The Illithid

Mind Flayers of Thoon are from MM5; definitely worth the read if you enjoy the Illithid and Far-Realm material (which, im guessing you can see, I really really do).

To be honest, one of the things that drew me to the Illithid was their means of existence- the return from far in the future and the creation of the Gith races.

On that note, if thats the case, where DID you have the Illthid coming from? I mean, I can consider alot of options, but Im kinda limited in what I would readily accept as 'better' than the time-travel idea.

Overall, I really dont think you CAN just leave the LoM material- you either have to include it or exclude it, or at least give an explanation. Otherwise a ton of questions are simply left unanswered, which (to people like me at least) is kind of a step down from just having something else be the truth of the matter (aside from dropping the LoM material).

According to LoM (as I remember it), the Mind Flayers eventually became so powerful that they were a threat to every creature on every plane in every means of existence- they made the frigging Blood War turn its attention; and that says ALOT if you ask me.

If they had reached that stage, I would think that, even after Ragnarok, they would have been a vastly powerful force to be reckoned with. And why wouldnt they simply enact the time-travel magics to escape Ragnarok?

Beyond that even, if the Flayers DID come from the future, then wouldnt they have already experienced Ragnarok and know when/how it was going to occur?

Id say that this wasnt the final event of the Illithids draining of the sun- instead that said event takes place even further in the future.

To simply leave it hanging is just.... meh. To me, it greatly dimishes the interest of the Flayers- one of their draws is their story and who they are; not just THAT they are, know what I mean?

They have an identity and at least some attempt must be made to preserve that identity if they are going to be included further- otherwise, honestly (and it pains me to say this), Id just as soon see them excluded altogether from UPS as having returned to the past once again.

It would be an injustice not maintain that inherent creepiness of the Flayers.

EDIT: Aside from LoM, where is the vast amount of material regarding the Flayers found? I mean, if not using the LoM material, where are the Mind Flayers supposed to have originated from?

Aliens? The Far-Realm? Some backward ass dietie's sick joke?

2nd EDIT:
Also, something thats bugged me for as long as I can remember:

Mind Flayers are entirely dependent upon humans for cerebremorphis (sp?), correct? As I understand it, their tadpoles CAN be implanted into non-humans, but the result is NOT a true mind flayer.

So, if thats the case, and the Flayers were really getting to be a problem... why didnt someone try to cut off their source of humans? Or, to an even greater extent, cut off humanity altogether.

This is something that would make especially good sense for the Gith; which I could see being a semi-catalyst for the Astral War.

Its just common sense- if your foe requires a singluar resource to replenish its numbers; why not remove that source? And, in this case, I HIGHLY doubt the Gith would give a damn if humanity dropped away into nothingness; would likely even welcome it as an end to the Illithid and a new, heavily underpopulated Multiverse.

To be honest, I MUCH prefer the time-travel story... as you said, the above scenario really dosnt make sense considering the circumstances... I think LoM was made for exactly that reason- to clear up the crappy history they had made for a race that eventually became a pretty nasty foe in a couple of settings (spell-jammer especially).

I understand that the MFs were not from LoM to begin with- its a relatively new book in terms of DnD. However, I personally think its the finest interpretation as far as making them a valueable race- before that, they were just some nasty thingys that ate brains; which quite frankly bores me to tears.

LoM details the aberations in a much different light- be they the time traveling illithid or the extra-terrestrial Neogi or the inter-dimensional Tsochar. That books gives aberations some manner of importance; which I think was a good way to do things- there should always be something beyond the God's creation, beyond even our idea of Nature's creation, at least in my mind of a Planescape style game.... then again, I dont think I see things as many do (infact, I know I dont).

My answer to that? Setting off a grenade is uncontrolled, wild, and very very dangerous- yet its still done, and can be repeated. While I know what you are saying and even, to some degree, agree with it; I dont necessarily think the MFs would- if trouble was coming, they would at least TRY that which had worked for them before.... and it may work.... or, it may go horribly horribly wrong and change the whole situation. Time travel is something Im big on, so I guess thats another aspect of the MF's I approve of; but theres no reason to assume that said ritual would go off as planned a second time- they could without a doubt TRY it; but their chances of succeding are iffy at best... still, an iffy chance is better than that theyd have as kalamari, hehe. And even if they fail, there would almost certainly be a SOME result.

If I may make a suggestion, and no offense is intended, but as someone who personally DOES really appreciate the mind flayers; I think its alil demeaning to have them be the ones to remove the sun and then leave it at that, and would honestly prefer to see them simply removed from that aspect if following the history you described- why not just have the suns burn out naturally? It keeps from getting under the skin of people like me with an affinity for that race, while still having an easily acceptible reason for the changes you described in the Changes to the Planes.

