troublemaker"... umm... back on topic, do you suppose there are any planes beyond the Far Realm, or is it the ultimate "edge" of Reality?
I don't see why the multiverse has to have any limitations at all. Sure; I think it's probable that if the Great Wheel (that is, the entire edifice of history from the beginning of time to its end, linear or cyclical) is only a "bubble" within the Far Realm, the Far Realm itself might be a "bubble" of some sort within an even larger medium.
Beyond the "higher planes" are still higher ones, and higher planes still, and so on into infinity.
Thu, 2007-07-26 22:10
#19
The Old Ones and "Outside"
Beyond the "higher planes" are still higher ones, and higher planes still, and so on into infinity.
I think this is a point that needs to be emphasized. When people start talking about creating stats for game mechanics like The Lady of Pain or Neth or what exactly is Chronias (the seventh layer of Celestia) or how many layers does the Abyss have, it spoils the mystery of the entire role playing experience.
-420
Fri, 2007-07-27 03:54
#20
My own personal and weird theory...
My own personal and weird theory about the Far Realm is that it is actually mimir.net's hypothesized Ordial Plane.
Thanks
Luc "Told you it was weird" French
Sat, 2007-07-28 12:41
#21
The Old Ones and "Outside"
I assume that the Far Realm and the Great Wheel are two seperate realities, two seperate multiverses (two branes if you want to invoke theoretical cosmology) that on occasion will brush up against one another, or have points of interaction (intentional or not). They're both composed on concepts alien to the other, and exposure to one by creatures of the other is oftentimes lethal or toxic (physically, mentally, or spiritually).
I don't like the idea that the Far Realm is somehow a greater/larger soup that the Great Wheel floats within. I like to view them both as bubbles in a foamy ocean, of which what we know as the ethereal deep is only the shallows of that larger and infinite metaphysical sea.
Yes it's the Far Realm(s) that they come from.