There's another evil archomental, Bwimb, who arguably had just as valid a claim to be an Elemental Prince of Evil as Cryonax has. The only difference is Cryonax has more power and influence to back up his claim. It's possible that Cryonax has no more of a connection to the Elder Elemental Eye than Bwimb did, but he claims he does in order to support his delusions of grandeur. Maybe Bwimb claimed the same thing, but no one listened to him.
So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Sun, 2011-05-08 15:21
#103
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Sun, 2011-05-08 15:55
#104
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I don't think Bwimb or his daughter are archomental-level though; I think Bwimb was more like Gazra, and that Bwimb II is either weaker or lacks her father's charisma *I dunno, but somehow I got the impression that her attempts to pollute Ben-Hadar's realm are desperate attempts to be aknowledged*. The only other true evil archomental I'm aware of is Sun-Sing of Vacuum, who may well have been corrupted by something-- maybe the Obyrith or the Yugoloths (his nature is more yugoloth-like, but he did have extended contact with the Obyriths-- maybe he ate one too many Demon Princes...)
Also, if Bwimb did make such claims, I would assume that there would be rumors of such. Besides that, it makes little sense to create an Ooze archomental when water is already covered. Likewise, do not forget the note from the cultists in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, which mentions Cryonax as an evil prince (and hints that he was sired by the Elder eye), but states his participation is unnecessary *although it might have been the doom priests, which would be in regards to Tharizdun; I cannot remember which*
Ah, here we are. Yup, it was the doomdreamers. The papers mention another being, Cryonax, as the Prince of Evil Ice, but that he is not needed for this duty. They mention that few know that the Elder Elemental Eye spawned these beings and fewer still know that the Elder Elemental Eye is truly the Dark God Tharizdun. It's stated that this information was gleaned via communications with the Dark God himself, so yeah, it's prettymuch confirmed that Cryonax was sired by the eye if the mad but illuminati-like doomdreamers claim it's true.
Thu, 2011-05-12 12:59
#105
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
The Inner Planes said, "While Bwimb II is, in fact, an archomental in the loosest sense of the word, she is among the weakest of that group."
Ooze is as much of a plane as Ice is, as important to the cosmology as Ice is, and no closer to Water than Ice is. Remember that ooze encompasses not just mud, but also acid, slime, poison, disease, and rust. It is crawling worms, protozoans, and festering bacteria, the greatest biomass and biological diversity among all living creatures. It is the silty bottom of the vast oceans, a far vaster territory than the polar ice caps or even the dry land (if you assume Earthlike worlds are the standard across the planes). Bwimb II's domain is a far vaster kingdom than all the forests and beasts.
So why isn't Bwimb usually considered an archomental? Politics. Cryonax commands vast armies and is feared across his plane. Bwimb II doesn't, and isn't.
And yet, Bwimb was once something to be feared, a "great and cruel" general worth the Queen of Chaos's time in bringing into her alliance. I think he fell far over the millennia, his alliances fracturing and his rivals on the planes of Water and Earth stealing away his territory and minions, slowly degenerating, losing confidence and power. And yet while Ehkahk and Chilimba cannot be considered the same sorts of beings that Ogremoch and Olhydra are (since Ehkahk is only a clever mephit and Chilimba a hybrid), Bwimb is essentially the same as the archomentals are: an elemental of great power, corrupted from pure elemental neutrality into evil. He (and his daughter) lack only respect.
Who is to say there aren't rumors that Bwimb made the same grand claims that Cryonax does? I'd hardly expect every rumor in the fictional multiverse to be recorded in our slim assortment of D&D sourcebooks. But if an alliance with the cult of Tharizdun is evidence that an entity is descended from him (I don't think it is, necessarily, but if it is) then there is some circumstantial evidence of an alliance between Bwimb and the cult of Tharizdun. Dragon #304 said that Bwimb was summoned to Oerth by the wizard Baltron, using rituals he took from the Cult of the Black Flame. Since the Cult of the Black Flame doesn't sound much like a Bwimb cult (he's not very flammable), one might assume that Bwimb and the plane of Ooze were only one of the things the cult was concerned with. So who was the banished entity that the Cult of the Black Flame was chiefly associated with? Tharizdun, I'd assume. Also, the Crystal of Ebon Flame artifact, which sounds pretty similar, is associated with Tharizdun in the 4e The Plane Below accessory, but seems reasonable as a Tharizdun artifact in any case.
