I personally try to avoid pinning the seven deadly sins to Lords of the Nine, I feel that it limits them too much. The most gluttonous is probably Baalzebul (building new cities, being wasteful, and ruining his layer, etc.)
The Lord of Gluttony?
Hm - I've got a very different view on him - I would have put him at Pride.
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It can be a limitation or it can't, it dipends on how you play it, I think.
Baator was created on the base of Dante's hell, so I think it shouldn't be a big problem to make similar associations with the deadly sins. Anyway, surely is not canon.
Sure, I totally agree. After all, he is a fallen archon.
Sure?
A very common error is to think that slot= lazyness. It is not like that.
Sloth is " the indolence in the practice of good deeds" that is the dew of every human being" (sorry for my English" )
Also, Dispeter is paranoiac, yes, but it never moves out of his tower. This immobility is what made me think of sloth.
I would say that each archdevil should be asociated with several "sins" that they use as their signature tools in temptation of mortals. Thus giving them some sort of portfolio.
For example: Bel could be asociated both with despair, wrath and hate. Wich sould suit him fine since he is warlord and that sins could be tied to war.
Also they described type of fiend (devil) that look like obese gigants without faces with gapping holes for mouth.
They were asociated with gluttony but I cannot remember source where they introduced them (think it was "Book of Vile Deeds"). They called them Garganthuans or Gargathanzu or something.
EDIT: Ghargatula, they were called Ghargatula.
One-eyed, one-horned, flying, purple people eater says: "Monsters are nature's way for keeping XPs fresh."
The Lords of the Nine don't generally map to single themes very well. There are exceptions, but they're pretty complex, which is partly a consequence of all the different ways they've been handled over the years.
I'd probably associate Mammon with both gluttony and greed, personally. He also represents disease.
A very common error is to think that slot= lazyness. It is not like that.
Sloth is " the indolence in the practice of good deeds" that is the dew of every human being" (sorry for my English" )
From Merriam Webster
sloth
Pronunciation:
\ˈslȯth, ˈsläth also ˈslōth\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural sloths
Etymology:
Middle English slouthe, from slow slow
Date:
12th century
1 a: disinclination to action or labor : indolence b: spiritual apathy and inactivity
: inclination to laziness : sloth
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The meaning is slightly different when applied to deadly sins, however, in Catholic theology.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14057c.htm
I agree that sloth fits Dispater very well, though he is not the personification of it.
I disagree on Sloth being tied to Dispater.
Considering how he's constantly rearranging and managing a layer-sized city and taking countermeasures to thwart (imagined or real) plots and assassination attempts against him, I’d say he’s a pretty productive lord of the nine.
The fact that he doesn't leave his tower doesn't mean he's inactive or lazy – he’s about as vigilant as they come. To me that doesn’t fit with slacking off.
Considering how he's constantly rearranging and managing a layer-sized city and taking countermeasures to thwart (imagined or real) plots and assassination attempts against him, I’d say he’s a pretty productive lord of the nine.
The fact that he doesn't leave his tower doesn't mean he's inactive or lazy – he’s about as vigilant as they come. To me that doesn’t fit with slacking off.
Read the stuff in the links Rip van Wormer posted. Sloth is being used in a theological context, which alters its meaning. The only real issue I see is that Sloth is one of the broader "deadly sins", and could be applied to just about any of the Lords of the Nine, since it is basically about finding good too difficult or actively repulsive.
On a side note, the Catholic Encyclopedia is a badass piece of reference material, both in general, and for PS.
Considering how he's constantly rearranging and managing a layer-sized city and taking countermeasures to thwart (imagined or real) plots and assassination attempts against him, I’d say he’s a pretty productive lord of the nine.
The fact that he doesn't leave his tower doesn't mean he's inactive or lazy – he’s about as vigilant as they come. To me that doesn’t fit with slacking off.
Read the stuff in the links Rip van Wormer posted. Sloth is being used in a theological context, which alters its meaning. The only real issue I see is that Sloth is one of the broader "deadly sins", and could be applied to just about any of the Lords of the Nine, since it is basically about finding good too difficult or actively repulsive.
I did read it. I still don't see how sloth applies to Dispater in this context any more than it does to other lords (as you also touch on). In fact, various parts make me think of specific traits that can be attributed to other Lords of the Nine:
This part might apply to Baalzebul when he was known as Triel - the ways of righteousness grew weary on him, and he took the "less hindering" way of tyranny. Dispater, on the other hand, despises "right living" (as in being Good) but it’s not because of a need to be laborious.
and when do the events of Torment take place? I know it´s uncanonical, but still...
