Some questions on obscure planar lore...

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Hyena of Ice's picture
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Some questions on obscure planar lore...

This is mostly in regards to whether or not certain things have been mentioned in greater depth in other sources.

1. Is the 566th layer of the Abyss, SoulFreeze, mentioned anywhere other than in the Inner Planes book? What about its lord, Aseroth (yes, I know he's listed in the Demon appendix in Fiendish Codex I) If so, where?

2. Are the purposes of the four towers located in the positive quasiplanes near the border with Positive ever explained in any canonical books or sources?

3. Is the "Frozen City of Teliggin" mentioned in any places other than a single sentence in the Inner Planes book?

4. Any info anywhere on Abyss Layer 340, the Black Blizzard? (Again, other than Fiendish Codex 1/Hordes of the Abyss)

5. How about Abyss Layer 230, the Dreaming Gulf? (Again, other than Fiendish Codex 1/Hordes of the Abyss)

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

Soulfreeze has a brief writeup (a few paragraphs) in the new Demonomicon. Aseroth is described as an elemental prince turned demon lord.

-Brian

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

The Dreaming Gulf is elaborated on in the FC1 web enhancement and in various issues of Dragon. Most of James Jacobs later Demonomicon entries mention it to some degree, especially the Demogorgon one, which elaborates on the layer's origin. The layer is also briefly described in the 4e Demonomicon book.

I would check the Planes of Chaos poster map for more on the other two. Aseroth, I think, originated as a mere name in the 1e MMII.

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

I should have mentioned that I don't care about what the mess known as 4E claims (way too much discontinuity with previous editions of D&D, and I'm NOT referring to the mechanics, here). I'm only talking about 1-3E and maybe (by a longshot) BD&D (i.e. Mystara).

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

Hyena of Ice wrote:
2. Are the purposes of the four towers located in the positive quasiplanes near the border with Positive ever explained in any canonical books or sources?

While there is nothing off the top of my head that directly connect with this, the Lumi, a race of purity-obsessed LN outsiders from the 3.5 MMIII, might make for an interesting possible (if noncanon) connection. They are described as building large, shining crystal buildings on the positive material plane. Seems to vaguely match a few of the descriptions of the towers (though not all).

By judging from the descriptions in the 2e Inner Planes book, it seems like they have a special connection to the Positive Energy Plane. The Heart of Light, also known as the Tower of Healing, channels healing energy. So I would guess they might act as conduits for pouring positive energy into these positive quasi-elemental planes. The towers seem to be their respective planes' link to the Positive Energy Plane.

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

Hall of Heroes for 1st/2nd edition (it's labeled 2nd edition, but most of the stats are 1st edition) mentions the Citadel of White Exile located on the border between the "Plane of Gems" (presumedly, the Quasielemental Plane of Mineral) and the Positive Energy Plane. The Nameless Bard (Finder Wyvernspur) was imprisoned there by the Harpers for centuries. Presumably there's more detail in the novel Azure Bonds or its sequels. It doesn't sound like this is the Tower of Lead, which isn't white, and the Citadel of White Exile doesn't seem to have anything to do with forging - but maybe the Citadel is where the people in the Tower of Lead disappear to.

Dragon #174 says the most common place to gather ioun stones is "from the safety of the great, lead towers that protrude along the border of the Positive Material and Mineral planes."

"These towers, which extend deep into the Positive Material plane, are totally unaffected by the disintegrating power of the energy. Within a few of these bastions live beings of immense power, such as spellcasters of 18th level or higher, powerful creatures from the outer planes, and even powerful visitors from parallel Prime Material planes. From these lead sanctuaries, they perform studies of the Positive Material plane, seeking new ways in which to use that power and thus augment their vast arsenals of magic."

The 1st edition Manual of the Planes says "the origin of these towers is as yet unknown." I'm tempted to propose some kind of anti-Doomguard faction that died out long ago (probably long before the actual Doomguard was founded). If the lumi built the towers, apparently they've abandoned their creations for some reason. Maybe there's some kind of curse they're avoiding. Maybe the Doomguard cursed them!

I feel confident that Teliggin isn't mentioned anywhere else.

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

Ah, I thought I remembered the Tower of Lead was mentioned in Dragon 174, but I didn't find it again when I skimmed through a single page I printed out.
Thanks for the info.

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

ripvanwormer wrote:
The 1st edition [i]Manual of the Planes says "the origin of these towers is as yet unknown." I'm tempted to propose some kind of anti-Doomguard faction that died out long ago (probably long before the actual Doomguard was founded). If the lumi built the towers, apparently they've abandoned their creations for some reason. Maybe there's some kind of curse they're avoiding. Maybe the Doomguard cursed them!

Not to threadjack, but the "anti-Doomguard" is basically the same explanation I'm currently leaning towards. Four towers bordering the Negative Energy plane, four towers bordering Positive Energy, it fits the Parallelism theme of the Inner Planes really well. (Not to mention with a PC Doomguard Air Genasi Sorcerer interested in the Quasielemental Plane of Lightning, I know that tower will come up sooner or later.)

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

What about Arcolantha? Any theories on that?

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

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What about Arcolantha? Any theories on that?