Sun Sing is a powerful entity, different from Cryonax mainly in that it's a quasielemental rather than a paraelemental. Bwimb and his daughter are paraelementals, and thus a more direct comparison.
The papers mention another being, Cryonax, as the Prince of Evil Ice, but that he is not needed for this duty. They mention that few know that the Elder Elemental Eye spawned these beings and fewer still know that the Elder Elemental Eye is truly the Dark God Tharizdun. It's stated that this information was gleaned via communications with the Dark God himself, so yeah, it's prettymuch confirmed that Cryonax was sired by the eye if the mad but illuminati-like doomdreamers claim it's true.
Well, maybe. Tharizdun is certainly not above lying to his cultists if it suits his purposes. Perhaps he's concerned that the information he gives them might leak out to the princes of evil; he doesn't want them to know he's Tharizdun, but if they do find out he at least wants them to still regard him as their forebear. Tharizdun might even be lying for the fun of it. Why not lie purely for the sake of lying, because the truth is dreary and deception is always amusing? Tharizdun might not even remember what the truth is, mad and dreaming as he is.
Sat, 2011-05-14 16:52
#106
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
How about this: The Elder Elemental Eye was originally an Omnimental Protogenos, possibly an intermediate power, ranking him below the four Elemental Lords.
He was neutral-aligned.
During the battle between Tharizdun and the Protogenoi, Tharizdun somehow learned of the latter's exact plan to imprison him should they be unable to annihilate him utterly (they wouldn't want his essence to become scattered or sown to the winds, as this could easily have a corrupting effect on the Multiverse, or split him into several powers rather than killing him). Realizing he might not be able to thwart or avoid their planned fate for him, Tharizdun devised a plan in which he could break free of the prison they intend to place him in. The plan requires subsuming the power known as the Elder Elemental Eye, an intermediate power who seeks to maintain the balance between the four elemental planes and their lords. However, Tharizdun cannot absorb the power as it is, so he first finds a way to corrupt it, turning its alignment towards evil.
This may well be another major contributor to the Steam/Positive/Negative crisis. Tharizdun somehow accomplishes this without the other Protogenoi realizing it. The four princes of elemental evil are borne once Tharizdun has 1/4th or half-completed the subsumation of the Eye, for the sole purpose of fulfilling his failsafe plan. As an additional failsafe in the event that either Olhydra or the as-of-yet-born Yan-C-Bin should be destroyed before fulfilling their 'destiny', Cryonax, the prince of paraelemental evil ice, is created, though why he was created before Yanny I have no idea (perhaps Tharizdun was unable to gather the needed amount of air essence to create a pure air elemental at the time)
I am in doubt that Bwimb was one of the Eye's offspring, as this would have been quite redundant, unless Bwimb was created before Olhydra and for the same reason as Cryonax (something that I doubt, as Bwimb seems to have been physically weakr than the other five, whose personal combat prowess seems to be determined solely by age) It is however possible that a Prince of paraelemental evil magma might have been born, but subsequently died.
At any rate, the battle to defeat Tharizdun lasted centuries if not millenia, and by the time Tharizdun was imprisoned, the process of absorbing the Elder Elemental Eye was already complete-- or at the very least, mostly complete (maybe Ghaunadaur devoured what little remained of this power, explaining why they're both known as the Elder Elemental Eye...) By that time, the Protogenoi were probably well aware of what Tharizdun had done, but probably not why, or that the Princes of Elemental Evil were created by him *or the eye*.
If the Elder Elemental Eye's portfolio was originally maintaining balance between the four elements, then its corruption and destruction would have had a drastic detrimental effect on the Inner Planes, no longer held in check.
Combine this with the Pre-Cambrian explosion analogue and the tumult from the Draeden war, and you have a perfect recipe for Inner Plane upheaval.
What do you think of this idea?
Sat, 2011-05-14 21:59
#107
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
That all sounds reasonable.
Mon, 2011-07-04 19:06
#108
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I've also been (for some time) toying with the idea of Cryonax slaying a cold-related Obyrith lord during the Law-Chaos war. This lord was attempting to depose of Cryonax in order to establish a foothold/base of operations on Paraelemental Ice, in order to gain an advantage against the Wind Dukes and other forces of Law. This act solidified Cryonax's alliance with the forces of Law and made him a fierce enemy of the Obyrith race (he didn't like them beforehand because they were too impulsive and chaotic for his tastes, but attempting to usurp him personally was a major insult).
