The Grey Hags: Sources

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The Grey Hags: Sources

Author's Note: I'll write better versions of all this later. Right now, I'm just spewing it out as it comes to me. So please, pardon the crappy presentation of these ideas. Suggestions, criticism, praise, hate-fueled flames--anything and everything is appreciated.

---

Every word of this is true. Anyone who says differently is a damn liar.

There was a time when spell-chuckers didn't need to scream out gibberish while flailing and throwing bat shit to make magic. There was a time when magic was not merely magic, but the Art. There was a time when magic was real.

What happened? The Grey Hags, that's what.

The first of their number had a brain like a maze and spoke only in puzzles. She saw the ivory towers of Man that broke the sky and bridges that linked the stars--and her withered heart grew heavy with envy and greed.

And so she sat before her loom and weaved trick after trick, deceit after deceit--until the Truth was smothered beneath the webs of her lies. And so did her lie spread, like an infectious disease; and so did many come to believe its false truth.

'Magic,' she lied, 'Must be studied and understood. Mages shall speak in numbers and learn runes; they shall study tomes thick with dust to master the Art. Magic does not govern the Multiverse; the Multiverse governs magic.'

And so did she make a Maze out of magic, much like her mind; and so did the ivory towers crumble and the bridges fall. And now we all must study, study, study--for the Truth has been smothered, and even now begins to flicker and die.

But she was clever, oh yes--very clever. For the Maze of Magic had in it many trap-doors and secret passageways--passages she herself built for her sisters. And that is why the Grey Hags know the short-cuts--the trap-doors, the trick hallways, the illusionary walls--that gives them their vile edge. Because Magic is a Maze, and they are its Keepers.

---

In the beginning, Magic was real--and the Multiverse suffered.

Can you imagine it, berk? Do you want to? Anyone could cast magic. Any thought you had--any idea, any concept--and with enough will, it could become real.

The Multiverse was engulfed in the sheer mayhem of it all. New races would pop out of a mage's skull. Magical battles swallowed up entire planes. A single man could raise and burn a city.

At last, three brave sisters rose above the shrieking din of destruction and enchantment. Through sheer force of will and cleverness alone, they threw magic into a cage.

That's right. They Mazed Magic itself.

No longer could casters invoke destructive power with a mere thought. No more would cities fall before the might of a single man. Now, to reach the power of True Magic, you had to traverse a maze--one filled with words and equations, runes and math. To wield magic, you had to study--and study hard.

And what did they get for their troubles? For turning a churning sea of tumultuous violence into something sensible and sane? The Powers that Be cursed the sisters--and twisted their forms into hideous, puzzle-obsessed monsters. Forever more, they would traverse the maze of magic, learning its hidden traps and passageways, gathering together its secrets--always looking, consciously or otherwise, to undo the sin that had twisted their souls and withered their hearts.

And that's how the Grey Hags came to be.

---

Do you want to know the dark of it? The real dark of it?

All Grey Hags are the same person.

She was a witch--a spell-caster of unsurmountable power. Her cleverness knew no limits and her magic no bounds. But she was old, and dying--as all things beneath the Spire are want to do.

But she had a plan.

Her last act was to craft a spell so vile, so villainous, and so terrifying that it would forever more blanket the lower planes in perpetual night. She poured herself into it--every ounce of her corrupted, twisted, withered little soul--until she herself became nothing but a dried husk, sitting before a freshly scribed spell with the ink still drying.

When cast, the spell did nothing.

But when a mage memorized it--committing such an obviously mighty, unidentifiable spell to memory--it would take hold of them. Transform them. It would take hold of the portion of their mind where it lurked, whispering things to them--short-cuts. Tricks and traps to power. Ways to become more powerful.

In time, the spell-caster would become twisted and mishapen, taking the hag's form. And eventually, she would become one of the Grey Hags--a child of the First.

Often, powerful mages succumbed to the spell's might, seeking power and discovering buried texts speaking of it. Other hags would help--knowingly or unknowingly perpetuating the spell, rescribing it, spreading it, speaking of it in whispering tones to inspire others to believe it a great and terrible secret of the hags.

