There are at least a couple places in Sigil where groups of people can collectively bathe and/or swim: One is the pools at the Great Gymnasium, and the other is at the Ditch on those rare occasions when the Dabus let fresh water in from Oceanus (normally it's too foul to swim in). Would I be correct in assuming that the bathers would be... um, NAKED? Do Sigil residents have no modesty, or has some enterprising cutter invented swimsuits? Since Planescape is a D&D Campaign setting, and classic D&D is more or less based on a psuedo-medieval society, I'd assume they'd swim nude, but I wonder if men and women are segregated at the Great Gymnasium (i.e. do they use the pools in turns, or do they just kick out anyone who stares too much? Or maybe they don't give a Cranium rat who looks...)?
Taking a dip at the Great Gymnasium... naked?
Well, since the term Gymnasium is derived from "Gymnos", i.e. the greek word for "naked"...
Yes, I assume that they would bathe naked. Also, as soon as you try to separate people by sex, you'd have the problem of sexing outsiders, elementals, fey, giants and so on.
If Metamorphosis weren't striving to be mostly PG-13, I think Drake would probably wander around naked a lot due to his inherent laziness and Sigil's general lack of prohibition against it. I generally agree with Rip that Sigil's nudity taboos are lessened or nonexistent because of the sheer number of things that come through.
"Sod all, Drake, where are your pants?"
"Eh."
Center of All, I believe that the book "In the Cage" specified that the Harmonium passed law(s) prohibiting public nudity, at least when you're not on private property like the Great Gymnasium and the like. It was mentioned in the section about the Market Ward, I think. In other words, you can't just walk around naked wherever you want. Of course, post-Faction War this restriction may have been lifted, and it's doubtful that the Sons of Mercy would make enforcing it a high priority, anyway. (I'll write back with the page number for the Harmonium law.)
""Yes, I assume that they would bathe naked. Also, as soon as you try to separate people by sex, you'd have the problem of sexing outsiders, elementals, fey, giants and so on.""
Elementals and giants have genders, though (though I don't know how sex would work between two elementals or an elemental and some other creature since they lack genitalia. Maybe they 'grow' them at will when the need arises or something. The various official materials are pretty clear that elementals are capable of sexual reproduction both within their own species and with mortals.)
The vast majority of fey have genders as well. Aberrations on the other hand... I admit I don't know much about their biology, but I'm going to guess that beholderkin do not reproduce sexually, so assigning a gender to one might be rather amusing.
Also, public baths which are not (to some degree) segregated by species might be a problem, as some species carry diseases or toxins which could contaminate the water. Also, I don't think anyone would want to share the pool with sentient corporeal undead (especially not with a lich)
""Center of All, I believe that the book "In the Cage" specified that the Harmonium passed law(s) prohibiting public nudity, at least when you're not on private property like the Great Gymnasium and the like.""
How would that even work? I mean, does it only apply to races with external genitalia, or will elementals be forced to wear thongs as well, or something? (Though I doubt inner planar species are remotely common on Sigil, something tells me that convincing an elemental to wear clothing isn't going to be an easy task...)
I'm not convinced that's the case. I see where you're getting that, but I think there are better interpretations.
The Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix III says: "An elemental in the strictest sense of the word is a spiritual creature found only on the planes of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water that inhabits its respective element. It flows freely throughout its plane, and when it wants to interact with its environment, it can assume a material form by wrapping a portion of elemental force around itself. (This resultant "body" isn't really the elemental at all.) And the same is true of paraelementals and quasielementals. Both are free-willed spirits that shape bodies for themselves out of their environments."
By this definition, the elemental matter that surrounds an elemental spirit could be considered its "clothing," and the incorporeal, presumedly invisible spirit that is the elemental proper would only be naked if you couldn't see it.
But not only do elementals not have genitals, they don't really have bodies as such. There's no way they have physical sex, since they have no true physical forms to have sex with.
The Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Master's Companion (from the OD&D Companion Set) says "small elementals are created when a large elemental splits itself. When this occurs, the "parent" elemental divides into a number of parts equal to its Hit Dice; each new elemental has 1 Hit Die. This does not occur frequently, and elementals are very secretive about the details of this process."
The Planar Handbook says that "Elementite swarms are actually premature forms of standard elementals. On average, one or two individual elementites in each swarm may eventually grow up to be Small elementals," which adds an additional stage to the life cycle suggested in the Companion Set, but doesn't necessarily contradict the general premise.
The 3rd edition Manual of the Planes says "half-elementals are the result of unions between elementals and mortal creatures or are created by some magical infusion of elemental power into a mortal at birth (usually through strange and often distasteful rites)." The way this is phrased may seem to imply sexual unions between mortals and what the PSMCIII called elementals "in the strictest sense of the word," but I think if this was possible, the "magical infusions" wouldn't be necessary. More likely, that reference referred to other elemental creatures, who can mate with mortals.
In this, The Planewalker's Handbook is probably are best guide. In the description of genasi, it lists the common elemental ancestors of each genasi type; never does it list true elementals, but it mentions genies, sylphs, and nereids.