I've recently been toying with the idea that the battle takes place at the borders of the Frigid Void (bet. the Ice and Vacuum border, sometimes crossing over one or the other) Cryonax wants to destroy the Obyrith Lord here (having some means of preventing him from being cast back to the Abyss when slain) so that its chaotic essence doesn't contaminate the Paraelemental Plane of Ice. He also intends to devour the Obyrith Lord's elemental essences for his own (but not any other aspect of its essence). The battle attracts Sun-Sing, who is initially hostile to both combatants until Cryonax makes a deal with him (Cryonax gets the Obyrith's water/air/ice essences, then promises to leave. Sun Sing can have the rest of the Obyrith). Surprisingly, Sun-Sing agrees, and the two of them together destroy the Obyrith Lord.
No signs whatsoever of the Obyrith Lord's remains can be found in the area where it was slain today. (It should be mentioned that the battle was initially one-on-one since neither Cryonax's nor the Obyrith Lord's armies could survive that far into Vacuum)
Mon, 2011-07-04 22:32
#109
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I think it would be more interesting/useful if there were some signs of the obyrith's remains: a drifting skull perhaps, turned into a fortress by some ancient ice sorcerer and then abandoned, or at least a tainted region. History is more useful in a game if there's some sign of it that the PCs can visit/interact with. I know the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum is a plane of nothingness, but there are still occasionally some places that can be visited there.
It seems silly to me that most outsiders have to breathe, but yeah, officially most outsiders have to breathe.
Tue, 2011-07-05 01:15
#110
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Yeah, the Obyrith lord had a No Breath spell on it (which Sun Sing dispelled), but the area still had some air, as thin as it was (though Sun Sing kept stealing his breath)
Tue, 2011-07-05 01:21
#111
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Yeah, the Obyrith lord had a No Breath spell on it (which Sun Sing dispelled), but the area still had some air, as thin as it was (though Sun Sing kept stealing his breath)
Perhaps there will be a fortress of some sort.
Fri, 2011-07-15 23:35
#112
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I'll come back to an earlier part of the discussion.
You seem to have set your timeline on a extraordinarily short timescale, placing a few of the main universe-defining moments dozens of millenias before the present. Why is that ?
These last months, I tried to organize my own idea of the timeline from the creation to the present of the multiverse. With much less starting knowledge of it than you have, though.
I chose a naturalist timescale, for two reasons.
First, I like the fearunian creation myth of the Shar/Selune duality. With a certain amalgam with greek primordial gods, one can picture them as degenerate versions of Erebus/Nyx/Gaia and Aether/Hemera/Ouranos, and it can be made to coincide with the physical duality matter/energy, which created our universe as it appeared. The primordial deities of the burning/bright sky, day and sky can be associated with energy (obviously for Aether, indirectly for the day as the energy coming from a star on a planet, and by opposition to earth/matter for the sky) while darkness, night and earth can all be associated to matter and its physical characteristics (darkness being the absence of energy, converted as matter, night being a shadow - energy absorbed by interposed matter - of a planet, earth as the symbol of matter).
Second, the material plane is mostly identical to our real universe. Stars, planets, etc. If they adopted the same final shape, their formation was probably similar. Especially since a universe of stars and planets is not the most optimal form for something created at a whim instead of from physical laws - it's too big, too empty to satisfy most future whims.
I think the material started in a Big Bang, and evolved as ours. Some parts of it "magically" gained intelligence, as Erebus-matter and Aether-energy first, which respectively created Nyx and Hemera as helium fused into heavier elements, and Gaia and Ouranos when these heavy elements coalesced. From their intelligence emerged Eros, which allowed for their reproduction and the creation of titans and the consecutive generations of divine entities, and for life to appear.
That sets a quite different timescale. A universe such as ours has a life expectancy of 30 billion years or so, after which its stars die without being replaced. It can house life from its 2 billionth year on, approximatively. Intelligent life - as per human standards - developped in 3,7 billion years on our planet. Homo sapiens and neanderthalis appeared 200 000 and 250 000 years ago.
Thus the present time for the inhabitants of one planet can be anything from 5 to 30 billion years after the creation of the material plane.
The thing is, there's dozens of intelligent, mortal species on the planes which evolved separately. So to get a good idea of the present time relative to the universe, we have to roll nd30G+5G and take the greatest result, with n the current number of intelligent species.