And when the time comes, the First will return and take hold of her children's twisted minds. And when that day comes, I'll be taking those vacation days I'm owed to go visit Mount Celestia.

---

Zeniel's picture
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Thats the kind of speculation that'd get a basher mazed!

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I love your vague suggestions, the culminated riddle, even if I am only imagining them. To maze magic one must be a master of magic, her mind like a maze. She scribed the spell to not die like those below the Spire, to rise above it, entrapped along with the sigil she scribed. I also love the inherent irony that these all three were written by one, though different.

Even if I am looking deeper than you intended (it's probably the leak from my gas stove finally affecting my head, despite the superintendent's reassurances that there is not one), I had a lot of fun with this short article. Don't change it too much. Eye-wink

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The first description is the one I'd be inclined to use. It seems the most evil and leaves the most options for making hags interesting and uniquely nasty. The third one is the next best, but all three are good.

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'Iavas' wrote:
Even if I am looking deeper than you intended (it's probably the leak from my gas stove finally affecting my head, despite the superintendent's reassurances that there is not one), I had a lot of fun with this short article. Don't change it too much. Eye-wink

Though rough drafts, all three were meant to invoke 'what-ifs' in a reader's mind; I was trying to consciously draw parallels between the Night Hags and the Lady of Pain, as well as imply that the Lady of Pain might in fact be a Night Hag herself (and Sigil the maze that magic--aka belief--has been trapped inside of). That's just one vague interpretation, though.

Anyway, I think that I'd like to see the Night Hags become something along the lines of the keepers of magic, the Art--possessing a fundamental understanding of the necessary ritual of sacrifice, as well as magical currency. Are there any other planars with something like this all ready going on?

Quote:
The first description is the one I'd be inclined to use. It seems the most evil and leaves the most options for making hags interesting and uniquely nasty. The third one is the next best, but all three are good.

The second one was thrown out there because I know there has to be a positive spin on the hags out there--someone out there has to be like 'Look, we NEED the hags!'.

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The second one was thrown out there because I know there has to be a positive spin on the hags out there--someone out there has to be like 'Look, we NEED the hags!'.

Ouch, sucks for the hack n' slash PCs. It's a great idea, but it takes away some of the evilness. That they've trapped magic and make use of the loopholes they created seems really cosmicly important and nasty.

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Ouch, sucks for the hack n' slash PCs. It's a great idea, but it takes away some of the evilness. That they've trapped magic and make use of the loopholes they created seems really cosmicly important and nasty.

I like the idea of magic being 'caged' or 'mazed', too. A mental maze that a magician must traverse to cast magic; spells are mapped out paths that have been tried and tested and found safe to use. It explains why magic is so funky (and gives an IC explanation for the OOC attempts to balance magic--magic was mazed so wizards can't be too powerful, but especially clever wizards find ways to use the loopholes to their own ends).

If I had to chose one, I'd pick the first one with elements of the second. This also opens up the way for Night Hags to be keepers of magical spells that when memorized, drive you insane (lead the mage to parts of the mental maze that contain traps?).

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Some nice lore of how (maybe) the night hags came about. Fantastical yet plausible sounding; ambiguous and painted in broad strokes, which is how I like my creation myths.

'The Great Hippo' wrote:
Every word of this is true. Anyone who says differently is a damn liar.

By the way, since part of joyblood's remit is many different and conflicting truths, can I suggest that i might be nice thematically if we preface all our 'explanations' with some variation on the sentance above - or at least the first part of it?

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Go with the first section - the second section is running a touch close to the Grandma Rule as implemented on Planewalker and shouldn't become a regular occurance.

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If I may--what is the 'Grandma Rule'?

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Since you asked and it is a worthwhile thing to know...

[url]/forum]

I'm horrifically not draconian about it - mostly because everyone currently on the forums are really nice sane folks so the need to come down on anyone hasn't occurred much.

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Since you asked and it is a worthwhile thing to know...

Oh, yes--I saw that earlier (I went through all my stuff and took out the casual cursing, even! Sorry about that--force of habit). I'm not out to sound contradictory--I just want to understand. What about the second section is on the borderline of breaching the Grandmother rule? Just so I know not to approach it later.