I wouldn't call Dispater productive. All that rearranging and repair of Dis is pointless toil.
Pants of the North!
I strongly agree. He is something like paralized by his paranoia.
Well, Triel has always been a prideful creature. he falled from grace because of his research of perfection. I don't know if this could be called sloth.
That's an awesome link Rip! The theological definition makes a lot more sense for Dispater.
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strange bug...
The problem with placing the Torment timeline is that the factions still exist while the Githzerai capital of Shra'kt'lor was destroyed many years ago. It would seem Torment was suppose to be set in the distant future but the existence of the factions as a major influence contradicts the Faction War canon.
Do a search on Torment and you can probably find the old discussion thread.
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Cool, so I was right. Sloth is a good sin for the Iron Arch-duke.
The game explicitly takes place in the 127th year of Factol Hashkar's reign, the same year as The Factol's Manifesto.
It's the fact that Dispater never leaves his tower (that is, sloth in the common sense of the word) that clinches the sloth label to me. His minions do all the work for even the most trivial tasks. I don't think he gets credit for forcing petitioners to rebuild the streets or snoop in peoples' windows. He personally is disinclined toward labor, so he delegates it to others. He is certainly disinclined toward doing works of good, though I agree that that in itself doesn't make him stand out among the Nine. It's the fact that he also avoids other obligations due to his habitual avoidance of risk or pain. Dispater is by far the most risk-averse of the archdevils.
Levistus is forced to be even more sessile than Dispater, but this is by curse and not by inclination.
Mammon is greedy, which isn't the opposite of being charitable. Charity is defined as love for your neighbor and the Divine, and isn't absolutely incompatible with avarice, though obviously they don't work together well or Avarice wouldn't be a sin. You can crave material goods and simultaneously feel enough love toward your fellows to care for their needs and desires as well, although obviously Mammon does not. Sloth, however, is the opposite of the charitable impulse.
Anyway, as I said, I don't think the Lords of the Nine map to the Seven Deadly Sins directly. There are nine of them and only seven sins to go around, for one thing. Their personalities are complex enough that you could make a case that Mammon is Pride (only before the Reckoning) and Baalzebul is Sloth, or Baalzebul as Gluttony and Glasya as Sloth, or the Hag Countess as Wrath and Levistus as gluttony or many other possible combinations.
Anyway, as I said, I don't think the Lords of the Nine map to the Seven Deadly Sins directly. There are nine of them and only seven sins to go around, for one thing.
10 if you count Fierna and Belial separately.
Maybe there are more than Seven Deadly Sins. Those seven could just be the ones that some clueless back-water prime world could comprehend.
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EDIT:
The game explicitly takes place in the 127th year of Factol Hashkar's reign, the same year as The Factol's Manifesto.
Is that in-game somewhere because I don't see it in the manual?
That is true. But charitiy is also " the joy for the happiness of other people".
In this view, it is the perfect opposite of envy, that is the " sorrow for the happiness of other people".
Could be. I'm just going by what the encyclopedia said.
Here is several ideas for your cult Armoury 99: they could worship remnant or aspect of Baron Molikroth who was lord of eight layer and he was described as morbidly obese man.
I know, he was fake persona invented by Mephistopholes, but on planes belief is everything so trough worship this persona become real entity.
Also instead of using Archdevils you could invent your own "Lord of Gluttony" by using some of lesser Devil Nobles that make courtiers of Archdevils courts.
Simply give the devil few levels of "Fiend of Blasphemy" prestige class and flesh it out.
But you could go for something new: like giant "mature" (Tales from Infinite Staircase) Nuperibo seated on throne.
Or you could use something weird: like Incarnate of Gluttony (PSMMA:1) encased in crystal box.
One-eyed, one-horned, flying, purple people eater says: "Monsters are nature's way for keeping XPs fresh."
Thanks for the lovely debate everyone!
mmm... think I'll probably go with a lesser demon or devil. I especially like the irony of primer cultists worshipping a giant nupperibo.
Gluttony is the over-indulgence and over-consumption of food, drink, or intoxicants to the point of waste.
With my group we arrived to this conclusion about the archdevils, but obiouvsly it is not official.
Zariel/ Bel= Despair
Dispater= Sloth
Mammon= Greed
Fierna= Lust
Levistus= Wrath
Malagarde/Glasya= Gluttony
Beelzebub= Pride
Mephistopeles= Envy
Asmodeus= Hate
While for the other 8 archdevils is quite simple, Glasya was the only one left for the rule of princess of Gluttony (I think more focused on the intoxicant aspect )