The dominant species

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Nemui's picture
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The dominant species

Are there dwarfs, elves, gnomes, and other prime races in the Urban Planescape? Or are there only humans and outsiders spawned by human belief? I assume we're not restricted to humans.

If the "demi-human" primes exist, where do they live? Not on Earth, obviously. So, other Prime worlds? Are they human-dominated too? If so, how did this happen, and why doesn't Earth know of these worlds? I assume there are dwarf worlds, elf worlds, etc., just as Earth is a human world.

If that is so, how does Urban Planescape justify the dominance of humans and human belief on the planes? In "rural Planescape" there were multiple Prime Material Planes/crystal spheres, all dominated by humans. In Urban, there is Earth... and then there are all these non-humans on their prime worlds, all channeling their belief into the planes. So, are celestials more dwarvish in UPS? More orcish? Yuan-tiish? Abolethish?

Do the outsiders need to be redefined to more closely resemble the non-humans, and to what extent?

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The dominant species

They're probably wherever they went when humans last had magic and dwarves and elves; mayhap there's a set of demihuman primes, which were also Gith invasion targets, for example. Whether or not they'd have parallel technological advancement (though in specialised fields) is another area to consider.

I think the three questions here are:
- Do we want or need demihumans?
- How would they get there?
- Would they have their own special techy stuff?
( unless I've missed the point entirely Smiling )

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The dominant species

"Persephone Imytholin" wrote:
They're probably wherever they went when humans last had magic and dwarves and elves; mayhap there's a set of demihuman primes,

I think the three questions here are:
- Do we want or need demihumans?
- How would they get there?
- Would they have their own special techy stuff?

( unless I've missed the point entirely Smiling )

You haven't, I was just extrapolating a bit further. I assumed the answers to the first questions were "yes" and "magic", respectively, but that raised another question - if there are alien (not only demihuman) primes, why are the Outer Planes so high on human belief, culture, architecture...

What I ended up with was this:

- Each relevant PMP/system/world/whathaveyou is more or less dominated by a single sentient race. Earth is for humans, some other place is for elves, another for dwarves, and so on. There were interractions and transitions between these "planes" in the past, hence the popular myths, but this was a while ago, when Earth was still magic-rich. Elves and dragons no longer visit us from Faerie, and the illithid rarely bother to drop by to pick up thralls.
This principle is not exclusive, of course. There may be PMPs/worlds with many native sentient races, but they are few and far between - and probably high on magic. In fact, odds are that high-magic PMPs still interract significantly, although I don't think many of them would be human dominated.

- Now, if the Prime Material "Universe" isn't as human-dominated as the typical D&D settings were, some changes must be made to the races of the outer planes - they are shaped by belief, and not many yuan-ti abominations would imagine the personification of goodness as a radiant golden-haired humanoid.

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The dominant species

Ah, but then we can comfortably assume that, if cross-culturalisation has occured in the past, then a reasonable number of demihumans already share some 'human' beliefs.

Or that shorter-lived humans somehow count for more on the belief scale.

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The dominant species

Shorter lifespan - faster population generation - faster petitioner generation - and we all know humanity's special power is "reproduce like cockroaches".

On the *other* hand - here's another idea for you. Looking back in RL history - there are certain 'archetypes' of dieties that exist. The thunder wielder: Jupiter/Zeus, Thor, ThunderBird, Set, Apocatequil, Taranis, Lei-Gong, Yaluk, Mamaragan... ok - let's just say there's a LOT of them according to: www.godchecker.com.

Suffice to say there are certain things that seem to be *common* in experience. It's quite possible to have dieties develop along simular lines. So why not have the same diety (in certain cases) develop? Perhaps when speaking to one worshiper the god adjusts his form to match expectations as opposed to speaking to another - it would make sense and resolve the trouble right?

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There's certainly no reason why they couldn't, and the average deity would have every reason to. Ignoring the duplication that exists between D&D deities (or using it to greater advantage), it's a smooth and friendly solution, and may result in different sets of petitioners depending on which followers they're dealing with.

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"Clueless" wrote:
On the *other* hand - here's another idea for you. Looking back in RL history - there are certain 'archetypes' of dieties that exist. The thunder wielder: Jupiter/Zeus, Thor, ThunderBird, Set, Apocatequil, Taranis, Lei-Gong, Yaluk, Mamaragan...

Suffice to say there are certain things that seem to be *common* in experience. It's quite possible to have dieties develop along simular lines. So why not have the same diety (in certain cases) develop?

Sure, but you're talking human(oid) deities. I doubt that utterly alien creatures such as kaorti, ethergaunts, or illithid would share similar concepts.

But as far as dwarves, elves, and the like are concerned, you're right, overlaps occur.

Which reminds me: in Dragonstar there was a general, bare-bones pantheon which was supposed to represent all belief systems out there. The polytheistic part had gods like Father, Mother, Warrior, Creator, Crone, etc. (or am I thinking G.R.R.Martin here?), while the monotheistic religions were represented by a yin-yang, black-white, dark side-light side dualism. The premise was that all religions could be deconstructed into these basic archetypes... though I don't know how you can fit Ilsensine in there. Maybe something similar could be done for Planescape?