Also:

Mr. Gray

Gray, Gray, go away
Come back another day

Deep in the depths of the Glooms, a man composed of pure banality walks.

He has no name--children have taken to calling him 'Mr. Gray' on account of his apparently gray-skinned appearance. He has no face--only a smooth plate of indistinguishable skin. No one ever remembers any of the clothes he wears, or if he was tall, or short, or had pointy ears, or had hair.

He's just too boring to remember.

According to a legend (most of which are far too boring to relate), he is the avatar of those soldiers who have fallen to despair and ennui in the Gray Wastes, and--instead of becoming Larvae--became one with banality, losing their identity in the process.

No one knows what he wants, or what he's doing. But he ceaselessly patrols the Glooms, searching for the freshly-dead or soon-to-be corrupted mortals, all of whom disappear shortly after meeting him. Anyone who has prolonged contact with him inevitable falls into a coma from which they never awaken. Merely standing in his presence seems to be enough to strip the vitality and creative energy from anyone.

Note: This is supposed to be something like the Unknown Soldier. I imagine him patroling the fields of Oinos for mortal soldiers lost in the Blood War and taking them under his wing, to become one with him. Or something. I don't know; this idea's mostly poorly formed in my mind so far, except it goes something like 'man who is so boring no one can remember him, can extend his boringness to other objects, making adventurers forget they even have swords; in addition, offers soldiers chance to forget the pain of battle and even make everyone else forget they ever existed, protecting them from something or other through pure anonymity'.

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'The Great Hippo' wrote:
Oh, yes--I saw that earlier (I went through all my stuff and took out the casual cursing, even! Sorry about that--force of habit). I'm not out to sound contradictory--I just want to understand. What about the second section is on the borderline of breaching the Grandmother rule? Just so I know not to approach it later.

Just the cussing. Eye-wink It's cussing but is also part of a fairly often used idiomatic phrase - so it's in that gray spot - where it probably shouldn't be sprinkled in front of every entry but alone certainly doesn't warrent much more than a 'dude - kids around' reminder. Hence the first part "Every word of this is true." is a great idea, but the second part of the line not too hot. (And you're not the only one who refrains speech online. Eye-wink I get rather blue at times m'self - if not downright crude.)

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Ok - Mr. Grey is a *great* idea! I think I may inflict that upon my players sometime...

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Oh, I thought you were talking about the second story section--the story about Grey Hags having once been a band of sisters trying to limit magic to protect the Multiverse. I was searching the story again and again, trying to figure out what was in there that was inappropriate!

The base idea for Mr. Gray is just someone who is so boring you cannot even remember him; he can extend this obfuscation to other people and objects (my favorite of which is making you fail to see the wall you're charging right towards, because he just makes it so damn boring). The faceless thing is optional, as is everything else--I can't just think of a good way to link him too tightly to the Gray Wastes (despite him being pretty in-theme, I think) beyond saying he's the avatar of forgotten soldiers or something.

I'll think of something more definite later, I just wanted to get the idea out somewhere before it fled my mind.

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Well, the one thing I immediately thought of at the 'grey skinned faceless man' was an ultroloth. Might be a debased one or a hag's attempt to make one from scratch. . .

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Well, the one thing I immediately thought of at the 'grey skinned faceless man' was an ultroloth. Might be a debased one or a hag's attempt to make one from scratch. . .

I didn't even see that connection; although, initially, my first idea was that he was very human in appearance, but any apparent face was merely absent (and I saw him always wearing an anonymous-looking suit for some reason).

To be honest, it might be best to keep him incredibly vague. Not much is known about him--not much can be known, because he's so abominably boring that even other Powers forget he exists. Infact, to keep him in-line with the Grey Sisters, he might be the ultimate Secret-Keeper--the entity who determines what secrets should not, cannot be known by the Multiverse, and dragging them into the Gray Wastes where they become saturated with ennui and apathy until they are forever forgotten.