So that would be my interpretation. True elementals are incorporeal spiritual creatures who reproduce by division, creating elementites. Half-elementals are created either through magic, some sort of nonphysical (and probably also magical) unions between mortals and true elementals, or through sexual unions between mortals and elemental creatures like genies, sylphs, azers, pech, nereids, and the like.
Actually, I think you missed something in regards to half elementals.
""the result of unions between elementals and mortal creatures or""
So it's pretty clear that sexual reproduction (at least with mortals) is one possibility, and that infusion is not always the case.
Also, I was thinking about Imix and Zaaman Rul when I made my earlier post. 2E and Dragon 353 are pretty clear that Zaaman Rul was conceived via sexual reproduction via Imix and (as is revealed in Dragon 353) the late princess of elemental good fire (there would be no reason for Imix to produce Zaaman Rul via division, and in fact he would likely seek means to prevent such a thing if it were something he normally wouldn't have control over)
Granted, this is sexual reproduction between two archomentals we are talking about.
Rip actually did address your point by saying "true elementals" can't have sexual intercourse but elemental creatures like genies, sylphs, etc., can produce offspring sexually.
Genies aren't elemental creatures, they're outsiders (and not only do they possess genitalia, but they are also mammals). The offspring of Genies (or other elemental outsiders such as Salamanders, but NOT mephits, since their offspring are mephlings) and mortals are Genasi. Half-Elementals are specifically the offspring of elementals and elemental creatures (e.g. sylphs, etc.) via either infusion or sexual reproduction (and the materials seem to suggest that it's usually a female mortal and a male elemental). Last I checked BTW, sylphs, weirds, and other elemental creatures don't have genitalia, either.
Also, I have found nothing in the materials to suggest that half-elementals can only be the offspring of non-'nilla elementals.
Well, this is starting to run into thread drift. Anyway, if elementals make their own bodies, it would be a simple matter to make one without, or with (if they want) the proper "equipment" for their needs. "Going without" is considered proper public attire for elementals, I would think.
I have my doubts that outsiders are mammals; they seem to belong to a completely different order of being than prime creatures. Most seem capable of breeding with mammals as well as practically any other kind of animal they choose to dally with. Genies do have mammal-like characteristics, though.
The offspring of a genie and a mortal in 2nd edition was considered a genasi, but 3rd edition retconned that by introducing the half-elemental template as the "first generation" of elementally-influenced creatures. It wasn't really clear what was a planetouched and what wasn't until the publication of Faces of Evil; before that, half-fiends were sometimes considered tieflings, but FoE clarified that tieflings were one-quarter fiendish at best.
Genasi, like other planetouched, are second-generation at best, with their elemental blood significantly diluted. The offspring of a half-elemental and a mortal would be a genasi. Genasi are not, by 3rd or 4th edition standards, the direct descendants of humans and elemental creatures.
This is made explicit in Races of Faerun (and probably elsewhere), page 112:
"The child of an outsider and another creature is a half-fiend, half-celestial, or half-elemental. If one of these half-blooded creatures has offspring with a humanoid, the result is usually a planetouched creature."
This is simple, makes things consistent across the board, and greatly clarifies matters. It makes it easy to tell what creatures typically create half-elementals: you just check the listed ancestors of genasi, since half-elementals are where genasi come from. The answer is never true elementals. Rather, it's usually elemental creatures such as genies or, occasionally, elemental deities (which archomentals might qualify as to some degree).
The article in Dragon #293 is instructive. For example, it contains this paragraph:
"With only a few exceptions, the air genasi native to Faerun are descended from the djinn that once ruled Calimshan. The djinn and djinn nobles often had human concubines, and from these unions were born half-elementals. The half-elementals gained status by serving in the djinn's armies, and their own children inherited some of their elemental nature."
Other possible ancestors of genasi listed there include:
Air genasi: djinn, air mephits (presumedly the genasi are descended from humans and mephlings?), air deities.
Earth genasi: outsiders native to the Elemental Plane of Earth, earth deities.
Fire genasi: efreet
Water genasi: marids, tritons, Umberlee
Genies are certainly elemental creatures. They don't have the elemental creature type, but they're creatures of the elemental planes, and noted as elemental creatures in the PSMCIII. I'm certain that's what Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil (where the template first appeared) and the Manual of the Planes meant. Races of Faerun and Dragon #293 rephrased things to say that half-elementals are always the descendants of (inner planar) outsiders, and I think this matches the original intention.
Sylphs do have genitals, and are explicitly capable of mating with humans. Weirds might, though I don't think there's ever been an explicit call on the matter (there was an "Ecology of the Elemental Weird" that I'd have to review).
Your point about the archomentals is well-taken (though, as you noted, archomentals are a little different from standard elementals, being quasi-divine) and, as I said, I see where you're coming from with this, but in the end, I think the call is pretty clear cut: they're incorporeal spirits; they can't have sex with physical beings. An earth elemental could make a penis or vagina out of rock, but you'd be having sex with the rock, not the elemental. Unless magic is involved. I can certainly see magic allowing sexual unions between humans and true elementals: perhaps the elemental is temporarily transformed into a human, or perhaps it allows the elemental spirit to temporarily possess another human instead of the element it's normally associated with. Perhaps it's simply sympathetic magic that causes an embryo in an already pregnant woman to take on elemental features through magic sparked by the sexual congress. But I think it's clear that sex - not physical sex, and certainly not sex between mortals and true elementals - isn't part of an elemental's natural life cycle.
