Svaralfheim And questions.

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ShirreKnight's picture
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Svaralfheim And questions.

A few questions I've wondered about Svaralfheim, (Have thought on a game (In 2nd edition) focused on its war against Nidaveleir.

one Major question is any idea on if it would contain Faerzurass, you know underdark radiation, their reasons I see both ways... (e.g. would the drow there retain their innate magic/ the ability to create quasimagical equipment)

Also it mentions that the dwarves fight against "kobolds and derro" as well as drow... hmmn any other monsters you think might be appropiate for nidaveleir in general?

I've allready mentinoed bugbears once.

Finally, Think the Autoressurection of Petitionars, would work in nidaveleir, since theirs no sunrise there?

Thoughts, opinions ideas?

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

One important thing to keep in mind, I think, is that the dark elves (dockalfar) of Ysgard are not closely (or, possibly not at all) related to the drow of the Forgotten Realms setting. They shouldn't properly be referred to as drow at all, since "drow" (from the Elven word dhaerow, or traitors) is a relic of the Crown Wars of Faerun, and not part of the dockalfar history at all. It's possible that the Ssri-Tel'Quessir that eventually became Toril's drow are distantly descended from Svartalfheim's dockalfar, but in the millennia since Toril's drow have been corrupted by demon blood, fallen into the worship of Ghaunadaur and Lolth, and cursed by Corellon Larethian. None of that has happened to the dockalfar, who are non-evil, their culture more like Norse humans than the spider-obsessed drow.

According to Norse mythology, the dockalfar are descended from maggots that formed in the corpse of the frost giant Ymir. That's slightly problematic, since it's also the origin of the dwarves (the same creature as the dockalfar in Norse myth, but not in Planescape). I suggested that the dark elves and light elves were descended from spirits of light and darkness shaped into humanoid form by the Vanir.

The dwarves and elves of Ysgard are based on the creatures described in the Vikings Campaign Sourcebook for 2nd edition, as follows:

The dverge, or dwarves, are powerful wizards. Often they have crow's feet rather than humanoid ones. Sunlight gives them penalties to all die rolls, so they rarely emerge from underground. They make magic items that even the gods covet.

The dock-alfar, or dark elves, are similar to the drow in appearance, but little else. They don't use javelins or crossbows, carry adamantine maces, or use poison. They're not, for the most part, evil, preferring to be left alone. In The Northern Reaches Gazetteer for the Mystara setting, they're responsible for powerful artifacts created using stolen souls.

There's also the pukje, similar to goblins, but many of them are powerful wizards and illusionists. They trade with the dwarves.

I wouldn't include kobolds or derro, since they're not particularly Norse.

Faerzress might exist in Nidavellir, but I'd be careful of making that plane too much like the Prime Material Plane's Underdark rather than a distinctive otherworldly plane in its own right.

Petitioners in Nidavellir would rise from the dead at the same time as their counterparts on other layers of Ysgard, regardless of whether or not the sun was visible.

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

Uhmmmn one problem, IN "on hallowed ground" it said that the drow goddes eilistraee (whos Death in recent material I have NOT repeat NOT taken into acount in my own campaign, incidently) Runs Svartalfheim.

I also dont see "not being particularly norse" as meaning much, yes yes, the planes namedafter ancient names for Vahalla Iknow.

Sorryif I seem a bit dmissive...

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

I don't know what the intentions of the designers were, but I would suggest the following:

Just because the Norse dark elves aren't the standard drow and just because Ellistrasee IS from the standard drow pantheon, it doesn't mean that they can't be allied now.
Many times a deity will "pick up" a group of people that are seeking spiritual guidance. To me, it seems like Ellistrasee (who would be an outcast among the other drow gods) and the Norse svartalfar (who didn't have a strong patron god among the Norse gods) might find each other. The compassionate Ellistrasee might embrace the "outcasts" and might try to steer them more towards acts of beauty and joy (as I believe traditionally, the svartalfar acted somewhat like traditional dwarves) and that race might be happier and grateful to her for the change

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

Quote:
Uhmmmn one problem, IN "on hallowed ground" it said that the drow goddes eilistraee (whos Death in recent material I have NOT repeat NOT taken into acount in my own campaign, incidently) Runs Svartalfheim.

I don't see that as a problem. Eilistraee isn't a drow, either. The actual drow of Toril didn't come into being until about twenty thousand years after Lolth's (Araushnee's) fall from the Seldarine, and Eilistraee was already around at that point, being Araushnee's daughter. Araushnee may well have had origins in Svartalfheim, or otherwise have been connected to the dockalfar in those days (she considered the dark-skinned elves to be "hers" before her fall), and her daughter may have inherited her mother's rulership over them after Lolth was cast into the Abyss.

Eilistraee probably has drow petitioners come to her, but petitioners don't necessarily retain the culture they had in life, and it's not clear the petitioners mingle with the living dark elves of the realm, anyway. The description of the realm implies the living dark elves of Svartalfheim have a society similar to Norse humans (architecture, manner of dress, etc.)