So, if we follow probablities, and I think we should for there's no reason not to (since records don't give precise figures), we have to count the history of the planes after the arrival of mortals in billions of years. The law/chaos war ended shortly after the tanar'ri took the field, so it would also, if not span billions of years, at least date back billions of years.
If we consider planar history, we have a minimum of 5 billions years of activity among the titans, primordials, etc. Their history was probably accelerating as it went along, but not to the point that most of it happened in a few years before the arrival of the new gods of the mortals (assuming by mortals they meant intelligent mortals).
The creation of the astral and ethereal planes, then of the inner and outer planes, then the organization of the outer planes in the wheel and the establishment of the rules by arhiman/jazirian, all happened progressively during this 5 billions years period. The war itself started at some point during this time, probably when the Great wheel was made (or plundered from the chaos as the FCI in-character text mentions), or when the three rules were enforced. So it would actually span billions of years, though much less than the blood war that followed it.
Sat, 2011-07-16 02:18
#113
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
You seem to have set your timeline on a extraordinarily short timescale, placing a few of the main universe-defining moments dozens of millenias before the present. Why is that?
It adheres to the Forgotten Realms timeline, which is the only one that has set dates going back to the age of dinosaurs (IIRC Oerth's timeline only goes back to the 3000BC analogue, just like our world). Beyond that, I did not set any dates, as there's nothing to go on beyond that.
First, I like the fearunian creation myth of the Shar/Selune duality. With a certain amalgam with greek primordial gods, one can picture them as degenerate versions of Erebus/Nyx/Gaia and Aether/Hemera/Ouranos, and it can be made to coincide with the physical duality matter/energy, which created our universe as it appeared. The primordial deities of the burning/bright sky, day and sky can be associated with energy (obviously for Aether, indirectly for the day as the energy coming from a star on a planet, and by opposition to earth/matter for the sky) while darkness, night and earth can all be associated to matter and its physical characteristics (darkness being the absence of energy, converted as matter, night being a shadow - energy absorbed by interposed matter - of a planet, earth as the symbol of matter).
Second, the material plane is mostly identical to our real universe. Stars, planets, etc. If they adopted the same final shape, their formation was probably similar. Especially since a universe of stars and planets is not the most optimal form for something created at a whim instead of from physical laws - it's too big, too empty to satisfy most future whims.
It has more to do with a reflection of the first forms of life (outside of the Aboleth, which are not a natural product of the Multiverse). The elementals came before the fleshy beings.
Sat, 2011-07-16 07:28
#114
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Fantasy timelines with active gods tend to assume a history on roughly the timescale of Bishop Ussher's 6000-year-old creationist account of earth -- presumably their gods and ours would work on at least somewhat similar timescales.
However, as timelines go, the near-materialist timeline you've set out seems pretty cool and perfectly useful in a game. If you assume that interventionist deities might have conceived and uplifted intelligent species more quickly than evolution did naturally, there is plenty of space for races, empires and ancient horrors to have existed, declined, and decayed beyond all but the faintest recognition. For a twist, have humans be anomalous in being the first race that no god reliably claims credit for creating -- the first natural, non-elemental, non-outsider race of the sort that gods had been making before, arising from natural evolution in a world already populated by elves, dwarves, orcs, and the like.
Sat, 2011-07-16 13:46
#115
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I like a timescale more like our real-world scientific one in some ways, but really I don't think that kind of timeframe adds anything to the game, since numbers that vast are difficult to even comprehend and it's not like anyone's history will be so detailed that that you're ever going to fill up a span of millions of years. Instead you'll end up with eons of empty time that aren't really directly benefiting the campaign. Considering all the history that can happen in a mere thousand years, most of D&D history can easily fit in 35,000 years or so, as it does in the Forgotten Realms timeline.
So I'm okay with a more mythic timescale of (tens of) thousands of years rather than millions or billions.
There are a few Spelljammer references to things that happened millions of years ago (the destruction of the atmosphere of Kule and the empire of the thri-kreen, for example - see Paul Westermeyer's Spelljammer timeline here), but that's not necessarily incompatible with the idea that other things (the end of the Law-Chaos war, the creation of the elves, the creation of the gnomes and kobolds, Gith's rebellion) happened during the periods that the Forgotten Realms timeline said they happened.
So I'd assume that the first two eras mentioned in the Forgotten Realms timeline, the Blue Age and the Epoch of Shadows, took place over an extremely long era (possibly millions of years!), and there must have been ages even before that when the planes were still forming. It's conceivable that the Forgotten Realms history is much, much shorter than the history of most other worlds, but for those events that happened on multiple worlds, I'd favor syncing them up.