Zaaman Rul might have been sired through magical means. Imix might have transformed into an efreeti or similar creature in order to sire him. Or Zaaman Rul might have been created through Imix's power entirely through magic, with no physical sex involved.
I kind of doubt that archomentals have true sexes or sexual organs; rather, I suspect they merely have preferred forms that they assume.
I can't find that reference. That doesn't mean it isn't there, but I can't find it.
It seems unlikely to me that the city could pass a law requiring creatures as diverse as lizardfolk, beholder-kin, modrons, slaadi, bariaurs, and cloakers to all wear clothes. How would you draft legislation that could even account for all the diverse forms of genitalia? Slaadi use their claws to reproduce - does that mean they have to wear gloves? Beholders have their reproductive organs inside their mouths; do they have to keep their mouths shut? How do you require bariaurs to wear pants without requiring the same of horses, sheep, and goats? And cloakers are clothes, kind of. Even legislation that specifies humanoids has to deal with the radical diversity of humanoid forms. It seems to me that Cagers would just learn to deal with the occasional flash of skin, since any law like that would require hundreds of exemptions, and just about everyone could find a loophole in it if they really tried.
Note that the Harmonium never had the authority to pass laws in Sigil, only to enforce them. Laws prior to the Faction War were determined by all the factions together, at the Hall of Speakers. The Harmonium were police, not legislators. They could pass laws on Ortho and their colonies elsewhere, but not in the Cage.
""I have my doubts that outsiders are mammals; they seem to belong to a completely different order of being than prime creatures.""
Uh, they're mammals. From what I recall of the art, the males have nipples. The same goes for mephits in 3x if you look at the official art(though in 2E mephits were both neuter and lacked nipples)
""The article in Dragon #293 is instructive. For example, it contains this paragraph:
"With only a few exceptions, the air genasi native to Faerun are descended from the djinn that once ruled Calimshan. The djinn and djinn nobles often had human concubines, and from these unions were born half-elementals. The half-elementals gained status by serving in the djinn's armies, and their own children inherited some of their elemental nature."""
Ah, I hadn't read much about the Genasi in Races of Faerun, so I wasn't aware of that. It does appear that you are correct, even though this contradicts Manual of the Planes which states quite clearly that half-elementals are the offspring of elementals (not elemental creatures) and mortals...
Wait, no, that doesn't make sense! Races of Faerun states that elemental genasi are the offspring between elemental outsiders and humans (true genasi) and elemental outsiders and other humanoid races (non-true genasi). However, the Half-Elemental Template in both Manual of the Planes and Dragon 236 states that it can apply to any corporeal creature (even an elemental-subtype creature O_o)
So basically we seem to have two conflicting versions of what a half-elemental is. Races of Faerun states it is the direct offspring of an elemental outsider and a human (or rarely, some other humanoid). Manual of the Planes and Dragon 326 state that half-elementals are corporeal creatures resulting from the "union" of an elemental and a mortal creature or a (mortal) creature augmented by an infusion or ritual (though the rules in MoTP and Dragon 236 do not limit the template to mortal monster types, and in fact insinuate that it can be applied to outsiders and elementals as well)
""Zaaman Rul might have been sired through magical means. Imix might have transformed into an efreeti or similar creature in order to sire him. Or Zaaman Rul might have been created through Imix's power entirely through magic, with no physical sex involved.""
Dragon 353 is pretty clear that Zaaman Rul is the offspring of Imix and the late princess of elemental good fire. The terms "bastard son" and "illegitimate son" found in the Planescape sourcebooks would also strongly indicate that he is a product of sexual reproduction.
Uh, they're mammals. From what I recall of the art, the males have nipples. The same goes for mephits in 3x if you look at the official art(though in 2E mephits were both neuter and lacked nipples)
You're assuming a) those are actually nipples and not just a part of the body naturally formed by whatever process created outsiders in order to make them more outwardly resemble other humanoids (that is to say, hard humanoid-like outside, creamy elemental center), b) nipples imply only mammals in the Planescape setting (rather than there existing some other order of animal lifeform that also possesses nipple-like structures), c) outsiders are animals, d) outsiders are DNA-based life.
You're talking about a creature type some members of which can literally turn into fire or gas as an innate part of their being. Somehow I suspect they might not even truly be cellular. (Although honestly, I suspect that structures on the microscopic level don't even exist in Planescape in any way resembling real life even for creatures, objects, or substances that exist in real life, considering that for one, matter is not really made out of differing combinations of the traditional Greek elements.)
""You're assuming a) those are actually nipples and not just a part of the body naturally formed by whatever process created outsiders in order to make them more outwardly resemble other humanoids (that is to say, hard humanoid-like outside, creamy elemental center""
Last I checked, humanoid outsiders have internal organs and blood much like mortals do, so no "creamy elemental center" for them unless they're actually elementals.