Anyway, Eilistraee's worshiper base is mostly limited to "dark elves who aren't named Driz'zt." She's not going to get very many petitioners from Toril, anyway; probably the living dockalfar make up a much larger percentage of her worshipers than Torilian drow do.

Quote:
I also dont see "not being particularly norse" as meaning much, yes yes, the planes namedafter ancient names for Vahalla Iknow.

Svartalfheim is one of the nine worlds in Norse mythology. Valhalla is Odin's hall in Asgard, another one of the nine worlds. The description of Svartalfheim in the Planes of Chaos boxed set is inspired by Norse myth. Taking that and diluting the Norse inspiration from it robs the area of its distinct flavor, in my opinion. It's not out of the question to go beyond traditional mythology in fleshing it out, of course, but I would be cautious about the risk of making it just like Toril's underdark instead of a distinctive, mythic place all its own.

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

Interesting points, but Another issue I just thought of

would the war in Nidaveleir, being won, and yes lets pretend it COULD HAPPEN , would that be enough to push nidaveleir, into arborea, without the constant tirade of violence and strife... its just an interesting fanon idea thats occured to me.

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

Probably not, since:

1. Eilistraee has exiled herself (for accidentally shooting at Corellon with an arrow during his war with the Anti-Seldarine), and is deliberately avoiding Arborea.
2. The dark elves of Svartalfheim aren't chaotic good. They tend more toward neutral, so Ysgard is more appropriate for them.
3. The other races of Nidavellir are mostly non-good, too.

So even without the war, I think most of the races of Nidavellir would stay put.

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

Svartalfheim is one of the nine worlds in Norse mythology. Valhalla is Odin's hall in Asgard, another one of the nine worlds. The description of Svartalfheim in the Planes of Chaos boxed set is inspired by Norse myth. Taking that and diluting the Norse inspiration from it robs the area of its distinct flavor, in my opinion. It's not out of the question to go beyond traditional mythology in fleshing it out, of course, but I would be cautious about the risk of making it just like Toril's underdark instead of a distinctive, mythic place all its own.

The "dark elves" and "light elves" were originally from Norse mythology and folklore, anyway.

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

I feel that the problem is that while the drow were inspired from the Svartalfen, this inspiration was heavily filtered through Tolkien and then subsequent D&D writers. The AD&D drow have one of the most extensive cultural write-ups of any non-human race; but this canon material now has little resemblance to the original Norse myths.
The Svartalfen (even in the original Norse legends) aren't well-defined. Many scholars find that the references to the Svartalfen are interchangable with the dwarves.

As the Svartalfen are given a little mention in AD&D products, I think they are largely a blank slate that could be taken in several directions.
What are their motivations and goals? What role do the play among the Norse and amongst the planes? It seems to me that there is a lot of potential here for someone inspired enough to put in the effort

For example:
Perhaps some of the Svartalfen are being lured to the embrace of evil by Lloth or by the evil dwarven god Abbathor (as I believe the Svartalfen were traditionally susceptible to greed) and maybe this will cause an internal conflict between the increasingly greedy faction and the majority that are becoming more "frivolous" (in the eyes of traditionalists and their opponents) by following Elistraee. How would a civil war amongst the Svartalfen affect the rest of Ysgard? Would the gods enlist mortal agents to favor one side or another?

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

An interesting idea...

Heres another point

Dokkar, and yggwyrd, Neither of their , albeit cursoray descriptions, sound like places with barracks holding Aginthion or Asuras

One thing im thinking is that Eilistraee and Durgamen brightmantle along with whatever other norse gods may live in nidaveleir, have probaly decided NOT to get involved.

As doing more then granting spells, and granting occasional manifestations, (e.g. sending in teams of einherer, aginthion, asuras, etc) could quickly lead to a gods war that would devastate worshippers on both sides.

So im imagining that Celestials view it as a "De jure prime" area (not sure if I spell "de jure' correctly.

Edit: Just found something ELSE to support this view, Sharlindar, of the dwarf pantheon, also has a realm in nidaveleir, and would probaly want peace (as I think eilistraee would)
so im figuring the gods are pretty muchtotally uninvolved, otherwise they'd have forced some kind of negotiation.

Also keep in mind, whats the path to hell paved with?

my idea for how corruption could come to Svartalfheim... What if say a yotchlol was to come out of nowhere "Just to kepe them on their toes" and some of the ranking priestesses , without losing their faith grew paranoind. understandably so perhaps but...

(I've got a game currently, focused there, the PCs have been on patrol till now, but soon they'll get home and will want to see more of the city and culture.

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

As far as Faerzurass in Nidavellir goes, I have trouble with that. Nidavellir is a generic outer plane. Faerzurass is a specific phenomenon to the underdark of the Forgotten Realms. I would recommend making a Forgotten Realms-influenced underdark-type realm in Nidavellir and have it be permeated with Faerzurass. I wouldn't have Faerzurass go throughout Nidavellir.