I really like that idea, because it implies there's entire pantheons--entire histories--that Mr. Grey has calmly dragged down into the forgetful muck of the Gray Wastes, because there are some things that simply should never be known. And perhaps the gray sisters gain many of their secrets from their ability to pick through that muck (maybe along the River Styx--mudlarks? D:) and find the secrets before they wither to dust, much to Mr. Gray's perpetual chagrin.

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Infact--and I might be getting ahead of myself, who knows--there might be a whole potential treasure trove of mythology to be unlocked by viewing the Night Hags as mudlarks (the name given to the dirty poor who dug along the rivers of England and France during the second Industrial Revolution, searching for things to sell). The idea that the Gray Wastes is the sewage of the Multiverse, where all ideas, beliefs, and thoughts that have been used up and spent eventually end up--and the Gray Sisters are the mudlarks, combing the forgetful muck of the River Styx and the surrounding battlefields, hunting down morsels and baubles of secrets-still-alive--it's very appealing to me.

Mr. Gray, then, might be one of the (multiple?) guardians of these secrets--the agents charged with the process of dragging things not meant to be known deep into the mire of forgetfulness and apathy.

Basically, the Gray Wastes would be the toilet of the Multiverse--where all the flushed flotsam eventually ends up. And the Gray Hags are the bag-ladies who comb the junkyard for anything useful.

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Hiya!

As for the Night Hag stories, I like #1 the best, and I think it'd be great as one of the flavour texts to introduce Night Hags in our first PDF (see "Project 1"-thread). And as for the other two variations... we could include them in future PDFs, always giving the same source, so we build some kind of "dark secret mythology" over the course of a couple of PDFs... what do you think?

In any case, I think we shouldn't include the "good" Night Hags idea yet - that's just not the flavour and theme that's meant to come out for the first book. This one's going to be purely evil.. Smiling

As for Mr. Gray - I love him. I'll think about what else can be done with him, I'm sure he's got the potential to become a major re-appearing theme in our project! I'm not sure where to put him in the first book, though - any ideas? Maybe as an adventure outline? Or maybe we keep him for the second project?

Finally, as for the "All of this is true"-sentence thingy... I'm not a friend of repeating things too often. I like the idea of putting this in one or two texts, but I think if we include it everywhere, people will just get annoyed by it.

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Is the project covering Altraloths(sp?)? If so I suppose mr gray (lack of capitals deliberate) could be one although having him as an embodied concept works better.

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The project can cover anything we want, though there should always be a strong tie to our two featured races.

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I'll think of something. It could be an adventure, or a short story blurb (is there any room in the book for just a flavor blurb concerning gray hags?). Possibly a story that continues in short segments throughout the book itself (similar to WoD books--I'm actually pretty good with those), but I'm assuming that wouldn't damage the book's consistency, would it?

As for a 'loth--because I'm a mythical-kind-of-guy, I'd like to keep him away from most of the standard fiend templates. It strikes me as a lot more compelling if no one has any clue of what he is, and he seems to be more an avatar of the Gray Waste's anonymity, apathy, and sheer crippling banality.

Of course, if there's a really compelling and awesome angle to be had from making him a 'loth, count me in.

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I would think in this case the more interesting angle is that *others* think he may be a loth - not that he is himself. That no one else *quite* knows how to handle him because they aren't trying to handle him the right way.

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Actually, considering the topic of our project - Night Hags and Hordlings - I'd prefer NOT making him a 'loth myself. Talking about this, while I love Mr. Gray, we also need a connection to one of our two featured races here.

Somehow I feel, though, it wouldn't be a good idea to just say "he's a super-hordling" or something. I'm thinking more in the lines of an opponent of Hordlings and/or Hags - possibly the one dark secret that the Hags couldn't solve up to now...

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Quote:
Somehow I feel, though, it wouldn't be a good idea to just say "he's a super-hordling" or something. I'm thinking more in the lines of an opponent of Hordlings and/or Hags - possibly the one dark secret that the Hags couldn't solve up to now...

I was thinking something along the same lines; more specifically, the masculine counterpart of the gray sisters. The one secret they could never quite grasp.

