The Lady of Pain and "stats"

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

A quick question for those who are opposed to giving the Lady "stats": are you objecting because then the mystery would be gone, or are you saying that the Lady is/ought to be invincible? The way I see I, just because we don't know what the Lady's "stats" are/should be, doesn't mean She doesn't HAVE any! The Lady isn't God (for one thing, She isn't all-knowing, as per "harbinger House", nor all-powerful, as per "Die, Vecna, Die!). My point is that even if She can't be killed by a deity, doesn't mean there's not something out there SOMEWHERE that could lay Her low... even if the PCs were allowed to do Her in, there would still be beings in the Multiverse more powerful than them... and isn't the Serpent on a par with Her in terms of power?

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

Perhaps, but it seems to me that it's the nature of Sigil and the multiverse that gives the Lady her power. As for Vecena, and other things like that, you can say she did know and had an unkown reason for letting things happen the way they do. Personally, I'd not touch the Lady. It's like taking away the fireballs falling from the sky in Avernus.

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

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are you objecting because then the mystery would be gone
This is the one and only reason that the Lady must never be touched. She must remain an enigma, the one true mystery in Planescape.

Technically she is above deity status and beyond game statistics because she is the DM's avatar.

-420

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

The primary reason the Lady doesn't need and shouldn't be given stats is because the Lady is more an aspect of the setting than a personification of *anything*. It's like saying the "Sky" needs stats. Don't be fooled by the humanoid shape - Her Serenity isn't a person. It is a DM tool and setting dressing.

Now mind you that is not to say that a DM can't have fun with it in his own campaign - as a setting tool that's exactly what She's there for. But it would be something within that DM's own game (and I would hope the DM would have more fun with it than just letting someone cack Her with a well placed fireball or some such nonsense).

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

Nobody knows if the Lady of Pain can be killed, destroyed, or whatever. She can, seemingly, be threatened with such, and will respond to those threats. That's one thing that happened in Faction War.

The Lady of Pain's lack of formal statistics--hit points, spell lists, and the like--is ironically one of the reasons not giving her statistics is so important. Nobody knows exactly what her powers are. As local talk goes, though obviously no one can prove it, she bars gods from the city and controls all the portals. Is that because she's far beyond even the gods in terms of powers and the very fabric of the multiverse is as her plaything? Maybe. Maybe it's an effect of some bond she has with the city. Maybe it's all a sham. Maybe the only reason she stays in power is because she convinces everyone that it's futile to test her.

Besides that, people who go against her interests tend to disappear. "Tend to" is significant, because she doesn't always respond immediately, or even respond at all. Again, her method of putting down threats is an overly theatrical public flaying or a grandiose banishment to some dismal prison-plane. Common knowledge says that she's really that powerful, but
some of the more fanciful theories depict her as several piggybacking ratatosks in an elaborate disguise.

So, in a contradictory sort of way, the only thing that can be said for sure about the Lady's powers is that they're unknown. The only thing that is always said about her origins is that they're unknown. The only thing that can ever be said consistently about her at all is the mystery of her. That's why it's such a taboo subject for Planescapers.

Even the gods aren't all-knowing: they get betrayed all the time. Even the gods aren't all-powerful: a trip to the Astral Plane reveals their horrific corpses. But, in a setting where the characters tromp through the realms of those gods, some mechanic must exist where the mighty cannot trample over the PCs with impunity. That's precisely how Planescape allows planar adventuring at low levels but other settings do not. That's why one of Planescape's most important tenets is that there's always a bigger fish.

But is there a bigger fish? In my campaign, probably not. The Lady of Pain serves as a nice "cap fish," setting a standard for who's badder than whom. It doesn't necessarily mean that she weilds the same world-shaping powers as the gods (though maybe she does), but it does mean that she establishes Sigil as a safe haven for the campaign. It's important to have the Lady of Pain be a mystery because it frees her to fend off threats from over-ambitious powers without needing to explain why she, without anyone able to oppose her, doesn't make a bid for rulership herself. She gives the solution without becoming part of the problem. No one has to be bigger than the Lady because she doesn't need babysitting.