""d) outsiders are DNA-based life.""
It seems pretty clear that they are, considering that they're flesh-based creatures.
""c) outsiders are animals""
Most of them are (not all of them of course; some are elementals, some plants, some are oozes, and some are aberrations. Oh, and some are incorporeal.)
There's no inconsistency there. Races of Faerun says that genasi are the offspring of half-elementals and humans. It doesn't make any such restriction for half-elementals, which we can still assume to be any offspring of an elemental outsider and any corporeal being.
I think it's likely that the intent is that genasi are only descended from half-elementals who are half-human, and other humans. if a half elemental/half dragon had a child with a human, that child would probably be something other than a true genasi.
That doesn't make them mammals. Mariliths, succubi, and erinyes have nipples too, and they're explicitly not mammals according to Faces of Evil. (Page 7: "Fiends aren't mammals, after all.")
It makes them a form of life with mammal-like attributes. Think of it this way: if aliens were discovered native to a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri, and it turned out these aliens had nipples that functioned exactly like mammalian nipples, would that make them mammals? Of course not: "Mammalia" is a class of the phylum Chordata, which is part of the Kingdom Animalia, which is part of the Eucarya domain that developed on Earth from even more basic Earth life. Nothing that evolved independently on another planet is a mammal (or even an animal as the word is defined in Earth taxonomy); similarities are simply parallel evolution. It'd be like claiming that a cat-like marsupial is a feline because it had feline traits; but no, felines are an family of order Carnivora, an order that is not part of the Theria subclass to which marsupials belong.
That doesn't mean it's sheer coincidence that some outsiders have nipples, hair, and other mammalian attributes; the planes are tied together, the Outer Planes ordered by mortal belief, and mortal forms created and manipulated by beings from the Outer (and, in some cases, Inner) Planes. But they have different origins. Genies are personifications of magic itself (according to Secrets of the Lamp), while mortals are made, presumedly, from base clay by the gods; or they evolved from more primitive forms of life, if that's the way you want to go; or maybe their ancestors were shaped by aboleths in the time before time; in any case, genies and mortals do not share a common ancestor, and fiends and celestials are created either from the substance of their planes or from the substance of souls, and do not have any connection with the mortal bodies that define such classifications as mammal, reptile, or even animal and plant. The soul of a sapient plant could become a marilith as easily as the soul of human.
We don't even know that humans are DNA-based life in the D&D multiverse; it might well be that medieval ideas of inheritance, such as by blood, actually hold true. Outsiders, which are made from spiritual matter (souls, in many cases), could not possibly be DNA-based. Whatever souls are made of (apparently positive energy, if Bastion of Broken Souls is any guide, though they may have originated elsewhere before appearing on the Positive Energy Plane), it's a safe bet they're not made of proteins and nucleotides.
The fact that outsiders are able to breed with just about anything is proof that the familiar rules of DNA don't apply for them.
No, that only indicates that Imix and Bristia Pel weren't married, which should come as no surprise to anyone. They still could have shapeshifted into the form of efreet or used some other form of magic in order to create offspring.
Or for a more specific example, it's like claiming that koalas are a member of the Ursidae family because they look like bears. Or that hyenas are a member of the Canidae family because they look like dogs.
The fact that outsiders are able to breed with just about anything is proof that the familiar rules of DNA don't apply for them.
Exactly. And it's not just outsiders; humans are able to breed with just about anything too, which is completely at odds with the familiar rules of DNA.
Hyena, you keep working on the assumption that science works in Planescape exactly the way it works in real life, when every single reference that talks about it at all says the exact opposite. There are no molecules or atoms in Planescape because everything is made from some combination of the four basic elements (see the Unraveler monster description). Vacuum isn't cold in Planescape (see the description of the plane in The Inner Planes, and the description of inter-sphere space in Spelljammer). Dualism is more valid than materialism in Planescape by the very existence of the soul. Gravity is based on a plane (in the geometric sense) cutting through the center of mass for small objects and is equally as strong as that of a planet for _ship_-sized objects. Heck, all evidence is that the Planescape multiverse is on the order of 10-100 million years old at most, which wouldn't be nearly enough time for human-like life to evolve anywhere.
Biology, physics, chemistry, all science simply does not work in Planescape the way it works in real life.
To be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible that elementals have some kind of sex with each other - it just isn't physical sex, with fluids and genitals and DNA and such. The idea that they reproduce by fission is from OD&D and not necessarily binding on the 1st-3rd edition continuity, although even there the details are vague and it's conceivable that they blend their essences together somehow before dividing into smaller elementals. And elementites might have some other origin that's separate from the fission cycle.
It's possible that this was how Zaaman Rul was produced, with Imix and Bristia Pel blending together incorporeally before Bristia "budded" off a smaller, Imix-tainted version of herself.
And I agree that at least some outsiders have internal organs, since Faces of Evil, Fiendish Codex I and II, and even the Book of Vile Darkness mention them. I wouldn't drink marilith milk, though.
