The Lord of Gluttony?

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Armoury99's picture
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The Lord of Gluttony?

Quick question, oh mighty brains of Planewalker:

In PS cannon (both 2nd and 3rd), which devil is most associated with gluttony? What I'm looking for is a patron 'creature' (preferably a Devil but anything that's not an actual deity) for a secret society of sophistacated gluttons. They transcend faction as a group, although obviously there's a fair number of Sensates among them.

Cheers

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The Lord of Gluttony?

Gluttony is the over-indulgence and over-consumption of food, drink, or intoxicants to the point of waste.

With my group we arrived to this conclusion about the archdevils, but obiouvsly it is not official.

Zariel/ Bel= Despair
Dispater= Sloth
Mammon= Greed
Fierna= Lust
Levistus= Wrath
Malagarde/Glasya= Gluttony
Beelzebub= Pride
Mephistopeles= Envy
Asmodeus= Hate

While for the other 8 archdevils is quite simple, Glasya was the only one left for the rule of princess of Gluttony (I think more focused on the intoxicant aspect ) Smiling

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The Lord of Gluttony?

I personally try to avoid pinning the seven deadly sins to Lords of the Nine, I feel that it limits them too much. The most gluttonous is probably Baalzebul (building new cities, being wasteful, and ruining his layer, etc.)

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The Lord of Gluttony?

Hm - I've got a very different view on him - I would have put him at Pride.

420
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The Lord of Gluttony?

'Felenthir Enthelion' wrote:
Dispater= Sloth
Considering the intense paranoia, constantly changing city layout and city within a city aspect I would say that Dispater is the farthest from the concept of sloth.

-420

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The Lord of Gluttony?

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I personally try to avoid pinning the seven deadly sins to Lords of the Nine, I feel that it limits them too much.

It can be a limitation or it can't, it dipends on how you play it, I think.
Baator was created on the base of Dante's hell, so I think it shouldn't be a big problem to make similar associations with the deadly sins. Anyway, surely is not canon.

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I've got a very different view on him - I would have put him at Pride.

Sure, I totally agree. After all, he is a fallen archon.

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Considering the intense paranoia, constantly changing city layout and city within a city aspect I would say that Dispater is the farthest from the concept of sloth.

Sure?

A very common error is to think that slot= lazyness. It is not like that.

Sloth is " the indolence in the practice of good deeds" that is the dew of every human being" (sorry for my English" Smiling )

Also, Dispeter is paranoiac, yes, but it never moves out of his tower. This immobility is what made me think of sloth.

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The Lord of Gluttony?

I would say that each archdevil should be asociated with several "sins" that they use as their signature tools in temptation of mortals. Thus giving them some sort of portfolio.

For example: Bel could be asociated both with despair, wrath and hate. Wich sould suit him fine since he is warlord and that sins could be tied to war.

Also they described type of fiend (devil) that look like obese gigants without faces with gapping holes for mouth.
They were asociated with gluttony but I cannot remember source where they introduced them (think it was "Book of Vile Deeds"). They called them Garganthuans or Gargathanzu or something. Puzzled

EDIT: Ghargatula, they were called Ghargatula.

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The Lord of Gluttony?

The Lords of the Nine don't generally map to single themes very well. There are exceptions, but they're pretty complex, which is partly a consequence of all the different ways they've been handled over the years.

I'd probably associate Mammon with both gluttony and greed, personally. He also represents disease.

420
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The Lord of Gluttony?

'Felenthir Enthelion' wrote:

A very common error is to think that slot= lazyness. It is not like that.

Sloth is " the indolence in the practice of good deeds" that is the dew of every human being" (sorry for my English" Smiling )

From Merriam Webster

Quote:

sloth
Pronunciation:
\ˈslȯth, ˈsläth also ˈslōth\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural sloths
Etymology:
Middle English slouthe, from slow slow
Date:
12th century

1 a: disinclination to action or labor : indolence b: spiritual apathy and inactivity

Quote:
in·do·lence Pronunciation: \ˈin-də-lən(t)s\ Function: noun Date: 1710

: inclination to laziness : sloth

-420

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The Lord of Gluttony?

The meaning is slightly different when applied to deadly sins, however, in Catholic theology.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14057c.htm

I agree that sloth fits Dispater very well, though he is not the personification of it.