Seems kinda senseless to include them for that singular act and then disappear into obscurity- infact, seems to me like it was just a random inclusion of them based on the fact that its said that some within the race plot to blot out the sun, which Im sure there are at least a few races which would be capable of such a thing, if natural phenomenon would not suffice.

Now, I DO see what you mean (and agree) with the time-traveling altering the future- by going back into the past, they will alter events and essentially change the future (which is where they originally left from)... however, I dont think their arrival would be enough to completely change the scope of history-there would be heavy alterations, yes, but it would be the same game (something like playing multiple times through a console game that has plot changes based on dialogue choices- while there are likely to be some changes {perhaps even the end results being slightly different}, its still the same game and if youve played through to the end once, you almost certainly have a legup on the competition).

And even if they DID change the future; I dont see their actions being enough to insight Ragnarok- by which I mean, if they HAD lived into the future, theres no reason to think Ragnarok hadnt occured along that timeline as well- basically, I REALLY just dont think this should be the time in which the Mind Flayers attempt their sun-killing.... let this event be a natural phenomenon or a planar anomoly(perhaps spurned into happening sooner than nature intended by the time-hopping of the MFs; which would be different than what happened originally for the Mind Flayers- though, again, you apperantly dont want to deal with the whole time-travel aspect; which basically delegates MFs to nothing more threatening than other subterranean things like carrion crawlers and ropers); as opposed to ignoring one aspect of a race while incorporating another- especially considering you are ignoring an aspect of the race that makes it particularly interesting.

To put things simply- I dont think you and I will see eye to eye on the subject of the MFs involvement in future events. Thats not a bad thing, just different viewpoints, which are always good to have. Your view of the Far-Realm is alil.... I wanna say 'hokey', but well, lets just say it dosnt quite match mine, hehe. Whereas you have the idea that Far-Realm inhabitants want to destroy the multiverse rather than control it; I dont think the residents of the Far-Realm pay all that much attention to the rest of the Multiverse- for all WE know, the Far-Realm is the equivalent of a multiverse to them, fullfilling all their needs and more. When some poor sod wanders into the Far-Realm, or attracts the attention of one of its residents, the results are twisting; but I dont think inherently evil.

As Ive said before, I dont see the Far-Realm as inherently 'evil'- its BEYOND good or evil; though there is certainly something dark/sinister about the place.

Its been awhile since I read LoM in its entirety(something I think im going to do tonight, now that I think of it), but had thought the MFs required HUMAN brains, as opposed to humanOID brains, which clears up that that question instantly... to be honest, I would have made them human brain eatters only, soas to remove the reason for most humanoids to outright hate them; but hey, im not the writer

Just to be clear- just having a discussion here; I think sometimes I may come off abit disgruntled, but its just my style of writing

As I stated in my other post (Some Random Thoughts); I am going to pull out heavily any real involvement in this project- Im just not the kind of person to do this sort of work and I dont feel that I can stay impartial in the sense that I think is required to create a new gaming system

Might I just add: Personally, I think your post is a great addition Kal- it fills in most of the holes and gathers together the respective information quite well.

I personally just think something besides the Illithid should be responsible for the catalyst resulting in Ragnarok.

A planar anomomly (which im not entirely familiar with) could be the cause perhaps; or even just the natural cycle of things, The Twightlight as it were- it HAS been a long time afterall and stars have a limited lifespan (albeit, not as limited as ours, lol).

Or perhaps the barriers of the Planes of Positive and Negative Energy break at the seams, the mixing of the 2 causing drastic changes throughout the Great Wheel.... I dunno- brains not working too well at the moment; but Im sure you guys can figure out something better than blaming the Mind Flayers, especially if they arent the badasses described in LoM.

I just think it forces the exclusion of the Mind Flayer material gleamed from LoM regarding the future of said race- which I dont think is necessary if you simply exclude the Mind Flayers in this singular aspect; the implication being that, if their empire does eventually come to fruition, it is in an even more distant future (perhaps a time where many of the forces who COULD have stood against them are gone- imagine a planar mass extinction and the effect it might have on our version of the Great Wheel... and consider that Mind Flayers may very well be one of the few to survive, as long as their food source remained).

Basically, I think you can do better than that, to be quite honest.

The MFs killing the sun is just too bloody obvious- come on! Make up something frigging crazy and cool already! lol

Edit: Im a guy

... and then what? lol

Maybe Im getting ahead of myself here....

Kal has used the Illithid in a manner I wasnt entirely up with....

Perhaps you just offered the answer.

Was there much, if any, description regarding this "Calling to Ilsensine"? Details of what it WAS exactly (a ritual, an action, a spell, or just a buncha mind flayers waving their tentacles at the damn moon?), how it went down, what the exact details were of the results (ie, HOW did it send the demons back- just throw them back instantaneously, or with some unknown forces or..?).

