From what I understand, the Pact Primeval was a document drawn up by Asmodeus, and it allowed him to gain control of the Nine Hells, screw over the Celestials, and declare "Read the Fine Print" in a moment of awesome legal-jujitsu. Does the Pact Primeval exist within Planescape setting, or is it just a story told by berks who think they know the dark of it all? And where can I find any canon details about the early Great Wheel? Also, I once read that the Devils and Demons once signed a truce to deal with the Illithid Empire, is this a canon part of PS?
Some Questions about the Pact Primeval and the Early Multiverse
Mon, 2012-03-19 22:43
#1
Some Questions about the Pact Primeval and the Early Multiverse
Tue, 2012-03-20 17:50
#3
Re: Some Questions about the Pact Primeval and the Early ...
My understanding is the Pact Primeval was made after Planescape, in 3e. Asmodeus was never mentioned by name in PS as far as I recall, I think the biggest hint about him was his ruby rod.
I'm not sure about ancient Planescape history, in canon I don't think it was ever detailed. I remember Monte Cook wanting to do a story where PCs go back in time to a point where there is only one Upper and one Lower plane.
Planescape had an ancient history of the Lower Planes, where the baernoloths create the yugoloths and they (I think through their proxy the ultroloth General of Gehenna) cleanse the race by putting Chaos and Law into different larva that end up becoming the tanar'ri and baatezu.
3e had a good amount of information on the history of the Lower Planes, but I think the books on Abyss and Hell might have contradicted each other. I know in the 3e Abyss Book, Hordes of the Abyss, the obyrith existed before the tanar'ri but were broken by the eladrin after the Queen of Chaos was defeated in battle by the Wind Dukes of Aqua (elementally lawful beings of air).
In 3e, it is suggested but never ascertained that the baernoloths may have created the obyrith.
In 3e there are two major planar empires that I rememeber - the spellweavers and the illithids. The illithids were undone by slave rebellions, I think specifically by the race of Gith, which fractured into the Githyanki and Githzerai. The spellweaver empire crumbled due to their goal of reaching a higher state of existence going wrong.
The spellweavers can, in theory, return to the time of their ancient empire utilizing an artifact of their own design called the Codex of Reversion.
That's off the top of my head, I'm sure there is more.
Tue, 2012-03-20 18:07
#4
Re: Some Questions about the Pact Primeval and the Early ...
Thanks, I'll look over the books mentioned. Maybe even write up an article about it and post it here. In which books are the Spellweavers mentioned? Are there any books on the Elemental Planes? Besides the Standard Planar Handbooks, I mean.
Thu, 2012-03-22 15:33
#5
Re: Some Questions about the Pact Primeval and the Early ...
The primary elemental plane sourcebook is The Inner Planes by Monte Cook and William Connors.
I remember Monte Cook wanting to do a story where PCs go back in time to a point where there is only one Upper and one Lower plane.
Also one Chaos plane and one Law plane.
Thu, 2012-03-22 17:15
#6
Re: Some Questions about the Pact Primeval and the Early ...
Spellweavers had a whole ecology in Dragon 338. That's probably the most informative source.
There's some tidbits in one of the adventure paths, I can't remember which one though.
Oh, also in 2e Monster Mythology there is a creation story about how Io, the Ninefold Dragon and greater power of dragons, exists in the "true" Void, and from that creates the Shadow Void from which the other gods are able to help define creation.
Essentially, Io is the god capable of creation "ex nihilo".
There's another article in Dragon as well that has a story that Erebus existed in the Void, I think he was the only thing in the Nothingness and wants to return to the darkness.
I wrote a whole thing about him, Pale Night and Sun-Sing I'll try to find...
Fri, 2012-04-06 21:48
#7
Re: Some Questions about the Pact Primeval and the Early ...
I also wrote quite a bit about the early multiverse in my timeline topic. It's a jumbled mess and longass read, but good. I have a good bit of stuff on Asmodeus/Aeshma, the Law-Chaos war, and the Archomentals. In particular, there is a LOT concerning the birth of Zaaman-Rul, Brista-Pel's murder, and many events associated with it (including a history of the horrific artifact used by Chilimba to kill her) I also used some events to explain away the near-identical natural histories of many prime worlds (e.g. dinosaurs, ice ages, etc.) Another artifact mentioned in detail is Winter's Resurrection, an artifact every bit as powerful if not moreso than the Rod of 7 Parts (like the rod, it has been scattered across the multiverse in pieces-- 99 to be exact.. or was it 100? Or maybe it was 999... can't remember which. Originally, it was only scattered across the Inner Planes, but a lot of time passed since then.-- It holds the power to alter the power of the inner planes, shifting it towards water and air. Originally, it was crafted by the Elemental Lords and Archomentals of Water, Air, and Ice to restore Air and Water which had by that point been almost entirely snuffed out by Earth and Fire. The use of the artifact created an ice age on most prime worlds, roughly halving Earth and Fire from what it is now-- and reducing Earth and Fire by about 80% from what it was at that time, so that tells you just how powerful this artifact is.) Actually, The Winter's Ressurection probably is more powerful than the Rod of 7 Parts, but its powers are far more limited (all of its powers relate to the elements of Air and Water, and Paraelemental Ice)
/forum/so-when-exactly-was-lawchaos-war
I used quite a bit of Greco-Roman mythology for the early stuff, since the Protogenoi (race that preceeded the Titans but are usually confused with/placed into the same category as them in popular media-- That Revenge of the Titans movie really sets me off-- WTF, why are the Protogenoi, Titanes, and Gigantes all working together? Especially since the Protogenoi and Titanes hate one another! BTW, Gaia is a protogena and not a titan.)
Wed, 2012-03-28 19:51
#8
Re: Some Questions about the Pact Primeval and the Early ...
I've also written quite a bit about the religious beliefs of outsiders and elementals-- which ties in with their ecology.
Simply put, the ecological role of all outsiders and elementals is twofold-- protect/cleanse their native plane from alignment or elemental impurities, and expand their plane's influence.
One way or another, all elementals and outsiders are born from their native plane's essence. Because of this, even the impious loths and Tanar'ri view their home plane with a sort of reverence, and view it as a living, sentient entity, and the embodiment of fate (which appears to be true in the case of the Abyss). Many even worship their native plane in the same way that Gaiaists worship the earth, while others view one or more of the powers of their native plane to be the embodiment or incarnation of that plane's will or sentience. And, many of these powers-- be they true powers or quasipowers (demon princes, archdevils, slaad lords, archomentals, etc.) themselves believe that they are the embodiment of their plane's will.
Of course, even among members of the same race on the same plane, not everyone can agree upon what their plane's will actually is regarding one subject or another.
These differing views, in addition to the instincts to purify and expand their plane's influence, are the cause of wars and dichotomies between the different elements and alignments.
Hellbound: The Blood War and (for 3rd edition) Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss are good (somewhat contradictory) sources for early history. You might also take a look at Epic Evils (for 3rd edition), which has a variation of the story of how Asmodeus went to war against the original inhabitants of Baator. Guide to Hell (for 2nd edition) might be worth a look too, for a completely different take on the subject of what Asmodeus is.
There aren't a lot of canon details about the early Great Wheel, since it was eons ago and some stuff is supposed to remain a mystery. Whether or not the Pact Primeval exists within the Planescape setting is up to you, really, since WotC stopped publishing anything under the Planescape label. My guess is it probably does, but maybe not in exactly the way the story is recounted in Fiendish Codex II. If we're talking about the very early Great Wheel, none of the present-day gods were around, and it's possible that no gods were around yet at all. Any pact probably would've been made with pre-divine beings, the early personifications of Law.