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The Lord of Gluttony?

I disagree on Sloth being tied to Dispater.

Considering how he's constantly rearranging and managing a layer-sized city and taking countermeasures to thwart (imagined or real) plots and assassination attempts against him, I’d say he’s a pretty productive lord of the nine.
The fact that he doesn't leave his tower doesn't mean he's inactive or lazy – he’s about as vigilant as they come. To me that doesn’t fit with slacking off.

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The Lord of Gluttony?

'Dunamin' wrote:
I disagree on Sloth being tied to Dispater.

Considering how he's constantly rearranging and managing a layer-sized city and taking countermeasures to thwart (imagined or real) plots and assassination attempts against him, I’d say he’s a pretty productive lord of the nine.
The fact that he doesn't leave his tower doesn't mean he's inactive or lazy – he’s about as vigilant as they come. To me that doesn’t fit with slacking off.

Read the stuff in the links Rip van Wormer posted. Sloth is being used in a theological context, which alters its meaning. The only real issue I see is that Sloth is one of the broader "deadly sins", and could be applied to just about any of the Lords of the Nine, since it is basically about finding good too difficult or actively repulsive.

On a side note, the Catholic Encyclopedia is a badass piece of reference material, both in general, and for PS.

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The Lord of Gluttony?

'Archdukechocula' wrote:
'Dunamin' wrote:
I disagree on Sloth being tied to Dispater.

Considering how he's constantly rearranging and managing a layer-sized city and taking countermeasures to thwart (imagined or real) plots and assassination attempts against him, I’d say he’s a pretty productive lord of the nine.
The fact that he doesn't leave his tower doesn't mean he's inactive or lazy – he’s about as vigilant as they come. To me that doesn’t fit with slacking off.

Read the stuff in the links Rip van Wormer posted. Sloth is being used in a theological context, which alters its meaning. The only real issue I see is that Sloth is one of the broader "deadly sins", and could be applied to just about any of the Lords of the Nine, since it is basically about finding good too difficult or actively repulsive.


I did read it. I still don't see how sloth applies to Dispater in this context any more than it does to other lords (as you also touch on). In fact, various parts make me think of specific traits that can be attributed to other Lords of the Nine:
Quote:
The narrow way stretches wearily before him and his soul grows sluggish and torpid at the thought of the painful life journey. The idea of right living inspires not joy but disgust, because of its laboriousness.

This part might apply to Baalzebul when he was known as Triel - the ways of righteousness grew weary on him, and he took the "less hindering" way of tyranny. Dispater, on the other hand, despises "right living" (as in being Good) but it’s not because of a need to be laborious.

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St. Thomas completes his definition of sloth by saying that it is torpor in the presence of spiritual good which is Divine good. In other words, a man is then formally distressed at the prospect of what he must do for God to bring about or keep intact his friendship with God. In this sense sloth is directly opposed to charity.
This part might apply to Mammon - he's pretty much the opposite of the charitable type, and he proved too unconcerned with preserving his good standing with his superior, that he dared take his (Asmodeus') daughter as consort for a while. As to Dispater, torpor is hardly a defining trait - considering how he spies on allies and enemies alike all the time, he can't really be credited with a lack of energy.

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The Lord of Gluttony?

and when do the events of Torment take place? I know it´s uncanonical, but still...

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The Lord of Gluttony?

'Dunamin' wrote:
Considering how he's constantly rearranging and managing a layer-sized city and taking countermeasures to thwart (imagined or real) plots and assassination attempts against him, I’d say he’s a pretty productive lord of the nine.

I wouldn't call Dispater productive. All that rearranging and repair of Dis is pointless toil.

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I wouldn't call Dispater productive. All that rearranging and repair of Dis is pointless toil.

I strongly agree. He is something like paralized by his paranoia.

Quote:
This part might apply to Baalzebul when he was known as Triel

Well, Triel has always been a prideful creature. he falled from grace because of his research of perfection. I don't know if this could be called sloth.

420
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The Lord of Gluttony?

That's an awesome link Rip! The theological definition makes a lot more sense for Dispater.

-420

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The Lord of Gluttony?

strange bug...