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

Sometimes the smallest and the most insignificant people play the bigger role in everything (take Frodo in LotR or Oz in The Wizard of Oz)

The wrong side of everything is defining persons or entities by their power itself.

There is also knowledge (which is the most dangerous thing in multiverse because it allows body to have and control a power) and the belief which shouldn't be defined by power because it defines the power (and the Powers in their full splendor).
There is also the option to use(or abuse) the power which can shape various different outcomes or different uses of that power.

And the Lady of Pain doesn't have to be an personified Entity herself but an Image of Sigil or the entire multiverse.
For my 2 cents there is a greater reason behind Lady's secrecy, why she doesn't want any believers. She would/could become an entity, be given a new definiton and someone could gain control of her. Which would prevent her of keeping balance in Sigil.

There is also one other thing, if her power would be defined that definition would limit it, so for the story's sake it shouldn't be defined because it would limit the whole Planescape Campaign Setting.

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

In WoTC book: Planar Handbook, they state lady´s aligment: it´s LN. And that is one piece of mystery forever lost. And it could wery well be begining of end, becaouse the thing that scares me most is: Wizards could at anytime write Lady´s stats in a blink of an eye if they like (for the sake of some crummy adventure) and they would not even care.

In short: anyone can give Lady "official" stats, but is it realy worth it; turning her into "run of the mill" high level monster for epic PC to bash, that is.

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

An argument for The Lady having deity-level power is something I think I remember from PS2E that states that a Power has ultimate authority in their home realm. There's no way to see a Power at home unless they want you to, and they are usually able to simply expel anyone hostile from their realm.

As for The Lady being LN, that's just rediculous. Her unpredictable nature shows that chaotic side of her as well. And what's she doing running a realm in the midddle of the True Neutral plane unless she is too. Where the heck do they see her being only Lawful? I'm feeling free to ignore that "official" ruling.

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I still seem to only have the option to quote my own posts, have to quote manually:

Quote:
Where the heck do they see her being only Lawful? I'm feeling free to ignore that "official" ruling.

Planar Handbook (pg. 142)

Quote:
Authority Figures: The Lady of Pain (LN female, unknown race)

Well, at least they got one thing right, but "her" true gender is also unknown.

Think of it this way, giving The Lady of Pain any stats is a contradiction. What better way to represent the ruler of the Plane of Concordant Opposition? (Or at least its capital city.)

-420

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

(Still working on that bug)

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re

And, of course, there is the very sad truth that once you give an entity stats - any entity - some barmy players are going to get it in their brain box to try and take her down. With enough power, enough people owing you favors and enough ingenuity, pcs can topple anything ... and do you really want that to be an option?

The Bladed Lady is a story element, flavor for the setting. If you want a campaign that evolves around her being taken down, create one - no need to give the item, spell, or whatever dark one uses to knock her down, stats: simply state, that's its power - created to unseat the "ruler" of Sigil. (or any ruler of anything, whatever you want) If you want it to have side powers, stat those up as you like, but the core effect should be beyond mechanical deffinition.

It is like the Dark Powers of Ravenloft - once they started heavily suggesting that these "DPs" were actually gods, (or even more than one god) then all sorts of problems arose. Now one can hardly escape this belief and the idiocy that goes along with it. If a person wants to define the Lady in their games, let them, but to put anything concreate down in writing is to set up every fan for a fall.

(I have one pc who can't stand the idea that I've not decided anything solid about the Lady of Pain - he insists that I, as gm, have to know - even if no one else ever finds out)

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

Yeah, the Lady isn't Lawful Neutral. She just isn't. It sort of makes sense if you only have a basic idea of the setting, but to a knowledgable planescaper, it's absurd. The Lady is practically Neutrality incarnate. She could be Lawful, Chaotic, Evil, or Good, but the point is that she's none of them (or possibly all of them). You could even argue that the Lady, like other cosmic forces, doesn't have an alignment at all.