""And I agree that at least some outsiders have internal organs, since Faces of Evil, Fiendish Codex I and II, and even the Book of Vile Darkness mention them. I wouldn't drink marilith milk, though.""
Most outsiders, actually. Prettymuch, anything vulnerable to critical hits has internal organs, since the entire purpose of critical hits is to represent a blow to a vital area.
(Thus, Genies, for instance, being vulnerable to critical hits, are confirmed to have internal anatomy.)
Vital area doesn't necessarily mean internal organ. It just means somewhere more vulnerable to attack than other locations. A Contra-style boss with a giant red flashing weak point would also have a vital area.
And besides, that's starting to get into the "game mechanics = universal physics" perspective that not all people agree with; critical hits could simply be an abstraction of a concept that doesn't necessarily have an equivalent within the game universe.
I'm in this field, myself and I've never really agreed with the idea that corporeal undead and constructs can't take crits in 3.xe. If you take out a ghoul's or a golem's hip joint, it's going to have almost as much trouble as any living being.
Anyway, just because the mechanics say something doesn't mean it equates to reality. Playing D&D in any setting requires suspension of disbelief and I certainly don't think Earth-human-style ideas and concepts can be applied accurately to everything.
Besides, theoretically you should be able to kill someone with a sword in one shot, no matter who they are. A cut to the jugular or a stab through the heart is going to be pretty lethal. HP, weapon damage, etc., are all abstractions. So saying the mechanics define something, thus it's true is a fallacy. The proof is in the pudding and the pudding is the fluff, not the crunch.
Yeah. HP especially is the perfect example: it's not meant to mean nothing but wounds, even though that's how most people describe it. It was originally meant to be an abstraction that represents physical damage, exhaustion, and even pure luck slowly running out. It's just harder to keep that in mind, especially because it kind of sucks both as a player and a GM to have an attack hit, and then describe it as missing but wearing your opponent out a little further. Feels a little disappointing when you miss even though you hit.
Gee, I missed a lot while I was gone! But with reguards to the issue I mentioned about clothing in Sigil, the quote is actually from Faction War, not In the Cage (which explained why ripvanwormer couldn't find it! - Sorry...) It's on page 22, under the heading Clothing, and runs as follows: "Everybody needs clothing - the Harmonium's pushed laws through the Counsil of Speakers requiring it, in fact." I would assume that sexless (or apparently sexless) beings would be exempt, but if the creature has anything approximating human genitalia, it would be required to wear clothing (i.e. no topless Harpies - and yes I know breasts aren't strictly genitals, but it's treated the same... remember the big hullaballo people made about LaToya Jackson's nipple being exposed on t.v.? I figure the Harmonium is probably pretty puritanical in that reguard, too.) Warforged don't have any discernable sexual traits and would be exempt from the ban, same as a golem or a Lich (Liches having no flesh and therefore no sexual organs to hide.) Vampires and the like would have to cover up, etc...
(Janet Jackson, I think that was.)
Oh, regarding the sylph, I just realized that it is indeed an outsider (for some reason I was sure MM2 listed it as an elemental...)
This thread got me thinking about demi-gods. If you look at Zeus' offspring they varied immensely in power. Herakles was almost a god from birth and became one eventually, but most of his half-siblings were barely more than ordinary humans. So I think outsiders, especially the more powerful ones, have some level of discretion regarding the amount of power their young inherit. So some genasi and other planetouched may technically be half of something but just not have that level of gift. In theory, a half-elemental could be bred from genasi. Some aasimar could actually be technically demi-gods, just ones with a weak connection to a parental power...
In theory, a half-elemental could be bred from genasi.
Again, that depends on which source you're using. Races of Faerun (albeit the most detailed) is the only source (between itself, Manual of the Planes, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, and Dragon Magazine 326) which states half-elementals are the descendents between genies and mortals. Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil suggests it's done via transformation/infusion rituals, while Manual of the Planes and Dragon 326 specifically says "offspring between a mortal and an elemental". It's also the only way that their +4 racial poison resistance makes any sense (since it's not a trait possessed by genies)
A mortal (or elemental outsider) producing hybrid offspring from an elemental is no more far-fetched than a Mechantrix (a planetouched descendant born from a union between mortals and either Innevitables or Modrons, which are little more than supernatural living constructs....)
One other thing you might consider re: the original question.
Public baths like what you'd probably find in the Great Gymnasium usually did involve people bathing in the nude. My own experience with Japanese baths was very much naked, and I've seen a couple spas in Spain that were the same. I don't know if this sort of thing is normal in Spain, but there are public baths all over Japan. The one I was at in Sapporo cost about 230 yen and you could stay for a long time. Public baths in most other places I've read about have historically had the bathers nude or "towels only."
In both the Japanese and Spanish baths, they're are segregated by sex. As far as I'm aware, this has also held true historically. Thus, I imagine the Great Gymnasium will be segregated and the bathers will indeed be nude. At the Ditch, I'm not sure. I suppose it could go either way. Then again, I've heard several times that boxers are the oldest type of underwear so maybe people go swimming in boxers.