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'Aina Grey' wrote:
and when do the events of Torment take place? I know it´s uncanonical, but still...
There was a lengthy discussion on these forums awhile back.

The problem with placing the Torment timeline is that the factions still exist while the Githzerai capital of Shra'kt'lor was destroyed many years ago. It would seem Torment was suppose to be set in the distant future but the existence of the factions as a major influence contradicts the Faction War canon.

Do a search on Torment and you can probably find the old discussion thread.

-420

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'420' wrote:
That's an awesome link Rip! The theological definition makes a lot more sense for Dispater.

-420

Cool, so I was right. Smiling Sloth is a good sin for the Iron Arch-duke.

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The Lord of Gluttony?

'Aina Grey' wrote:
and when do the events of Torment take place? I know it´s uncanonical, but still...

The game explicitly takes place in the 127th year of Factol Hashkar's reign, the same year as The Factol's Manifesto.

It's the fact that Dispater never leaves his tower (that is, sloth in the common sense of the word) that clinches the sloth label to me. His minions do all the work for even the most trivial tasks. I don't think he gets credit for forcing petitioners to rebuild the streets or snoop in peoples' windows. He personally is disinclined toward labor, so he delegates it to others. He is certainly disinclined toward doing works of good, though I agree that that in itself doesn't make him stand out among the Nine. It's the fact that he also avoids other obligations due to his habitual avoidance of risk or pain. Dispater is by far the most risk-averse of the archdevils.

Levistus is forced to be even more sessile than Dispater, but this is by curse and not by inclination.

Mammon is greedy, which isn't the opposite of being charitable. Charity is defined as love for your neighbor and the Divine, and isn't absolutely incompatible with avarice, though obviously they don't work together well or Avarice wouldn't be a sin. You can crave material goods and simultaneously feel enough love toward your fellows to care for their needs and desires as well, although obviously Mammon does not. Sloth, however, is the opposite of the charitable impulse.

Anyway, as I said, I don't think the Lords of the Nine map to the Seven Deadly Sins directly. There are nine of them and only seven sins to go around, for one thing. Their personalities are complex enough that you could make a case that Mammon is Pride (only before the Reckoning) and Baalzebul is Sloth, or Baalzebul as Gluttony and Glasya as Sloth, or the Hag Countess as Wrath and Levistus as gluttony or many other possible combinations.

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:

Anyway, as I said, I don't think the Lords of the Nine map to the Seven Deadly Sins directly. There are nine of them and only seven sins to go around, for one thing.


10 if you count Fierna and Belial separately.

Maybe there are more than Seven Deadly Sins. Those seven could just be the ones that some clueless back-water prime world could comprehend.

-420

EDIT:

'ripvanwormer' wrote:

The game explicitly takes place in the 127th year of Factol Hashkar's reign, the same year as The Factol's Manifesto.


Is that in-game somewhere because I don't see it in the manual?

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'420' wrote:
Is that in-game somewhere because I don't see it in the manual?
Yes, see this post. It's in a diary you find in the Mausoleum.

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:
Charity is defined[/url] as love for your neighbor and the Divine

That is true. But charitiy is also " the joy for the happiness of other people".
In this view, it is the perfect opposite of envy, that is the " sorrow for the happiness of other people".

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Could be. I'm just going by what the encyclopedia said.

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The Lord of Gluttony?

Here is several ideas for your cult Armoury 99: they could worship remnant or aspect of Baron Molikroth who was lord of eight layer and he was described as morbidly obese man.
I know, he was fake persona invented by Mephistopholes, but on planes belief is everything so trough worship this persona become real entity.

Also instead of using Archdevils you could invent your own "Lord of Gluttony" by using some of lesser Devil Nobles that make courtiers of Archdevils courts.

Simply give the devil few levels of "Fiend of Blasphemy" prestige class and flesh it out.

But you could go for something new: like giant "mature" (Tales from Infinite Staircase) Nuperibo seated on throne.
Or you could use something weird: like Incarnate of Gluttony (PSMMA:1) encased in crystal box.

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The Lord of Gluttony?

Thanks for the lovely debate everyone!

mmm... think I'll probably go with a lesser demon or devil. I especially like the irony of primer cultists worshipping a giant nupperibo. Laughing out loud

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