HOWEVER, some people are busily writing a billions-long history of Mystara in this thread on the Piazza, if you're interested. That's another world that doesn't need to be anything more than tens of thousands of years old per canon, but there's no reason it couldn't be older if that's what people prefer in their own campaigns.
Sat, 2011-07-16 19:06
#116
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Interesting link, thanks.
My problem with the forgotten realms timeline is that it leaves important holes in the subjects it doesn't cover.
If the battle of pesh happened in -30 000, that necessitates the creation times to be quite recent. But that also supposes a very widespread and significative intervention of powerful (more so than current gods) creator gods, to create in millions or thousands of years lifeforms that compare with those naturally created by billions of years of evolution. And they are not mentionned, there's nothing like yahveh creating all manner of life on the sixth day. Gods like that would like to be remembered, if nothing more by mad cultists like all forgotten gods have.
The texts also imply that the blood war is often considered eternal, which would at least indicate that it lasted far longer than the wars of the Vaati and of the Queen of chaos, for which no such mention is made. If it started a few ten thousands years ago after the end of the Queen and Miska, that would hardly be eternal for its immortal warriors, considered that even fearunian mortals can get a few thousands years old, and that would place the start of the war Law/Chaos in memory's reach.
With millions (and not necessarily billions) of years since the battle of Pesh, this would not be such a problem, though.
The other thing is that immortal creatures would be newborns compared to their potential age, which would stay billions of years. And they don't behave like they have all their life before them.
Of course one can place the war and its actors in recent times without bringing creation to a much closer date too, but that would leave a bigger hole yet.
That's why it makes more sense to me to use incomprehensible numbers to separate the most ancient events, scattered over billions of years. Memories are hazy on the small developments, but there's a general knowledge of everything that happened since creation. If the player can't picture what the time periods mean practically, well that's a rare justification of the supposedly "alien" mindset of creatures otherwise mundane.
Sat, 2011-07-16 20:26
#117
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
1. The Battle of Pesh wasn't near the time of creation. There were "eons" of conflict before that, and an unknowable time before that. As I said, there are definitely some things that happened millions of years ago. But if the Battle of Pesh was millions of years ago, it becomes harder to believe that there are still surviving geological features from that era (like a still-active volcano), and things like perfectly preserved Wind Duke tombs. While I can believe fiendish races could still be around after millions of years, I have a lot of trouble buying the idea that individuals could survive on violent planes for that long without dying from violence, accident, or boredom. There should be almost nothing left after millions of years that isn't buried beneath geological strata, but there's actually a lot left. Some of the Wandering Dukes who helped create the Rod of Seven Parts are still alive. Most of the archomentals are still alive. The City of Brass is still there. White Plume Mountain is still smoking.
2. I don't think the worlds were created by gods, but more likely by unpersonified mystic forces that are still known today: Law, Chaos, the Ethereal Plane, etc. And these work more quickly than the physics of our universe.
3. The Blood War is eternal in the sense that it seems it will always be, but the Hellbound boxed set does mention a vaguely remembered beginning. This beginning almost certainly was the same as the beginning of the Law-Chaos war, countless eons ago. The Blood War as Planescape defined it didn't begin with the Battle of Pesh, which only changed the focus of the war from the Prime and the Inner Planes to the Lower Planes. But the tanar'ri were battling baatezu long, long before that.
4. If the lifespan of fiends is infinite, then no matter how old they get they're at the beginning of their life. A billion years isn't any closer to infinity than one year. How are billion-year-old creatures supposed to act? I've never met one, so I don't know. How can you tell the difference between how a billion-year-old creature acts and how a ten thousand-year-old acts? What are the differences? Immortal planar creatures don't know they're likely to live billions of years. They know their enemies might kill them tomorrow. Their essence might merge with their plane over the centuries. They might become demented from the weight of their memories. The multiverse itself might end soon. Some are busily working to ensure it does. I think million-year lifespans are incredibly unlikely even for gods. Most act like what they are: beings who are centuries or millennia old. That's plenty alien enough for me.
There may be mortals who have managed to live similar spans of time. You can probably count them on one hand.
If the unknowable gulfs of time before Pesh represent a "hole," it isn't as vast as the holes you'll find in an even longer timescale.