Likewise, not only will we never know her stats, but it's entirely possible that she doesn't even have stats. After all, if she could be killed by anything approaching conventional means, some barmy probably would have done it by now. Besides, the Lady is as much an idea as a person, and how do you stat an idea?

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The Lady of Pain's "Stats"

I agree that the Lady should remain a mystery, don't misunderstand, my point was that stats have been provided for ultra-powerful being such as the Powers since way back in AD&D (see any version of the "Deities and Demigods" book). An argument could be made that if these mighty beings can nonetheless be provided with game stats, that the same could (and should) be done with Overpowers, the Lady, the Serpent, etc... The reverse is also true: if the Lady doesn't need stats, why give stats to Odin, Zeus, Pelor, etc... giving them stats lets the PCs figure out how powerful they are and how to kill them! I understand that you want there to be beings so powerful that the PCs can never defeat them, but I thought God filled that role nicely (You can't beat Him(Her?), you can't find Him unless He feels like it, etc, etc...) Yes, it would bite if the PCs actually killed off the Lady of Pain, but it's not like the game could'nt go on (remember, before Planescape was published, She didn't feature in ANYONE'S game, so if the game could go on before She existed, it could go on without Her, too. (By the way, I too think that the listing of Her Serenity as "Lawful Neutral" should be ignored... the Dabus are True Neutral, so if anything the Lady is likely also True Neutral!) Anyway, if you gave the Lady about a million hit dice, nobody could beat Her without cheating, anyway!

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

'Anime Fan' wrote:
The reverse is also true: if the Lady doesn't need stats, why give stats to Odin, Zeus, Pelor, etc... giving them stats lets the PCs figure out how powerful they are and how to kill them!
The main difference is that the "Powers" are still just NPCs while The Lady of Pain is a game mechanic.

-420

PS Yeah the quotes work again! Thanks Clueless!

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

I think you're still missing the point, Anime Fan. The Lady of Pain and the setting of Planescape are inextricably linked. Other campaign settings, including the generic 3.5e D&D multiverse, often include both Sigil and even the Lady. However, their presence is not central to those campaigns and thus easily removed. For those other settings, the Lady could very well be a very tough monster or a deity with stats. For Planescape, however, she should always remain a mystery. Not just a deus ex machina and DM's handy helper, she is a symbol for the setting. Planescape would not just be weakened by her revelation or death, it would cease to be itself, devolving into just another planehopping campaign.

Would Planescape be Planescape without, say, General of Gehenna, or if he had stats? Yes. It would be slightly weaker in terms of flavour, but it would nevertheless remain itself. Just as taking Drizzd Do'Urden out of the Forgotten Realms would weaken it but not change it completely. Changing, simplifying, or discarding the history of the setting, or Abeir-Toril itself, would be unforgivable. It is the defining feature of the Realms! Likewise, explaining or killing the Lady, or Sigil for that matter, would be likewise unforgivable. They are the defining features of Planescape, along with its penchant for the philosophical.

The major difference, however, is that the generic 3.5e multiverse is based very closely on the Planescape one. Granted, Planescape itself is based on earlier versions of the multiverse with changes, but it attempted to standardize and link together the other settings, claiming the Outer Planes for itself. WotC continued from the Planescape multiverse, but it removed some of the features that defined it. Thus, they were able to call it something other than Planescape while still using any of the details that it cultivated and changing or removing others completely. That is where the confusion stems from... people think that if they go into the Outer Planes, they are basically playing in the Planescape setting. That is not so, not necessarily. Just because there are orcs does not mean that we are in Middle Earth.

That is where, in my opinion, Planewalker comes in. It retains the ideas behind Planescape and only converts them into the 'new' 3.5e ruleset. Yes, many of us often borrow from some of the new material, particularly the Fiendish Codexes, but in my case, and I'm sure that many others here would agree, the material we borrow is only that which adds to the setting rather than retconning it. Every DM, of course, is and should be able to change any 'official' setting to his or her desire, but something can only take so many changes before ceasing to be itself.