I could get behind the idea that creatures with obvious genitalia have to cover it in public. A fair number of fiends don't have visible external genitalia. So while a succubus would probably be expected to cover herself in Sigil, an osyluth might not have the same issue. However, in the Great Gymnasium and any other bathhouses that Sigil might have, I am sure the clothes are off.
Modrons are outsiders, and they have organic parts; if "little more than supernatural living constructs" is supposed to be a strike against them, they have as much claim to outsider status as archons, slaadi, genies, or sylphs. The main issue with them is they have little use for genitalia, given that they don't reproduce sexually among themselves. However, perhaps they have them anyway (probably only the upper castes), as part of their role in representing the lawful perfection of the humanoid form. Humanoids can be fitted with inevitable bits in the creche-forges of that species, according to the Planar Handbook, so perhaps that's the most likely origin of the mechanatrix.
Half-elementals can indeed be created via a magical infusion ritual. Physical sex with elemental outsiders is another way. It would, of course, be a good idea to vary the template depending on the exact origin of the half-elemental, just as it's a sensible idea to vary the powers of a half-fiend or a tiefling depending on what kind of fiend was responsible for their existence. That is, a half-dao/half-human should logically have different powers than a human magically infused with elemental force in the womb, just as a half-succubus/half-human should logically have different powers than a half-barbezu. For simplicity's sake, however, people don't always fine-tune their templates to that degree.
Dragon #293 also states that half-elementals can be descended from genies or other elemental outsiders (or deities) and mortals.
If you're going to argue that it's perfectly reasonable for bodiless elemental spirits to reproduce with humanoids sexually, however, mentioning another seemingly preposterous, unexplained sexual union (the mechanatrix) is a poor way to go about it. I personally think the mechanatrix can be decently explained, but I don't think human/elemental sex can be explained nearly so well. If you think both are preposterous (which is a very reasonable position, I think), the fact that one is silly doesn't make the other less silly.
All outsiders are more than physical, they are spiritual beings, made with the energy of their plane, which is affected by the beliefs of mortals on the Prime and other planes. They metabolize faith the way Prime creatures process sugar and protein. A spiritual union can affect the energized flesh of an outsider to create life. Ritual marriage to an elemental, servitor race, or power creates real life that manifests the spiritual traits of the outsider parent to a degree that may be controlled by more powerful, sophisticated immortals. Genitals are optional, they just add to the pleasure of the experience...
The Mechanatrix is just one version of the 'lawful neutral' outsiders siring a child with mortals, though. There are two other versions (one in Dragon 297 and one in Manual of the Planes) with differing names (and I can't recall their names off my head)
Yes, I must admit that I find the idea of mortals and elementals having children to be preposterous. I also find the idea that fiendish creatures being the offspring of fiends who committed bestiality to be equally as ridiculous, but none the less I have seen some of the official materials (admittedly, I can't remember where, I just specifically remember reading some official material/sourcebook that stated or suggested at least some fiendish animals were the result of sexual reproduction with fiends and being flabbergasted). For crying out loud, there's a page on Wizard's Website of a plant monster which is the spawn of a sexual act between a SLIGHTLY genetically modified tendriculos and a fiend. A PLANT AND A FIEND. (man, how emberassing would it be to be bound to perform that task?)
Now, a sexual union between an elemental and say-- a genie or a mephit, (or something like a salamander or triton) I find to be far more plausible, if not likely (provided both partners are of the same element, of course), as it would entail a union between two highly magical beings with an elemental affiliation (and immunity). Whereas with a mortal, there is nothing (barring some serious divine/arcane/etc. augmentations of the mother's body) there is no elemental essence to nurture the offspring's body, and the mother's flesh lacks an immunity to the energy/matter of the fetus.
Of course, such hybrids would not be available as PCs (but then, with the level adjustment, who would want to be a half-elemental, anyway? Or a half-fiend/half-celestial for that matter...)
I honestly don't see why that's so flabbergasting. Do you really think there's anything too far beyond the pale for a fiend to do? Any act, no matter how vile, offensive, or immoral, has likely been performed by innumerable fiends over the course of the multiverse's history. And willingly and of their own free will, at that.
One must assume the inherant magic of the spiritually enhanced fetus can at least partially protect a mortal mother, but one can definitely see some births being fatal to the mother, especially fiendish and fire elemental births. Just imagine a half-demon tearing its way out of the womb with tooth and claw. Not fun for mommy. But to an evil cult of fiend-fanciers the death of the mother would just be a sacrifice to the dark powers that demanded the birth. An angelic birth may not be a walk in the park, the positive energy could be searing too, but the mother would survive and possibly have an easier birth than normal. With a mortal father and an outsider mother things would definitely go easier unless mom had vagina dentata or sucked is his soul during sex...
Good point, but I think that falls under the category of "magical infusion ritual."
Good point, but I think that falls under the category of "magical infusion ritual."
Definitely. This is the only way I think planeborne hybrids make sense. In addition to swapping fluids there is the necessary swapping of essences, of spirit, that alters the flesh of the newly conceived child. Magical creatures must pass on magical traits to their young using magical means...