Sat, 2011-07-16 21:53
#118
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
There are a few Spelljammer references to things that happened millions of years ago (the destruction of the atmosphere of Kule and the empire of the thri-kreen, for example - see Paul Westermeyer's Spelljammer timeline here), but that's not necessarily incompatible with the idea that other things (the end of the Law-Chaos war, the creation of the elves, the creation of the gnomes and kobolds, Gith's rebellion) happened during the periods that the Forgotten Realms timeline said they happened.
Problem is that doesn't jive up with natural history or the FR timeline. Praying mantises came about in the Cretaceous not long after the end of the Jurassic, so that destruction SHOULD have happened after the law-chaos war and Tearfall. We know that it cannot be any differently because the natural histories of all non-exotic prime worlds (exotic as in Athas, Avadnu, the Astromundi cluster, etc.) are nearly identical (paleolithic humans were around during the age of the dinosaurs, but other than that, the general histories are identical)
Eberron also mentions events occurring more than a million years ago (such as IIRC the Demon Wars), which doesn't jive up with Forgotten Realms.
Sun, 2011-07-17 04:20
#119
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
The angels-vs-demons game In Nomine talks a little about the personality of such eons-old beings, which of course at some point must be played by a GM or player. It has several ideas which can be very useful in dealing with outsiders.
First, it's possible that they simply don't remember much of the long stretches. Blessed forgetfulness may be blessed to them as well. The more an outsider interacts with mortals, the more they are likely to think on a mortal timescale. This may actually induce forgetting! Which gives a good reason for the powerful old members of their race to hold themselves aloof from "hasty" short-lifes...
Second, immortals have to have some way to keep from being bored, a problem literature has often mentioned. One way to do this is to simply be able to "power down" when you're not urgently required to act at full capacity. If your job is to watch a geological formation grow, then afterwards you may remember mostly the moments when you had a notation to make. Hence the tales of sleeping ancients who awake for brief periods of mighty activity, etc.
Third, and only tangentially relevant but possibly of use for people here, memory may have been lost artificially. This is presented as a possible background for characters: an angel who was once a powerful being, but who through combat lost Forces (the components of a soul in In Nomine) and with them memories. In D&D, energy drain will have a similar effect. Imagine playing a Fighter 1 with psi potential who was once a Fighter 1/Psion 19!
Mon, 2011-07-18 19:51
#120
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I think my points still stand...
Quickly, for rip's post :
I thought about the leftovers from the Battle of Pesh before, and came to the conclusion that they were misidentified from the legends. The volcano was not the same, maybe the planet wasn't either. The tomb was planted there, and there might be a few other replicates around. The rod exists to be found (though by the right hand). It's not based on anything, but I think it makes more sense than supposing (among other things) that the Queen of chaos couldn't send someone to loot and desecrate that tomb during all this time. As for individuals... well, Dagon and a few others were there before the eons of conflict you mention and are still alive after those eons and all the time since the Battle. The surviving ones are a small number compared to their "generation", but they're here. Why not have some more surviving since the end of the war ?
Concerning the Blood war and the law/chaos war... Do you mean that the Blood one existed aside from the other one when it was still ongoing ? If not, I'd say the fiendish codex interpretation is more correct. Especially since the law/chaos war started when the obyriths still held the plain of infinite portals, which would be quite an obstacle to what planescape only describes as a baatezu/tanar'ri war.
On the lifespans of fiends... like you say, they might be killed tomorrow. And being immortal doesn't mean that, barring violent death, infinite life is possible. There's a few indications that the planes aren't eternal. So my point is that they would be aware that their potential time is finite and that they still haven't seen nothing yet. And would try to ensure that they see something. And make the most of their immortality, as they do with the rest of their powers.
Gods depend on mortal followers' belief in them. Immortals depend on their own belief in themselves. I'd say enduring for millions of years is much less likely for gods than for outsiders.
Unrelated note : I just learned that eons serve in the scientific description of geologic times, to mark periods from 500 milion to 2 billion years. It's not the sense we use, but I found that interesting and I have no actual content to put in this post.
Mon, 2011-07-18 22:17
#121
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I thought about the leftovers from the Battle of Pesh before, and came to the conclusion that they were misidentified from the legends.
Possibly, but that changes a lot.
If our suppositions are limited to the official material, White Plume Mountain has been smoking since the Battle of Pesh.
but I think it makes more sense than supposing (among other things) that the Queen of chaos couldn't send someone to loot and desecrate that tomb during all this time.