Ok, heres where it gets alil tricky...

So lets say this calling occurs, the demons are repulsed, *something bad happens-hopefully more detail to come*, and life goes on...

Later, the return as a major power with plan to blot out the sun.... Now, lets be serious here... this is DnD.... They dont succeed- someone busts up in their deal, breaks their shit, kills their smart guys, WHATEVER... The Illithid are weakened, but still pretty smart and powerful (all things considered...).... Now, they have this plan to blot out the sun, but EVERY TIME they try it, some other son of a bitch comes along and mucks it up or trashes their shit.... Its gotta be frustrating....

Easy to imagine a few of the Illthid elite sitting around a couple juicy brains like hmmmm.... Lucky for them, they got these things that are REALLY good at thinking; theyre giant brains after all.... And one of these brains, gets a WHOPPER of an idea....

Fenris the Wolf is the answer.

The wait, gathering their forces and their power, scouring the depths of Agathion on Pandemoniun (it was THEM, infact, that opened the hole that ended said Plane; but few know this) for artifacts and powers that might aid their cause.

They learned the nature of the 'golden leash' and forged their own; using dwarven thralls to complete their labor.

Finally, oppurtunity shined on them.

When the beast slipped its chain and fled to the Material; they sought it out and called upon Ilsensine once again- this time to place the chain upon the creature's neck. The dark power accomplished its task, but was killed and consumed by the Wolf in the process. Still- the Illithids had their sun killer.

They took the idea of their God's death relatively well, all things considered- they had enough technological know-how that they believed themselves able to live on with ease.

Arrogance always was the Illithid's downfall- this time it would be no different.

Bending the Wolf to their will, they almost literally 'fed' it the suns themselves. Strangely enough this beast didnt seem to fight as much as one would expect- it was almost as if it knew what was coming next.

The God's sent their avatars to recapture Fenris; but to no avail. Something bordering panic began to spread- where was the Chaos Hound? And where was her father?! Loki having disappeared from Asgard only days prior.

As the suns began to fall, and the Primes fall into winter and chaos, the Illithid sought to conceal their newly found prize- no telling when a sun eatter would come to use again.

Fools that they truly are though (mere mortals), the brought Fenris to Pandemonium- unaware of her fathers presence in Winter's Hall; some say awaiting her arrival.

When the prize arrived, Loki appeared and the beast fought all the more vigorously; the resulting magic breaking Agathion wide open and releasing the Plane eatting horror the resulted in the forming of the Pandemonium we know today (see The Endless Sewers of Erebus post).

Both Loki and the wolf immediately traveled to Asgard; where the norse powers (including Baldur and Odin) were in commune. With no warning, the pair appeared- Fensir leaping out and striking Odin mortally; Loki leaping upon his old foe Baldur, crippling him with a magically enchanted spear of mistletoe- coated with a foul poison the Illithid had culled from Agathion, locked away for its virulence against the divine beings.

Freke and Gere, the old wolves of Odin, tried to stop the attack; but were simultaneously consumed in the maw of Fenris- feeding upon countless stars and the Illithid God had made her a terrifying creature; even amongst the Gods.

As Fensir began to consume Odin, Loki finished it- severing the magestic head of Baldur.

The Suns are gone, the moons whirling off into oblivion in response. Hati Hrodvitnisson and Skoll, offspring of Fensir, instead arrive on the Material Plane; as does their progenitor. Loki remains MIA.

With the death of Odin, the norse powers clash for power- his remains can be seen in the Astral; expelled by Fensir prior entering the Material.

The Primes, locked in dark, deepening winter as their planets die- the death of Baldur robs them of their beauty and spark; the mortal world dropping into a dull, ugly droll. Mortal life becomes suffering and terrible, everyone turning on each other. The wolf and his offspring travel the Prime, consuming entire worlds and their people.

On the Great Wheel, word of the event spreads like wildfire- the result being, as Kal said

The outsiders move in, not only to fell and protect their former deitys; but also to hunt down and destroy Fenris- before His eye should turn towards the Great Wheel in search of new prey. The only divine being still roaring with Power; Fenris seems unstoppable.

The crystal spheres shatter. Wild magic courses outward in a wave. Fensir is utterly destroyed- that or she simply disappeared from existence, as her presence seemed to vanish almost instantly.

...*see Changes to the Planes post, by Kal*

As for the Illithid, they suffer through Ragnarok just like the rest; albeit enjoying the lack of a sun on some level.

Even so, their empirical plans are wrecked... for now....

(In this way, I think Ragnarok is explained abit more fully indetail; as well as not trashing the 'Mind Flayer-Time Travel-Future Empire" deal from LoM)

Thoughts?