It might have been something created by the Wind Dukes of Aaqa to preserve species threatened by the encroaching hordes of the obyriths. Or it might be an experiment by the Ancient Ones, or Risik, detailed in supplement DMGR5, Creative Campaigning. The Risik created a demiplane known as Chanak as a laboratory into which they snatch species and cultures from thousands of different worlds to see how they'll interact (or for other, unknown reasons). The Risik might be using the Paraelemental Plane of Ice to store species they haven't yet introduced to their artificial world. Or maybe Arcolantha was created by a nature god gone mad, whose obsession with preserving life inspired her to freeze every single animal on her world, leaving the planet uninhabited. Maybe the animals aren't "real" animals, but spirit animals that represent the secret part of the soul, and somewhere there's a world where every human is a dazed, hollow thrall, unable to mount any resistance against the tyrant who controls them while their spirit animals remain imprisoned (inspired by The Golden Compass by Philip Pullman). Maybe Arcolantha was created by someone who sought to pull part of the Beastlands into another plane.

Quote:
Not to threadjack, but the "anti-Doomguard" is basically the same explanation I'm currently leaning towards. Four towers bordering the Negative Energy plane, four towers bordering Positive Energy, it fits the Parallelism theme of the Inner Planes really well. (Not to mention with a PC Doomguard Air Genasi Sorcerer interested in the Quasielemental Plane of Lightning, I know that tower will come up sooner or later.)

The question is what the opposite of the Doomguard would be. They wouldn't merely seek to diminish the flow of Entropy, since there are Doomguard who feel that way. They would scarcely be able to conceive of Entropy at all; the end of things, and how fast it arrives, wouldn't be their concern. Instead, they'd be obsessed with creation, the beginning of things, seeking to research how things began and perhaps create new beginnings. But whoever created the positive energy towers seems to have abandoned them long ago.

Parallelism, of course, has mixed results. The various elementals do seem to parallel one another, but frost salamanders really don't seem to have anything to do with flame salamanders.

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

ripvanwormer wrote:
Quote:
Not to threadjack, but the "anti-Doomguard" is basically the same explanation I'm currently leaning towards. Four towers bordering the Negative Energy plane, four towers bordering Positive Energy, it fits the Parallelism theme of the Inner Planes really well. (Not to mention with a PC Doomguard Air Genasi Sorcerer interested in the Quasielemental Plane of Lightning, I know that tower will come up sooner or later.)

The question is what the opposite of the Doomguard would be. They wouldn't merely seek to diminish the flow of Entropy, since there are Doomguard who feel that way. They would scarcely be able to conceive of Entropy at all; the end of things, and how fast it arrives, wouldn't be their concern. Instead, they'd be obsessed with creation, the beginning of things, seeking to research how things began and perhaps create new beginnings. But whoever created the positive energy towers seems to have abandoned them long ago.

Parallelism, of course, has mixed results. The various elementals do seem to parallel one another, but frost salamanders really don't seem to have anything to do with flame salamanders.

That's a pretty good idea, in terms of focusing on them creating instead of merely opposing entropy. My only concern is that they might overlap with the Expansionists. It's not quite the same idea, but it seems similar somehow... then again, maybe the Expansionists are the only remaining offshoot of this group, unaware of how far their own history extends?

And while Parallelism is by no means perfect, The Inner Planes does specifically mention it as something greybeards like to speculate on.

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

I think they should be focused specifically on the origins of the multiverse and the creation of all things. They should be interested in making entire worlds.

The premise of the Expansionists is basically, "all things should grow and evolve," which seems fairly distinct, focusing on progress rather than origins.

I could see the Expansionists as the other faction's heirs, though, continuing the work the original group began. "Okay, we're done. We know where things came from. Where do we go from here?"

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

""That's a pretty good idea, in terms of focusing on them creating instead of merely opposing entropy. My only concern is that they might overlap with the Expansionists. It's not quite the same idea, but it seems similar somehow... then again, maybe the Expansionists are the only remaining offshoot of this group, unaware of how far their own history extends?""

I don't know what the Expansionists' creed is (as I do not much care for the factions, honestly), but an anti-entropy sect's creed would be, primarily, that the Multiverse is still in the middle (if not early stages) of the creation cycle (as opposed to the Doomguard who believe the Multiverse is nearing the tail-end of the creation cycle) They probably wouldn't interfere with the process any more than the Doomguard would, since in their minds the role of creation would be primarily that of the powers and abstract forces. More likely they'd only interfere with the meddling of mortals and outsiders (such as fiends), and possibly fight to prevent rifts to the Far Realm from opening. Of course that makes both them and the Doomguard vicious enemies.
Yet on the other hand, the Doomguard and the anti-doomguard aren't necessarily going to take mirrored views towards things.
For instance, the anti-doomguard might view the Doomguard as utter fools for designing and releasing the entropes, since they might view their manufacture of planar breaches as aiding the creation process rather than causing the scientific definition of entropy.

The base of operations for such a sect would most logically be in the Deep Ethereal, in a region teeming with protomatter.
The planes of most relevance to them would be (in the following order) Ethereal, Positive Energy and bordering regions of positive Quasielemental, and the Astral (birthplace of belief and thought) These are the only planes (as a whole) that would be of interest to the anti-Doomguard, since sages posit these planes as the sources of the creation cycle. (there would of course be lesser interest in the other elemental and paraelemental planes, buildingblocks of the Multiverse)
Ethereal= potential, possibility
Positive= souls and the spark of life
Astral= belief, womb and grave of the first powers

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Re: Some questions on obscure planar lore...

Oh, I totally forgot to finish answering the Dreaming Gulf question.

The Dreaming Gulf was once the layer called N'gharl, which now takes the form of the N'gharl Seed since a now-dead pantheon ripped its essence from the plane. What remains in the Abyss is "a gulf of wind and darkness" while the N'gharl Seed has possessed a fiendish tyrannosaur, striving to be born again. Most of what there is to know about the Dreaming Gulf today can be found on the Forgotten Realms wiki and on the WotC website.

4th edition Demonomicon adds that gates to the Dreaming Gulf can be found within mortal dreams.

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