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

'Anime Fan' wrote:
My point was that stats have been provided for ultra-powerful being such as the Powers since way back in AD&D (see any version of the "Deities and Demigods" book). An argument could be made that if these mighty beings can nonetheless be provided with game stats, that the same could (and should) be done with Overpowers, the Lady, the Serpent, etc... The reverse is also true: if the Lady doesn't need stats, why give stats to Odin, Zeus, Pelor, etc... giving them stats lets the PCs figure out how powerful they are and how to kill them!

Um... ok, maybe I have a poor recollection of 2nd ed's Deities books but in general they didn't have stats. They gave church information, spells, portfolios, all of *that* material. But nothing more than an avatar ever received stats. And under 2nd ed that actually *was* one of the driving reasons behind Powers not receiving stats - too many godkillers in 1st. If someone whose got their copy in front of them can check that for me just so I know I'm not barm?

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Powers, avatars, and stats...

In "Deities and Demiogods" 1st and 2nd edition (aka "Legends and Lore") the actual gods WERE given stats, as they also were in "Monster Mythology"... however, in the 2nd edition Forgotten Realms book "Faiths and avatars", only stats for avatars were given... those stats were of the same level of power as the stats for actual powers given in the afore-mentioned books, indicating that someone at TSR clearly felt the previous stats were much too weak and only suited for avatars (I agree). The new 3E stats for deities are much more powerful, and I don't see too many PCs overthrowing the gods anythime soon, unless they have a Monty Haul DM... plus, the avatars are more powerful too, and how could a PC tell whether he were fighting the actual god (unlikely) or just an avatar? (Incidentally, it might be fun to run a game where some fool of a berk were allowed to think he'd offed the Lady of Pain, only to discover that he'd only bumped off a avatar or aspect of some sort... and now the Lady's NOT HAPPY...! (And hey, maybe the Lady people sometimes see on the streets of Sigil IS an avatar!!!)

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

'Anime Fan' wrote:
An argument could be made that if these mighty beings can nonetheless be provided with game stats, that the same could (and should) be done with the Serpent

Ah, yes. I wonder how many hit points "crazy" has.

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

Here is another reason why Lady does not have stats: because two main features of PS is "Ideas and Mystery" of planes.
I mean: who has not created one idea or another about Lady origins (from Ratatosk and Miniature Giant Space Hamster to Poseidon s daughter theory and that she is one of Dark Powers of Ravenloft), and all of them has merit but some mysteries is not for knowing.
Lady of Pain is exactly that: she represents that creative process of idea, an urge to know the unknown and will to go trough the portal into unknown,
and it would not be mysterious (not to mention unfun) if all secrets are written.

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

The lack of stats is one of the many things that makes the Lady of Pain the special being that she is. There are hundreds of powers in the planes, but only one Lady. She stands out, even when you don't know anything about Planescape.

Story time. Way back when I was a complete clueless, I didn't know who the General of Gehenna was. I couldn't name any of the 15 factions. Baazteu and Tieflings were demons and all demons were pretty much the same. I couldn't tell the difference between Mechanus and Mt. Celestia. But I did know that there was a city named Sigil and inside was an all-powerful being named the Lady of Pain.

The Lady of Pain was one of the first things I learned about the Planescape setting. I think stats would bring her down from her current status to just another god, especially when you know next-to-nothing about Planescape. Because The Lady isn't just another god, she's a lot more.

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

'Anime Fan' wrote:
In "Deities and Demiogods" 1st and 2nd edition (aka "Legends and Lore") the actual gods WERE given stats, as they also were in "Monster Mythology"... however, in the 2nd edition Forgotten Realms book "Faiths and avatars", only stats for avatars were given...

No. You're mistaken. The gods, for the most part, were not given stats in 2nd edition Legends & Lore, nor in Monster Mythology. Only avatars.

A few demigods got stats for their "true forms," because they were considered to be too minor to have avatars (Hercules and the Dragon Kings, for example, and Iuz). They're exceptions, and nothing above demigod status got that treatment.