That actually brings up a good question in regards to demons, devils, and mortals.
What happens if the demon/devil screws up royally, and say-- has sex with a neutral woman or a good aligned woman?
What happens to the fetus?
A demon or devil fetus needs more than just fleshy good nutrients in order to thrive; it also needs evil and law (or chaos) in order to develop. So what happens if these alignment essences are wanting in the mother?
""Definitely. This is the only way I think planeborne hybrids make sense. In addition to swapping fluids there is the necessary swapping of essences, of spirit, that alters the flesh of the newly conceived child. Magical creatures must pass on magical traits to their young using magical means...""
What do you mean 'planeborne'? Do you mean planar native + mortal, or planar native + planar native? Because I think the latter would be far, far easier than the former.
And of course, in the Inner Planes, it is suggested that Chilimba is the offspring of a lava mephit and a magma paraelemental. Such a blood mix would likely make him the most powerful of the mephit lords.
4E materials suggest that Ethak is a... Djinni? (or was it Efreeti?). While one could see this as opening up the possibility that Ethak is half smoke mephit and half genie, I find the idea of him being half-djinni unlikely. As we see in Inner Planes, djinni absolutely despise smoke; it disgusts them (because it reminds them of the efreet for one thing; that and they find it noxious. Though I suspect the association with fire and the efreet is the primary reason for their disdain). So consentual sex between a smoke mephit and a sane djinni is practically out of the question. Now, between a smoke mephit and an efreeti, that MIGHT be possible. Knowing the Efreet however (this is getting into PG13 material here and bordering worse), such sexual relations would not be on equal terms, since Efreet look down on every other race and treat them poorly unless they're capable of kicking efreeti butt (or they're willing to trade something of value). Therefore, if an efreeti were to have sexual relations with a mephit, it would likely be used solely as a way to exert dominance over a 'lesser species', to 'put it in its place' if you will.
Unfortunately, throughout (real life) human history, that is exactly what has been practiced by soldiers during war, and since efreet are a very militaristic/war-like species, well... I think you get what I'm saying. There may well be a whole slew of interesting half-efreet running around on Fire and its neighbors, and some may well hold a grudge against the efreet.
Oh, and, a shameless plug here, but (and she is still in the construction process as far as stats go; my goal is a CR 28 creature without using templates) the herald I created for Cryonax is a naturally-conceived daughter of a qorrashi (ice) genie and an ice paraelemental (the qorrashi was the mother).
When I mentioned hybrids, I was mainly thinking of the planetouched pc races--- tiefers, aasimars, and genasi. But magical beings are magical beings and magic is part of their biology. This could go for children of Zeus or the spawn of dragons, too. Myths abound of gods having children with mortals and begetting assorted monsters. Look at Loki, father of Fenrir, Jormungandr, and Hel by a giantess and mother(!) of Sleipnir by a horse. It took more than combining dna strands to accomplish all of that!
""Vital area doesn't necessarily mean internal organ. It just means somewhere more vulnerable to attack than other locations. A Contra-style boss with a giant red flashing weak point would also have a vital area.""
That would be true if not for the fact that constructs are also immune to critical hits, and some of them possess such areas.
Constructs, inanimate objects, and elementals also possess structural weaknesses-- strike them in just the right place and you'll inflict massive damage. Yet none of those types of monsters (or items) can be crit'd.
""If you take out a ghoul's or a golem's hip joint, it's going to have almost as much trouble as any living being.""
That's not what critical hits represent. Critical hits represent a blow to a major artery or internal organs (or like-- the temple).
Broken bones would have other rule effects, such as decreased movement speeds and constitution.
""they're are segregated by sex.""
That's going to be a problem in the Great Gymnasium unless the neuter and hermaphrodites are also given their own segregated area.
....
Actually, even then it's just a huge can of worms unless polymorph, illusion, and transmutation magics are banned. First of all you have your typical "disguise self" type illusions and your polymorph self transmutations.
Then of course you have spells (I can't remember if there are any in 3E other than a couple polymorphs that turn you into an elemental) that can turn you into ambulatory liquid (a pervert could have fun with that).
Finally, while not actual canon spells, theoretically there would be ones that could temporarily alter one's genitalia (including one to transform a clitoris into a penis)
Making the baths plain anti-magic and anti-psionic zones wouldn't be a good idea because with so many different types of creatures bathing together, you'd at least want abjurations and some types of protective transmutations to work. Plus, theoretically there should be various 1st level spells that temporarily neutralize components of some creatures (such as mucus, toxic sweat, etc-- a neutralize venom spell that poisonous creatures could cast on themselves but does not neutralize foreign body poisons or contaminants could theoretically be 1st level.)
So you'd want some types of magic to work, just not scrying (hey, scrying spells have all manner of perverted uses), polymorph, or illusions, and possibly some other types of spells (evocation will probably be banned as well along with conjurations aside from healing)
""All outsiders are more than physical, they are spiritual beings, made with the energy of their plane, which is affected by the beliefs of mortals on the Prime and other planes. They metabolize faith the way Prime creatures process sugar and protein.""
