Tests of the gods

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Palomides's picture
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factotums
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Tests of the gods

Since exchanges seem to be dying down, I’ll bring up a tangent from a different thread of mine:

What are some tests that people could go through while proving their spiritual worth (e.g. when climbing Mt. Celestia? Proving their worthiness to a god -or it’s angelic agent- from whom they must ask a favor, etc.)

Personally, I prefer, non-obvious tests that misdirect. For example, the PC is sent on some task by an angel or god. Along the way, he encounters a knight who is in trouble of losing against a monster. The PCs helps out (and in turn, the knight might help the PC on his quest) but later on when both report back to the angel or god, the knight makes no reference to the PC helping him.
In this case, the test wasn’t whether the PC would help the knight (as that was obvious) but it is really a test of:
-Humility (in the hopes that the PC lets the knight have the glory)
-Devotion to the truth (setting the record straight even if it hurts the knight)
OR
-Self-reliance (even though the knight “owes” the PC, the PC should try to perform his task of peity on his own)
Whatever the real test is, subtle clues should be available to give some guidance to an observant PC as to what is desired.

I also have always liked the test I saw in a Planescape cartoon where a paladin is told that he is "too heavy" to pass to the next layer of Mt. Celestia. The paladin eventually realizes that he should divest himself of the armor and trapping upon which he relies so much.

Here are a few of sins or failings that one is supposed to overcome to attain spiritual enlightenment:
--Extravagence/Attachment to material things
--Debauchery
--Lust – tough to test just through verbal descriptions
--Gluttony - ditto
--Greed
--Sloth/Laziness
--Despair/Self Doubt
--Wrath/Anger
--Envy
--Pride/Hubris
--Vainglory/Boasting
--Cruelty
--Dishonesty
--Fear/Superstition
--Indifference to Suffering
--Impatience

Do any of these suggest a good test or adventure? I know that the gods could always send the PCs out to retrieve the MacGuffin or to slay the BBEM (and I think that would be fine for the ruse) but I'd like to hear some ideas for situations that test a player's moral choices, either obviously or subtly.

Hyena of Ice's picture
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factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Tests of the gods

It should be mentioned that the sin of Wrath, though pertaining primarily to anger, did not refer solely to it, as its opposite number was temperance. Thus, wrath also covers other emotions, and is the sin of allowing oneself to be controlled by/in bondage to one's emotions/passions.
A similar virtue extolled in the Bible to temperance is sobriety and vigilance (the two are often linked together), and drunkeness is likewise listed as a sin in the New Testament.
You also should have mentioned hatred, which is usually listed as separate from wrath.
Another sin is malice/ill will-- the desire to see other people suffer, and possibly deriving satisfaction from it. This is specifically listed as a "sin" in Buddhist sutras.
Provocation is a sin as well, though you have to compare Bible translations to glean that (and there are, in fact, a LOT of verses which talk about provocation.)
Hypocrisy is a big one in most organized religions.
Another is exploitation. Granted, this is one of those things that, in the D&D world, you generally can't do if you want to keep your good alignment.
The Bible singles out more than just lust and "fornication" (more or less the same thing) as sins. It specifically lists lewdness (and profanity) several times as sinful behavior.
The Quran specifically mentions gambling as haraam (sinful/forbidden), and most Christians (and Buddhists) tend to agree that gambling is not Christ-like/Buddha-like behavior.

""Do any of these suggest a good test or adventure? I know that the gods could always send the PCs out to retrieve the MacGuffin or to slay the BBEM (and I think that would be fine for the ruse) but I'd like to hear some ideas for situations that test a player's moral choices, either obviously or subtly.""

It is just as important for the player to learn virtues. In most religions, these include:

--Charity/Generosity
--Faith/Trust/Hope
--Gratefulness
--Honesty
--Humility
--Kindness/Love
--Longsuffering/Endurance (basically enduring crap without ever complaining)
--Mercy
--Patience
--Piety, respect towards superiors, etc.
--Selflessness/Self Sacrifice
--Standing up for one's convictions, even under the threat of death
--Temperance/Self control/self-discipline/sobriety
--Vigilance
--Zeal

Palomides's picture
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factotums
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Re: Tests of the gods

By avoiding "sin", I had implied embracing virtue (which I left out since my entry was getting long as it was)

But this still begs the question: What are some good adventures/tests that I could give to my PCs?

Surreal Personae's picture
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Re: Tests of the gods

If you're going for subtlety, one thing I think would be interesting would be to test to see if the virtues are learned in the right context, as part of embracing and promoting goodness. In other words, there could be several tests to weed out "twisted" or misapplied versions of the virtues (rather than simply testing the obvious sins). Many of the virtues can be turned on their heads and become even worse than the sins would be alone.

For example, long-suffering/endurance can become passivity, not letting others know you are suffering until you break down or relationships wither away. Self-sacrifice can become needless fatalism or martyrdom. Charity can become giving so much you have nothing left for yourself. Zeal can become fanaticism or intolerance. Basically, the test might go by the idea that each value embraced by a virtue should be tempered and moderated by the others (i.e., mercy tempering justice and vice versa) and of course applied with wisdom.