This was universally true throughout 2nd edition, and actually began before 2e even came out, in the Greyhawk Adventures hardcover. As a rule, 2nd edition gods didn't have stats. They were considered to be unkillable by anything of lesser rank.

That was the cumulation of a trend throughout 1e. Deities & Demigods gods were stronger than the 0e Gods, Demigods, and Heroes gods. The World of Greyhawk gods were stronger than that, and the 1e Manual of the Planes gods were stronger still. When Greyhawk Adventures came out, they decided that gods were simply beyond stats, too powerful for game rules to measure. They stuck with this consistently until 3rd edition Deities & Demigods was published.

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As long as we're leaving the Lady a mystery...

I've seen a lot of guesses as to the Lady of Pain's "real" identity, so here's another for you barmies: The Lady is an avatar of Nyarlathotep!!! (And YES, I know gods can't enter Sigil, but since when has Nyarlathotep ever followed the normal laws of reality? Oh, and the idiot-god Azathoth inhabits the hollow core of the Spire....when he's not visiting the Far Realm, that is!)

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

'Anime Fan' wrote:
I've seen a lot of guesses as to the Lady of Pain's "real" identity, so here's another for you barmies: The Lady is an avatar of Nyarlathotep!

Yog-Sothoth would be much more appropriate as the guardian of a city of portals.

"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. "
—H. P. Lovecraft, "The Dunwich Horror"

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Past, present, and future, ne? You mean like Rowan Darkwood's fate?

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Past, present, and future, ne? You mean like Rowan Darkwood's fate?

Yep, that soud´s like ol´ Yoggie to me.

Maybe Lady is female manifestation of Yog-Sothoth (male is called Tawil at´umr wich Yoggie uses when he wishes to talk to mortals, and Mythos dieties have allways had more than one avatar), and the Sigil is actualy great city of ancients in land of Kadath (wich is located on imposibly tall mountain).

This is OK idea if you want to Cthulhu mythos play mayor part in Planescape. In that case far relam is much closer than would anyone think or like.

Oh, and would it be Ok for Yog-Sothoth to "live" on astral/ethereal since: he resides in space between spaces (and all other sleeping ancient ones-Dead gods).

Ia, Ia Cthulhu fthagn!!! Nyar!!!

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'Squaff' wrote:
Sigil is actualy great city of ancients in land of Kadath (wich is located on imposibly tall mountain).

You mean Sigil is Leng? Where are all the bloated moon-toad people and goat footed slaves?

-420

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'420' wrote:
'Squaff' wrote:
Sigil is actualy great city of ancients in land of Kadath (wich is located on imposibly tall mountain).

You mean Sigil is Leng? Where are all the bloated moon-toad people and goat footed slaves?

-420

Slaadi and Dabus?

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You mean Sigil is Leng?

Correct me if I´m wrong, but I think that Leng is located in Himalayahs, Earth (Necronomicon says it was place where Ancients first landed on Earth).
Unknown Kadath on the other side is located in Earth Dreamlands, and it was place where gods and ancients meet, but Kadath could be Dreamlands version of Leng.
You never know what to expect with those non-euclidian, extradimensional places and cities.

Quote:
Slaadi and Dabus?

Why not? Maybe moon-beasts are some older, more primorial version of Slaadi and Dabus are planar descendants of Tcho-Tcho people from Leng. (They have horns, maybe they still got hoofs under those robes).

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'Squaff' wrote:
Correct me if I´m wrong, but I think that Leng is located in Himalayahs, Earth (Necronomicon says it was place where Ancients first landed on Earth). Unknown Kadath on the other side is located in Earth Dreamlands, and it was place where gods and ancients meet, but Kadath could be Dreamlands version of Leng.

See, I've always wondered about this myself. At the Mountains of Madness implies that both sites are in Antarctica, although Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath places them in the Dreamlands.

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See, I've always wondered about this myself. At the Mountains of Madness implies that both sites are in Antarctica, although Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath places them in the Dreamlands.

