The nature of the planes

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schpeelah's picture
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The nature of the planes

So the fluff is as follows: most planes are infinite, but the setting seems not to be affected by the infinity; the way between two places (say, gate-towns) seems to change and, at least in the Outlands, geography doesn’t follow the laws of geometry; travel times further change depending on circumstances: doing Evil in Elysium means you’ll never get anywhere, for the good guys everything is just around the corner.

 

Explanation: every infinite plane is actually a Schrödinger planar pathway that doesn’t actually exist physically until observed, at which point it assumes a form based on who the traveler himself is, where he is heading and the context of currently existing nearby terrain. Any actual place – town, divine realm – is a demiplane connected to the pathway, with the exeption that it counts as part of the larger plane for purposes of effects like Planeshift.

 

 

What do you think about this interpretation?

Center of All's picture
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Joined: 2004-05-11
I've always thought of the

I've always thought of the "bounded infinity" of the planes as something akin to digits on a number line.  Counting from 1 to 2 spans an infinite number of fractions, but those fractions have an easily defined boundary.  They cannot be larger than 2 or smaller than 1.  Infinity limited by paramters, but infinity nonetheless.  While many planes don't have such clear-cut boundaries, I have always found the concept quite apt for explaining the idea of planar infinity.  It's a rather Guvner approach, but sometimes that approach does make sense. 

I don't know if I agree with the hypothesis for planar travel.  It certainly applies to some planes more than others.  A powerfully morphic plane like Elysium, perhaps.  However, many other planes can have travel much like a Prime.  By following certain rules and existing paths, you can reach Olympus or Thoth's Library or any number of locales.  Part of it, too, may simply be the perception a plane places on those traveling it.  In the case of Elysium, an evil creature might have a hard time not because the path warps, but because the plane disorients him and makes him get lost even though he thinks he's traveling in a straight line.  A good creature, on the other hand, is whisked directly to his destination because the plane allows him to intuitively follow the most direct route.

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weishan's picture
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I see it as metaphysical

I see it as metaphysical distance. (especially in cases like Elysium). The more different where you are and where you're going, the greater the 'distance.'

ripvanwormer's picture
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Joined: 2004-10-05
This is the way I see it:

This is the way I see it: the Astral Plane has no true space (or time), and the Outer Planes are within the Astral Plane, so they don't either. All they have are concepts and belief. So the concept of infinity exists in the Outer Planes, and it's important and influential, but it's not true infinity in the sense of physical space that goes on forever. When you look at the Spire, you're looking at the idea of infinity, and - paradoxically - you can see it all at once. It's not just a mountain that continues upward until you can't see it anymore, it's mind-shattering Infinity all at once, with Sigil floating on top.

Jem
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A variation of schpeelah,

A variation of schpeelah, weishan, and rip's interpretations are like mine as well.  When I bother to pin it down, I think of points in an Outer Plane as spiritual states.  Your locational coordinates would, if they didn't manifest as physical distances so that you could comprehend them, be descriptions of the  beliefs and intentions you currently hold.  A god's mastery of its domain, or an archdevil or demon lord's mastery of a layer, are functions of the degree to which they've intertwined themselves with certain beliefs or concepts.

One can run with this as an explanation for why the Planes see such powerful resources thrown at them: because they affect the conceptual construct of the entire mortal universe.  When a gate-town slips into its Outer Plane, some alignment is empowered because it gains a greater foothold in what was once morally neutral concept, everywhere, across the Prime.  If Elysium collects Ecstasy, perhaps a certain type of contemplative life becomes a force for good in the world.  When Arcadia lost Nemausus, Good suffered a dimunition of its abilities at the expense of Law, and it would be a good act to restore it.

Vice versa, it gives a good reason for PCs to dislike being on the Lower Planes (besides the possibility of sudden and painful death, of course).  Simply to be on a Lower Plane requires that one experience evil and intend to deal with it in some way, and may have a lasting effect on one's spirit. 

taotad's picture
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Interesting

Interesting arguments.

When players said they didn´t understand infinity in Planescape I always asked them why they should. One cannot perceive infinity since it defies perception, but it holds a strange interest to me, and everyone else, nonetheless. 

I guess my view of it sements what people above me have said and especially Rip's that the astral has no space, or as it says in the Guide to the Astral; it's between spaces. I used to speculate that the astral was the glue that held the pieces of elemental matter together into the Prime material. 3rd edition shattered that idea with the all-encompassing astral, but now it seems possible again.

I also speculated on the thought that the astral was a construct of belief so that basically belief held the physical universe together. The outer planes would be focal-points of massive amounts of belief that would be more rigid, and thus traversable.

Thinking about this again makes me automatically place the older, more semented beliefs into the lawful side of the Great Ring, while newer ones would be on the chaotic side. It fits with the more morphous quality of the chaotic side, and more stale taste to the lawside. But ultimately it seems a bit too... ruly for Planescape. 

Ohh digression galore. I'm getting older.

Belief between matter. And the between is, as the matter is, endless. In the spirit of 4th edition this could explain the primordial against powers conflict to a large degree. When belief and matter is thrown together they collide and conflict ensues. Maybe the rise of the primordials in recent years is because the glue is getting weaker? Maybe the elemental planes and the belief ones are drifting apart?

This is probably one of the other ideas I've had recently. That the outer planes and material planes actually are two different concepts that doesn't really fit together, but at some time drifting through the expanses of metaspace they met and had a baby; the Prime. Maybe the Far Realm is another concept that wants to couple with the Prime?

Enough with an old mans sexual ramblings. Good to see some old fashioned extreme planar ponderings again!

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