I'll see if I can dig up that Dragonstar pdf somewhere.

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The special racial deities like Ilsensine would probably still exist merrily all on their own; the planes are, after all, infinite.

I think these 'special' deities are what Clueless had in mind with (in certain cases).

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The dominant species

Jungian archetypes and all - yes.

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The dominant species

I really think that simplifying the vast wealth of human religion and mythology to Jungian archetypes fits the Planescape ideas of infinity poorly. It works well in Dragonstar because much of Dragonstar revolves around explaining how the same species and languages and cultures are found on planets light-years seperated from each other.

Planescape doesn't really have this issue, and since Planescape focuses on belief, I think it's better if the vast multitude of deities is maintained, redundancies, inconsistencies, and all.

This is another one of those issues where, if it's a problem in Urban Planescape, it would also be a problem in regular Planescape. Standard Planescape more or less ignores the issue.

If it concerns you too much, you could convert the various Outsiders into templates, and then apply them to the creature in question to form their concept of the Outsiders, and mix them up-- say, occasionally running into a lizardfolk celestial or a dwarven fiend, and when you're dealing with the servitors of a specific deity, use the appropriately modified Outsider.

Or you could leave the human-dominance of the Planes a mystery, and have non-humans occasionally bitch about how all of the angels look like humans.

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The dominant species

"Korimyr the Rat" wrote:
This is another one of those issues where, if it's a problem in Urban Planescape, it would also be a problem in regular Planescape. Standard Planescape more or less ignores the issue.

That's very true, and it definitely isn't broken there.

Quote:
If it concerns you too much, you could convert the various Outsiders into templates, and then apply them to the creature in question to form their concept of the Outsiders, and mix them up-- say, occasionally running into a lizardfolk celestial or a dwarven fiend, and when you're dealing with the servitors of a specific deity, use the appropriately modified Outsider.

That'd work out pretty nicely, too. For that matter, it'd probably work just to change how the special outsiders look, and leave everything else the same.

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The dominant species

One crackpot theory I have:
What if the beliefs of earth created the planes? That would explain how things started, but when earth started to "move on" culturaly an idealisticaly, the forced that controlled the planes used the gith to hide earth behind the buffer, so it's infuence, now scene as disruptive, would be weakened. Hence the rapid change in the planes once shadow primes broke into it.

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Except that protecting the planes doesn't seem like a githyanki kind of job to me - which would mean it was really someone like the Rilmani who'd have sealed Earth off from the planes in the first place.

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If it were true the Rilmani would be earth's gretest (and least known) enemy. I'm also pretty sure that due to their love of balance, they don't like these changes... of course I still am not quite sure how to fit the fact it was the githyanki that sealed earth into the picture.

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The dominant species

Here's another approach. I ran a historical campaign set around 1200AD that was sealed from planar travel (just to keep the players on Earth fighting Gengis Khan and in the Crusades).

The way we handled it at the time was that the Astral was sealed in a bubble around Earth because of a *plethera* of god corpses. After all, in the 1200's monotheistic religions had rather taken over things in a large segment of the world. It was literally the sheer number of god bodies left over in the area after the monotheistic religions had killed out/coverted their followers that had sealed the place in a bubble.

This may not work for the major pantheons (Greek/Roman, Egyptian, etc) but there are *thousands* of minor spirits, household gods, and other diefic beings that could do a simular effect...

Persephone Imytholin's picture
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That makes for interesting implications, with Earth's new flood of polytheists.

Loki De Carabas's picture
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The dominant species

Back to the original topic: Demihumans.

I wuld actually take a page from Shadowrun and say that the demihumans reappear with the magic. Thse parts of DNA we have not figured out yet are actually activated by magic producing trolls, elves, orcs, dwarves, etc from baseline human stock. Ths could also continue with the animals producing magical beasts if wanted.

Myself I would be VERY careful with this appraoch. It is a good one, but the domino effect of escalating changes could well wreak havoc on Earth....

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"Loki De Carabas" wrote:
Myself I would be VERY careful with this appraoch. It is a good one, but the domino effect of escalating changes could well wreak havoc on Earth....

What's wrong with wreaking havoc on Earth? Why should the Planars have all the fun?

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Pardon my imprecision, I was extremely tired when I wrote that.

What I meant to say was that the natural result of taking that appraoch would leave you with Earth greatly resembling Shadowrun without the cybertech. The feel I got from reading the original threads of this project was that it was more like Buffy the vampire slayer- the Shadowkind are there, but not overtly. Taking the Shadowrun style approach you end up with Orcs taking your order at McDonalds.....

It is not a wrong appraoch, but either way you should map out the ramifications before starting to run the game.

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The dominant species

imagine an illithid with a halo

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The dominant species

Here I don't really like the idea of a truely human centric or prime centric campaign or at least one that is really so. I do like the idea that humans are simply out populating all the other petitioners on the planes.

I suppose in the end it boils down to a population shift on the outer planes. Humans, orcs, goblins, and kobalds would be on the rise with high population/short life spans. While the races like elves, dwarfs, gnomes and halflings would be falling slowly.

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