Yes, that puzzels lots of people becaouse sometimes they confuse Ancient Ones (alien entitets with god like powers: Cthulhu, Hastur, etc...) and Ancient THINGS (wich are alien race, and they were renamed by Chaosium into ELDER things to avoid confusion).

Secondly I think that city of Elder things on Antartica (and things built it after wars with other races and Cthulhu,) where they relocated after continents start to separate. It was last of their great cities before race went into decline.
Also, important Mythos sites (Leng, Kadath, City of Elder things, R´leyeh) could wery well exist on several planes in same time (maybe under different names), after all, on such sites walls of reality are thinnest (not to menton that time acts a bit odd), so I would not be suprised if Leng existed on Earth AND on Dreamlands.

But I think, I should roll sanity check now, Nyar!

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'Squaff' wrote:
Quote:
See, I've always wondered about this myself. At the Mountains of Madness implies that both sites are in Antarctica, although Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath places them in the Dreamlands.

Yes, that puzzels lots of people becaouse sometimes they confuse Ancient Ones (alien entitets with god like powers: Cthulhu, Hastur, etc...) and Ancient THINGS (wich are alien race, and they were renamed by Chaosium into ELDER things to avoid confusion).

Speaking of confusion of terms... Eye-wink First off, the Ancient Ones are a separate group from the Great Old Ones, a term which always refers to Cthulhu and his brethren; the Ancient Ones are a group led by Tawil at'Umr (according to most an avatar of Yog-Sothoth), and are "Transmogrified beings who have passed through the Ultimate Gate guarded by Tawil at'Umr" (Encyclopedia Cthulhiana 2nd ed., pg. Cool. The Ancient Ones might be the Great Old Ones, but that is unproven theory.

Now, as for the Elder Things, that is by no means a term Chaosium created; that is the proper name of the race, as used by Lovecraft himself in At the Mountains of Madness. Now, the confusing bit is that both these creatures and the Great Old Ones are called simply the "Old Ones"--the Great Old Ones in "The Call of Cthulhu," the Elder Things also in Mountains. They aren't the only entities and creatures called "Old Ones" in the Mythos, though, and the term has also been applied to creatures associated with Yog-Sothoth ("The Dunwich Horror"), the people of K'n-yan ("The Mound"), and a group of beings that kept the Deep Ones in check ("The Shadow Over Innsmouth").

And--apologies for taking the thread even further away from the topic of the Lady and the possibility of statting Her up. I was just excited to see something about which I had enough knowledge that I felt confident posting about it, heh...

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'Blind Azathoth' wrote:
And--apologies for taking the thread even further away from the topic of the Lady and the possibility of statting Her up. I was just excited to see something about which I had enough knowledge that I felt confident posting about it, heh...
You have my thanks for your post as I was just about to pull down all my Lovecraft novels to double-check before posting the same thing.

-420

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Threads grow Smiling That's why they're threads... though if the O.Poster still wants to focus on his original question one can always spin off a new thread and link to it. Eye-wink

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'Squaff' wrote:
Quote:
See, I've always wondered about this myself. At the Mountains of Madness implies that both sites are in Antarctica, although Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath places them in the Dreamlands.

Yes, that puzzels lots of people becaouse sometimes they confuse Ancient Ones (alien entitets with god like powers: Cthulhu, Hastur, etc...) and Ancient THINGS (wich are alien race, and they were renamed by Chaosium into ELDER things to avoid confusion).

Secondly I think that city of Elder things on Antartica (and things built it after wars with other races and Cthulhu,) where they relocated after continents start to separate. It was last of their great cities before race went into decline.
Also, important Mythos sites (Leng, Kadath, City of Elder things, R´leyeh) could wery well exist on several planes in same time (maybe under different names), after all, on such sites walls of reality are thinnest (not to menton that time acts a bit odd), so I would not be suprised if Leng existed on Earth AND on Dreamlands.

But I think, I should roll sanity check now, Nyar!