Another thing to test for his motivation. In the example posted about helping the knight, the applicant to a higher level of Celestia could have done a number of things that seem all to be pretty valid. But the values displayed are all virtues, in this case. So the important thing was not just the action, but also why it was committed.

Hyena of Ice's picture
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Re: Tests of the gods

""Zeal can become fanaticism or intolerance.""
It can also become wrath. Quite easily so. (I'm using the definition of the opposite number of temperance-- allowing one's emotions to control them)

Though not listed as a virtue in the Bible, wisdom (by a certain definition) would also be a virtue. The type of wisdom we're talking about is not book smarts or cunning, but rather, insight and clear judgement. Zeal must be tempered with both temperance and this type of wisdom.

You mentioned perverted virtues, which I can point to the following:

--Faith/trust/hope- badly misplaced trust
--Longsuffering- apathy, esp. towards circumstances that may lead to the suffering of others (e.g. not reporting a mugging)
--Temperance- suppression of emotions, apathy (temperance is a combination of self-control and sobriety. Attempting to eliminate the emotions and drives defeats the entire purpose of the virtue.) It could also be perverted (though not likely by PCs) to refusal to get a psychiatric illness treated with medication or mind-affecting spells. Temperance-enthusiasts (IRL) who oppose psychotropic drugs don't realize that temperance is a luxury of the sane.
I mentioned mind-affecting spells. This would be an extreme route that PCs probably wouldn't take, but theoretically it would be possible that a paladin refuses such aid. Obviously there are a few spells that WOULD make sense for a temperance-enthusiastic paladin to be opposed to using, such as Rage.

Perversion of honesty would be having "a big mouth" and saying things that need not be said, such as voicing one's opinion that someone is ugly.

Vigilance, of course, can be perverted to become paranoia.

Standing up for one's convictions COULD be perverted into provocation and hope for martyrdom. This would be very difficult to test, however. An IRL example would be some of the far-left and anarchist antiwar protesters who try to provoke the police into using brutality against them, and view getting arrested or brutalized by cops as a badge of honor. A good example is Cindy Sheehan, when she was arrested for refusing to leave the Whitehouse sidewalk. Pictures of her being carried away clearly show her grinning proudly from ear to ear.

If you want to look up info on verses in the Bible of provocation BTW, try using the Blue Letter Bible online program. In the KJV, many of the references were translated to "debate". Some of these verses however sound somewhat like they're referring to partisanship/factionalization/cronyism (particularly within the church)

That reminds me, another sin according to the Bible is gossip (in KJV I believe it was translated as "whisperers")

Palomides's picture
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Re: Tests of the gods

Again, I'm not as interested in WHAT attributes to test so much as HOW do I test them?

Munin's picture
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Re: Tests of the gods

I would have something other than an Angel send them on a quest, any quest will do, as long as its not obviously a test of moral attributes, and then sprinkle the story with moral dilemmas, allowing clever players to figure out, that something or someone is testing them.

Basically I'm saying, run a "normal" adventure, but play up the moral choices.
When the characters defeat the orc raiders, have the some orcs survive... do they characters take them prisoner or do they kill them? What happens when they discover that one of the orcs was a mother and the infant offspring is lying in the bushed, a few yards from the battleground?

What if the "marauding" Ogres in the hills, are actually trying to scare off the evil landgrabbing humans who have built a village on the ogre's sacred burial ground?

The characters meet a very hungry man with a cursed hat (or something). The hat makes the man immortal, under 2 conditions, he cant eat/consume anything and he cant remove the hat. The man has lived for thousands of years, so if he breaks the rules, he will die instantly... but all the poor soul wants, is an apple (maybe a bushel of apples?).

Surreal Personae's picture
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Re: Tests of the gods

Palomides wrote:
Again, I'm not as interested in WHAT attributes to test so much as HOW do I test them?

Well, for example, a test to differentiate needful self sacrifice from a martyrdom, have a situation where one of the choices to solving the problem is for the character is to make some great (but seemingly honorable) sacrifice to proceed. Then put in some alternatives that require some forethought and wisdom besides just charging in and getting killed (figuratively or literally) needlessly. That is, using wisdom (along with other virtues) to find a Third Option when presented with false dichotomies.

Another one could be a test of mercy vs. justice. For example, how do you treat a (allegedly) repentant villain? Maybe you could have a test where the majority of the evidence suggests that the bad guy won't reform. Just letting him go might turn mercy into negligence (he strikes again and hurts more people). So the hero needs the mindfulness to consider the possible ramifications of letting a villain go and do her best to make sure the cad is rendered harmless, at least.

Another test of mercy might be to do something harsh but is ultimately necessary for somebody to become better people. For example, reporting a friend with an addiction to his loved ones so that an intervention may be made. The idea here is that while it can cause pain in the here and now,, it would hopefully give the addict a chance to ease his pain in the long-term. Basically, the merciful thing in the long run is not always the most immediately "nice" thing to do.

Conversely, it may be tempting to shove one's opinions on others for their own benefit. Despite (somewhat) altruistic motives, the ends do not justify the means. Present a few tests of "would you do this to get this done" sort of situations might work. Wisdom and temperance, humility, patience, among other values and virtues could be tested in this way.

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