I don't have any problem assuming the Wind Dukes were able to hide their sacred tombs from divinations. I don't think desecrating the tombs of her fallen enemies is very high on the Queen's priorities. It wouldn't get her an empire back, after all.
As for individuals... well, Dagon and a few others were there before the eons of conflict you mention and are still alive after those eons and all the time since the Battle. The surviving ones are a small number compared to their "generation", but they're here. Why not have some more surviving since the end of the war ?
I can agree with that. It's just that the longer you extend the timeframe, the less credible it becomes.
Concerning the Blood war and the law/chaos war... Do you mean that the Blood one existed aside from the other one when it was still ongoing ?
It's the same war. Just different fronts.
If not, I'd say the fiendish codex interpretation is more correct. Especially since the law/chaos war started when the obyriths still held the plain of infinite portals, which would be quite an obstacle to what planescape only describes as a baatezu/tanar'ri war.
Well, there's no doubt there's a contradiction between the Fiendish Codex material and the Hellbound material, but I think it can best be resolved if we assume that all the early events of the Blood War described in Hellbound were actually early events in the Law-Chaos war: the fiends meeting each other for the very first time, the fiends discovering the Prime Material Plane for the very first time, the fiends discovering how to make more of their kind from mortal souls for the first time, the gods making themselves known for the first time, mortals appearing for the first time. These are all events that happened long, long before the Batttle of Pesh.
The tanar'ri, who the obyriths had created from mortal souls, were the obyriths' soldiers in the war, battling the forces of Law, who (if Fiendish Codex II is accurate) included Asmodeus and the ancestors of the baatezu. That's essentially the Blood War, which was basically just a sideshow of the greater Law-Chaos War until after Pesh ended conflict on the other fronts.
On the lifespans of fiends... like you say, they might be killed tomorrow. And being immortal doesn't mean that, barring violent death, infinite life is possible. There's a few indications that the planes aren't eternal. So my point is that they would be aware that their potential time is finite and that they still haven't seen nothing yet. And would try to ensure that they see something. And make the most of their immortality, as they do with the rest of their powers.
Sure. Why does that mean they have to be millions of years old?
Mon, 2011-07-18 23:30
#122
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Sure. Why does that mean they have to be millions of years old?
In fact, we can be slightly confident that they aren't. Turgalas was said to be one of the oldest tanar'ri, and he was only spawned about a million years ago. You could say that it was artistic license, but I'd doubt someone millions of years old would have been described as spawning a million years ago even granted that.
Tue, 2011-07-19 11:59
#123
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Divinations aren't the only way to find something. If the tomb is on the planet and in the general area of the Battle, the Queen could send something to search for it more mundanely. Even if she doesn't really care about petty revenges, she does have an interest in finding the parts of the rod. It's the key to get her empire back.
The tanar'ri, who the obyriths had created from mortal souls, were the obyriths' soldiers in the war, battling the forces of Law, who (if Fiendish Codex II is accurate) included Asmodeus and the ancestors of the baatezu. That's essentially the Blood War, which was basically just a sideshow of the greater Law-Chaos War until after Pesh ended conflict on the other fronts.
Hm... it would make sense to see it like that, and to talk about the origins of the blood war without mentionning the rest of the war, but only if the talkers have only a vague knowledge of the law/chaos war, for it is too much bigger than the blood war to ommit otherwise, even for fiends. And if it didn't end too far back in time, they would know about it.
It's not an argument for a timescale spread over billions of years, though, just for a blood war that lasted long enough since the Battle of Pesh to make most well-informed planars forget to associate one war with the other.
Why does that mean they have to be millions of years old?
It doesn't. It just means that if they are thousands of years old, they can expect to live millions or billions of years and that they don't act like this is what is at stake.
Tue, 2011-07-19 21:30
#124
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Well, there's no doubt there's a contradiction between the Fiendish Codex material and the Hellbound material, but I think it can best be resolved if we assume that all the early events of the Blood War described in Hellbound were actually early events in the Law-Chaos war: the fiends meeting each other for the very first time, the fiends discovering the Prime Material Plane for the very first time, the fiends discovering how to make more of their kind from mortal souls for the first time, the gods making themselves known for the first time, mortals appearing for the first time. These are all events that happened long, long before the Batttle of Pesh.
Correct. IIRC Hellbound was released BEFORE The Rod of 7 Parts, which is where the Law-Chaos war is first mentioned.