This way, if you have some drow from Erelhei-Cinlu who have defected to worship Hel, you can have a Greyhawk-influenced realm in Nidavellir, too. Only this time, it would contain the radiation mentioned in the famous D1-3 modules in their various incarnations.

I admit to not being sure how I want Norse dark elves to be built versus D&D drow in capabilities or history. However, if it became important to me, I would write it down and that would be it. I see the dark elves of the Norse as being similar to the drow, both groups wound up in the same general situation for the same general reasons. I would probably give elves from Svartalfheim different characteristics, origin, and culture, but they would both be just as evil. Even if both races looked exactly alike and were just as evil, having them be totally different in other respect would be just one more way to drive home the many differences of the planes.

The drow history given in the Forgotten Realms is, as far as I am concerned, only one history for them. The Greyhawk history is another. There are countless slices of the Prime Material.

I see Lolth as having drow from at least thousands* of prime worlds under her sway.

* Given the supposedly infinite nature of the planes in general, there would be no reason not to have influence extending into millions or billions of prime slices with drow worshipers. However, given the limits of a prime's mind, worrying about those numbers is pointless. Even visualizing and understanding thousands is difficult enough.

Any one drow high priestess, like Eclavadra, obviously thinks she is high up in Lolth's councils. If some PCs were in hot pursuit of her to the Outer Planes, those PCs would see the Demonweb and Eclavadra from a point of view that saw her and her resources, just one slice of Lolth's power.

If the primes defeated this Eclavdra, and then actually started digging around a little deeper into the Demonweb, they might find out, much to their dismay, that there were far larger amounts of monsters, troops, and envoys concealed among the strands of the web. As far as Lolth was concerned, Eclavdra was just one of many. The next priestess they meet might say, "Eclavdra? She was weak. Would you like to join me? I can promise the most glorious revel of blood and souls!" Even defeating an avatar of Lolth, while significant to primes, is probably a little thing given the scope of time she lives through. Another avatar will be raised soon enough. Perhaps a peripheral revenge will work its way through to the world of those primes in a few centuries, destroying any descendant lineages or nations built.

There might even be more than one version of Eclavdra from more than one slice of the prime.

For me, the situation would be somewhat the same in any Hel-controlled realms in Nidavellir (or for any other drow deities).

As for the auto-resurrection, that is a feature of Ysgard, not the petitioners, so no, that would not work in Nidavellir. (Based on MotP p.90)

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

Quote:
As for the auto-resurrection, that is a feature of Ysgard, not the petitioners, so no, that would not work in Nidavellir. (Based on MotP p.90)

I don't understand this comment. Don't you consider Nidavellir to be part of Ysgard?

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

ripvanwormer wrote:
Quote:
As for the auto-resurrection, that is a feature of Ysgard, not the petitioners, so no, that would not work in Nidavellir. (Based on MotP p.90)

I don't understand this comment. Don't you consider Nidavellir to be part of Ysgard?

I think he just misinterpreted that passage he cited. RainOfSteel, that trait in page 90 is referring to Ysgard the plane, not Ysgard the layer, since it's a listing of planar traits. It's active in all layers of the plane. You could argue that it means the resurrection effect only works on a literal battlefield, but even then, it would still work on a battlefield in the layers of Muspelheim or Nidavellir.

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

Yes, I was going on a layer by layer basis when reading that.

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Re: Svaralfheim And questions.

Sorry for ressurecting this old thread but have to get this out in the open.

Palomides wrote:
I feel that the problem is that while the drow were inspired from the Svartalfen, this inspiration was heavily filtered through Tolkien and then subsequent D&D writers. The AD&D drow have one of the most extensive cultural write-ups of any non-human race; but this canon material now has little resemblance to the original Norse myths. The Svartalfen (even in the original Norse legends) aren't well-defined. Many scholars find that the references to the Svartalfen are interchangable with the dwarves.

As the Svartalfen are given a little mention in AD&D products, I think they are largely a blank slate that could be taken in several directions.
What are their motivations and goals? What role do the play among the Norse and amongst the planes? It seems to me that there is a lot of potential here for someone inspired enough to put in the effort

For example:
Perhaps some of the Svartalfen are being lured to the embrace of evil by Lloth or by the evil dwarven god Abbathor (as I believe the Svartalfen were traditionally susceptible to greed) and maybe this will cause an internal conflict between the increasingly greedy faction and the majority that are becoming more "frivolous" (in the eyes of traditionalists and their opponents) by following Elistraee. How would a civil war amongst the Svartalfen affect the rest of Ysgard? Would the gods enlist mortal agents to favor one side or another?

An idea kind of like this I had... is a Victim of the war, possibly from either side, whos killed but the band he was with didnt have a cleric, but a Mage impulsively trys using Reincarnate, and winds up generating someone of the other sides Racial stock, hes given a long term undercover mission with promises of an "Eventual cure" but he grows bitter and trys playing both sides off on each other seeing himself as a 3rd party now.

Thoughts?

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