One of his weirder powers might be the ability to know any secret that no one else knows--in other words, any secret that you keep completely to yourself, he can know. Either that, or any secret that has forever been forgotten (or possibly both). Or maybe he just knows the secrets he's helped make disappear (knowledge is more powerful when less people have it).

Anyway, I imagine the gray sisters trying to discover what he is and remove him from the planes, since he's in the business of guarding and destroying secrets. They may have dealings with him on occasion (trading secrets), but they'd probably rather not do this because he makes their secrets disappear.

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Kinda reminds me of Dune... Smiling

I'd vote for him knowing secrets that everyone else has forgotten - i.e. that noone but him knows. This would give him a strong interest in killing Night Hags, especially those who found out new secrets....

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'The Great Hippo' wrote:
Quote:
Somehow I feel, though, it wouldn't be a good idea to just say "he's a super-hordling" or something. I'm thinking more in the lines of an opponent of Hordlings and/or Hags - possibly the one dark secret that the Hags couldn't solve up to now...

I was thinking something along the same lines; more specifically, the masculine counterpart of the gray sisters. The one secret they could never quite grasp.

Ravel and The Nameless One, totally! Smiling

Also I'd say don't make him too powerful. Knowing so much as he does makes one incredible powerful, so we should better impose some restrictions on him. And his mind. The consciousness of a normal being would a) make use of the power given by this ability and b) wouldn't be able to bear the power given by this ability.

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Every good old fashioned evil witch coven needs a goat to worship too... Eye-wink I like having him as the male counterpart. Possibly he is the male incarnation of the older magical forms that the hags represent? Their duality figure. As a single entity of such power he holds stupendous power but enough to not be able to focus on individual projects (possibly the hags made him forget himself?). So he becomes as much a revered worshiped 'husband' to the hags, a god and source of power... at the same time a favored pet and slave.

I could see a rogue coven wanting to free him from this, and unleash his power on the Waste.

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I think there's a quite big restriction on Mr. Gray: Apathy.

He might have access to ultimate power through his secret knowledge, but he's too apathetic to use it.

The Hags always fear that one day, he might, though. They're torn apart between ripping secrets out of him, being afraid of becoming secret-food for him, and having nightmares about what might happen if he actively used all his knowledge.

The way I understood Mr. Gray, he's a knowledge predator; he consumes, but he doesn't really care what he consumes, as long as it feeds him...

To him, Hags are prey (as he feeds on their secrets) and predator (as they trick secrets from him) at the same time.

It's like the ultimate twisted love/hate union.

I love it Smiling

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All fantastic stuff.

There's a tremendously powerful and delicious mythology to be gleaned from the idea that he's someone who the Hags made forget himself, and thus hungers for knowledge--consuming it and destroying it in the process, seeking to fill the void that they left in him. And the underlying idea being that if he ever finds the secret that they stole from him--the knowledge of who he was--if he ever finds himself again--then HEADS WILL FRIGGING ROLL.

Needless to say, the hags DO NOT WANT HIM TO FIND THIS KNOWLEDGE OUT (the idea that there's a rogue coven that does is cool, too).

The restriction of apathy is a great one, too. I was thinking his powers are pretty mythical and not at all well described; he's constantly under the effect of Gloomweed Poultice (Wisdom save, DC: 15, just to be able to recognize that he's present--if you succeed, you can notice him for 24 hours before you have to make the save again?), he apparently knows every unknown shortcut in the book, and he can extend his gloomweed poultice power to any object he touches (or possibly even any object he sees).

Anything else is up to the DM and on an as-need basis, I'd think.

Edit: Oh, and also--any and all divination spells (including Legend Lore) cast on him fail. Any divination spell that would supply information about him indirectly has the part that would include him 'cut out', like there was a big chunk missing.

He never shows up on anyone's divination radar. Unless you're really, really powerful, or something. I guess. I dunno. D:

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He might know the secret of escaping any divination, even that of the powers themselves... Smiling

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I think I remember there being a Night Hag detailed over on Mimir.net who acted as a fortune teller in the cage. She charged very little and her predictions were very accurate, well, kind of. She always puts the most negative spin on her predictions and gives the customer just enough information to help them make the wrong decisions.

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