Im glad you liked it

As far as the time paradox thing ( know what you mean- schools a bitch and my brain feels like a its twitching), Id say either the unity of rings deal or that these are the mind flayers usually encountered- the ones that, at some point, came back to before the classic DnD present and did the Gith deal.

This is during their slow and eventual climb to becoming that world spanning empire that threatened the Blood War- which, in turn, would probably not be for quite some time in the future. In turn, THIS group of mind flayers will not make their fated trip into the future for quite some time..... whats very unclear is, how far down the line did this end? I mean, using unity of rings (what I think that means at least) havent the Mind Flayers basically just been leap frogging backwards for who-really-knows how long?

Like, lets consider Mind Flayer group A; their basic creation..... they do the whole hiding underground thing and return.... at some point in that timeline Mind Flayer group A goes into the past.....

They now become Mind Flayer Group B. Now, Mind Flayer Group B works its way along, creating and mucking up with the Gith, eventually reaching classic DnD present.

Now, Mind Flayer Group B does what I stated above with Fensir the Wolf. Ragnarok occurs and shit hits the fan. Millenium pass as technology increases and the Planes change. Now, lets say, JUST FOR SHITS AND GIGGLES, that 500,000 years pass..... Mind Flayer Group B has achieved the Empire and are in power, when something goes wrong and they must flee to the past (something that is probably long forgotten; but still ingrained in at LEAST one of the their most powerful elder brains from back when they were MFGroupA).

They now become Mind Flayer Group C.

Heres where it gets REALLY confusing.

Now, Mind Flayer Group C does the Gith thing once again (the origin of the Gith and MF conflict likely LONG forgotten; if the Gith still exist at that point, i really dont know anything about that).... Whatever the case, they want a group of slaves so they create the Gith again, not realizing what they would become..... By this line of thought, over those 500,00+ years, MUCH of the information has been lost about this era of MF history in the past (ie, the DnD classic era during which MF Group B lived).

Finally, as you can expect, Mind Flayer Group C... those poor bastards are back at the point where there are Suns and that pisses them off... They cant figure out how to do it.... and suddenly, one of the oldest elder brains gets this 'random' idea to use Fensir the Wolf....

You see what Im saying?

If alot of time passes between Ragnarok/UPS present and the Illithd Empire (ALOT of time; id say at least a few hundred thousand years)- then the Illithid will FORGET alot of the information... but their elder brains wont....

The Elder Brains wont have 100% memory though... They have minor bits of knowledge gleamed over time that MASSIVE span of time (we are talking like, a million years total here).... And when one suddenly comes up with this great idea to use Fensir the Wolf, the Illithid arent going to question where the Elder Brain got this idea- they will simply follow its plans..... Completely unaware that THIS ISNT THE FIRST TIME THIS HAS HAPPENED!

The real question comes to be, at what point did these humans create the mind flayers during all this? Were they created in the classic DnD present (see below on this issue) or were they created at some point FAR in the past, or FAR in the future; perhaps even BEYOND their Empire's fall- imagine humans creating a slave race, after all those millenium of fighting the Illithid as slaves.... only to find that they CREATED the Illithid to begin with! GAH! WHAT HAVE WE DONE! KILL THEM! CHASE THEM BELOW GROUND!.... And suddenly, they hate the Sun... it it all begins again...

It creates a very "Would I have broken the vase if you hadnt told me I was going to break it?" situation.

Basically, "If you hadnt made me a slave, would I in turn have not created you as my slave?"

Lol, feel like the damn architect from the 2nd Matrix movie.... crazyness.

I personally feel thats an interesting aspect that should never really be tampered with- the Illithid Empire should never actually come to fruition in a DnD game; its the end time, sometime FAR in the future that people from any typical (even UPS I feel) timeline should never really encounter (unless they somehow travel through time to the future, but even then they shouldnt stay there long).... though, a whole different system based during the Illithid Empire might just be a future project for me, now that Im thinking of it.... high tech, extremely dark, mind flayer overlords ruling in vast numbers over even greater numbers of thralls and slaves.

...To be quite honest, my knowledge of Spell-Jammer is limited at best; so Im not entirely clear on the time line that is associated with it: for example, im not clear if the UPS present would be long before or long after the Spell-Jammer era-basically, do the events of Spell-Jammer occur in the far distant past, the DnD present (prior to Ragnarok), or the far post-Ragnarok future?

That bit of history I made above would be considering that the Spell-Jammer world was coninciding with the other DnD timelines prior to Ragnarok- which Im guessing is the case, since you used the Illithid making use of Spell Jammers to remove the suns.

Interesting to consider watching a star die without dying yourself... would be like the ultimate fireworks display.

*shiver*

That would be considerably less fun to watch, lol.