I didn't mean the city of the Old Ones they explored in Mountains, but the city on the horizon, that even the Old Ones were afraid of. Although, admittedly, I think the narrator just assumed that city must be unknown Kadath.

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

Mutants and Masterminds (a game I've been playing a lot lately) has the concept of a Power Level X being, meaning that the character/creature has whatever stats or abilities were needed for the story. Like Mxyzptlk or whatever his name was, the Cosmic Imp. That's what I see the Lady of Pain as, as equal parts setting/plot device and mysterious enigmanic character. I would freeform any mechanical representations of her to fit the situation of how Sigil is doing. It's also possible that given on the circumstances the Lady might have several different sets of stat writeups. That's probably how I would handle it is to write up a seperate stat block to fit the needs for any set encounter if I was going to use stats.

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The Lady of Pain and "stats"

'Anime Fan' wrote:
In "Deities and Demiogods" 1st and 2nd edition (aka "Legends and Lore") the actual gods WERE given stats, as they also were in "Monster Mythology"... however, in the 2nd edition Forgotten Realms book "Faiths and avatars", only stats for avatars were given... those stats were of the same level of power as the stats for actual powers given in the afore-mentioned books, indicating that someone at TSR clearly felt the previous stats were much too weak and only suited for avatars (I agree).

'Rip' wrote:
No. You're mistaken. The gods, for the most part, were not given stats in 2nd edition Legends & Lore, nor in Monster Mythology. Only avatars.

Rip is absolutely correct on this one.
If you check the PS book, On Hallowed Ground (Worth its weight in Gold!), it specifically states that Gods only manifest avatars on the prime by an ancient accord to prevent the primes from being torn asunder in cosmic warfare. It also states that no mortal will ever defeat a god by sword and steel since only another Power can kill a Power or rend their realm asunder. Aside from killing all of a Powers worshipers and total annihilation of all references and images of the Power can a mortal hope to destroy one. Not an easy task once the Power realizes what some berk is up to.

Since in their Realm a Power has complete mastery of all its elements (including atmosphere - see Planescape Boxed Set, DM's Guide to the Planes) the idea of a Power being killed by a mortal is laughable. The true form of the Power has 'as many hit points as it wants' and an AC of 'you do not hit it on a 20'. An avatar, yes, could be defeated by a mortal but, like a broken nail, it simply stings the Power and does not defeat it.

'Jack of Tears' wrote:
And, of course, there is the very sad truth that once you give an entity stats - any entity - some barmy players are going to get it in their brain box to try and take her down. With enough power, enough people owing you favors and enough ingenuity, pcs can topple anything ... and do you really want that to be an option?

According to the Planar Seminar at Gen*Con back in 2001, the year the Manual of the Planes was released - whenever that was, that was the exact reason one of the panel members gave for not giving the Lady of Pain stats when an audience member asked about it.
"I did not want to recieve the phone call, 'My players just killed the Lady of Pain. Now, what?'"

'Jack of Tears' wrote:
It is like the Dark Powers of Ravenloft - once they started heavily suggesting that these "DPs" were actually gods, (or even more than one god) then all sorts of problems arose.

That was stricken from cannon faster than a Quickling with the runs...

'Squaff' wrote:
(from Ratatosk and Miniature Giant Space Hamster to Poseidon s daughter theory and that she is one of Dark Powers of Ravenloft)

That last one is a personal favorite...

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Avatars

You're right, of course... my bad! However, even an avatar as given in Deities and Demigods 3E could whip most any group of PCs without breaking a sweat, so I think the gods can rest easy, stats or no stats... find me a group of D&D player out there who claim to have beaten one of the gods listed in that book (except maybe Imhotep, but he's weaker than most, so he doesn't really count!) The Lady's stats would have to be off the board to be "accurate", so since the PCs or anyone else would be dead meat fighting Her, She doesn't really NEED stats (If She HAD them, a fight against Her might look something like this... Round 1: you all attack Her and do no damage, due to Her near-infinite AC, defenses, etc... Round 2: She kills you all or mazes you... end of combat! You need stats for THIS?!?)

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