That is true for the Outer Planes and Astral, but less so for the Ethereal, Shadow, and Inner Planes, especially since some of them have existed since before the existence of mortals.
""Myths abound of gods having children with mortals and begetting assorted monsters. Look at Loki, father of Fenrir, Jormungandr, and Hel by a giantess and mother(!) of Sleipnir by a horse. It took more than combining dna strands to accomplish all of that!""
Yes. but those myths are from a time when people weren't aware of DNA. As for D&D, it's certainly difficult to define scientifically, though less preposterous to envision a spiritual creature and mortal having a child than it is to envision a reptile and a mammal (e.g. dragons and humans) having children.
That's not what critical hits represent. Critical hits represent a blow to a major artery or internal organs (or like-- the temple).
Broken bones would have other rule effects, such as decreased movement speeds and constitution.
This is quite frankly nonsense. It's trying to use D&D mechanics to explain reality which, as has been stated many times before, does not work. D&D mechanics are a facsimile at best, not a direct translation.
Besides, your whole sodding argument about critical hits is complete hogwash when nothing is immune to critical hits in 4e, and crits did not officially exist except as popular house rules in 1e and 2e. If crits actually worked exactly how you described, the concept would remain standard across all editions.
Please do not use mechanics to justify reality. It's a fallible argument at best and just plain wrong at worst. The mechanics are there to provide certain approximations. They are NOT the be-all, end-all definitions of reality in D&D. You CANNOT translate them directly into reality. It doesn't work. With as many changes as there are in the rules, it's impossible to justify reality with them. 3.5e rules are not the be-all, end-all definition of game mechanics.
Not even going to touch the rest of this because I think it's reading far, far too much into something that does not merit it. Seriously, applying DNA concepts to a fantasy, magic game where the rules of physics as we know them are flaunted as part of a regular expression of life? It is pretty ridiculous to me.
""sides, your whole sodding argument about critical hits is complete hogwash when nothing is immune to critical hits in 4e""
I wasn't referring to 4E. I was referring to REAL D&D. Sorry, I couldn't help myself, you HAD to bring it up. (I'm not saying that 4E is a crappy system or anything, I'm just saying it's not D&D any more than you can compare 1E to 3x to OD&D)
Also, Critical hits did indeed exist in 2E, and I believe some 1E books as well. There was an entire LABYRINTH of critical roll tables in Combat & Tactics, for instance, and those were merely the optional rules. Even then, the 2EDMG notes that creatures without discernable anatomy are immune to critical hits (oozes, constructs, and elementals are the examples given)
From this it becomes obvious that the critical hit system of both 2E and 3E is based on striking vital organs and structures such as arteries.
Crits don't work on undead since-- well, do you really think the zombie is going to care if you stab it through the heart or smash its head in, splattering its gray matter everywhere? At worst it'll just be more difficult to eat brains if you pulverize its face. I admit what you mentioned about hip joints can apply to 2E Combat and Tactics critical hit rules, but I don't recall there being any canonical rules in 3.5 for dealing with amputations and disfigurements beyond facial disfigurement, loss of eyes, and massive keloid scars.
Also, what was wrong with my paragraphs about dealing with magic in the Gymnasium? I mean come on, a lot of the D&D spells have a lot of pervert potential, or could easily be adapted to perverted forms (how many jokes have we heard about the Bigby's hand spells?) While on the other hand you might not want to ban abjurant and transmutation spells completely.
I wasn't referring to 4E. I was referring to REAL D&D. Sorry, I couldn't help myself, you HAD to bring it up. (I'm not saying that 4E is a crappy system or anything, I'm just saying it's not D&D any more than you can compare 1E to 3x to OD&D)
This is not about what the real system is (and also Pathfinder which is outright a better system than 3e, disagrees with you too, as constructs and undead can be hit by sneak attacks). The system isn't the end-all and by-all about how things really are.
Take for example real-life, a Car is not a living being and sort of like a construct, and therefore according to 3e rules by immune to critical hits. But if I hit a car with a crowbar, baseball bat, AK-47 or whatever, well it'll wreck the car more if I hit it where there's engine parts, as opposed to the windows or doors. Precision in hitting the right areas helps damage a car more, hence sneak attacks are more likely to damage it. And the thing is while I'm swinging away or shooting at the car, if I'm lucky I might hit a critical part of the car, hence doing more damage to it.
The whole point is that rule systems don't determine how things are in the game world reality too, whether it be 1e, 2e, 3e, Pathfinder, or 4e.
I assume they swim nude. Whether or not it's important to them to be sexually segregated would depend on their culture. I think typical Sigilians wouldn't care: there are too many varied body-types in Sigil for nudity to be a universal taboo there. I mean, there might be some kind of tiny, crazy Sigilian Temperance Union demanding that harpies, dragonborn, warforged, and mezzoloths (just for added comic value) cover up their unmentionables, but I think mostly people would give up on that. Sigil is too multispecies for human-like standards of modesty to take hold too firmly.
Various prime cultures might want to keep things separated, but they'd probably have to build their own baths.