Besides that, even Rod of 7 Parts states that the war culminated with the Battle of Pesh. So it's a given that petitioner technology, discovering other planes, etc. came long before.
The tanar'ri, who the obyriths had created from mortal souls, were the obyriths' soldiers in the war, battling the forces of Law, who (if Fiendish Codex II is accurate) included Asmodeus and the ancestors of the baatezu. That's essentially the Blood War, which was basically just a sideshow of the greater Law-Chaos War until after Pesh ended conflict on the other fronts.
Correct. Though Asmodeus at the time was still considered an angel/aasimon. It is generally assumed that his and his angels' forms began to warp during this time, and that Asmodeus did not become what we see today until some time after he fell to Baator (when he went to Baator, IIRC, he had black wings and hair, and more grotesque facial features, but otherwise still looked like an angel or deva.)
In fact, we can be slightly confident that they aren't. Turgalas was said to be one of the oldest tanar'ri, and he was only spawned about a million years ago. You could say that it was artistic license, but I'd doubt someone millions of years old would have been described as spawning a million years ago even granted that.
Which actually gives us a fairly good timeline (if we were to go with that) on when the Obyriths enacted petitioner technology on a mass-production scale.
This means that the Law-Chaos war probably began between 2-4 million years ago, and Rip says that mortal life did not yet exist when it began (except probably the Aboleth) This would make the Multiverse probably bet. 3-10 million years old.
Divinations aren't the only way to find something. If the tomb is on the planet and in the general area of the Battle, the Queen could send something to search for it more mundanely. Even if she doesn't really care about petty revenges, she does have an interest in finding the parts of the rod. It's the key to get her empire back.
Those tombs are also going to be strongly... axiomated? (lawful version of hallowed and consecrated + magic circle against chaos within the environs-- just like you would expect from the tomb of a powerful good-aligned hero or outsider), which will make it very difficult for non-lawful creatures-- outsiders especially, to enter it unless they're of, at minimum, quasi-deity status.
Tue, 2011-07-19 21:39
#125
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
In fact, we can be slightly confident that they aren't. Turgalas was said to be one of the oldest tanar'ri, and he was only spawned about a million years ago. You could say that it was artistic license, but I'd doubt someone millions of years old would have been described as spawning a million years ago even granted that.
Which actually gives us a fairly good timeline (if we were to go with that) on when the Obyriths enacted petitioner technology on a mass-production scale.
This means that the Law-Chaos war probably began between 2-4 million years ago, and Rip says that mortal life did not yet exist when it began (except probably the Aboleth) This would make the Multiverse probably bet. 3-10 million years old.
That's about the timeline I've pegged my campaign to too, based on the same datapoint. 10-20 million for me, but the same general range. I figure since you don't have the same process of planetary creation, nor the same process of biological evolution, compressing it down that far doesn't cause much of a problem, while still putting the most distant periods still into the range of "mists of prehistory"-level.
Tue, 2011-08-23 18:29
#126
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I'm toying with the idea that Tharizdun/The Eye also created a Magma archomental as a backup to the main four (just as he created Cryonax), but that this prince has long since been killed. (if you're going to bring up the fact that such seems unlikely due to the complete lack of info or ruined realm, etc. of such a prince, well, I have a good explanation for that below)
This Prince of Paraelemental Evil Magma was the youngest of the six-- younger than even Yan-C-Bin. In personality, he suffered from explosive anger and was a very spiteful individual. Any records that somehow escaped destruction describe him of being envious of both Imix and Bista Pel. However, in reality he was jealous only of Imix-- insanely so, while he wanted Brista Pel as his own personal plaything and slave. His jealousy was over the power and prestige that Imix enjoyed, the fact that, like Cryonax, he has been left out of the Eye's future plans, and also-- jealous over Brista Pel-- he was among the few in the multiverse aware of that relationship, due to his stalker-like behavior towards Bristel Pel, who had dared prior to her fling with Imix to spur the Magma prince's advances.
He, like Chilimba, the Mephit Lord of magma, sided with Law, though he did so only out of obsession for Brista Pel and hatred of Imix.
When he learned of Chilimba's and Ekhak's plot to advance the war, he wanted in. Unlike the two mephit lords however, he did not participate directly in Brista Pel's murder. Instead, he made sure that Cryonax and Yan-C-Bin, who were participating in the same battle, were suitably distracted. It was highly unlikely that either one would lift a finger to save the princess, but it wasn't a chance the plotters could take, no matter how remote.
Unfortunately, he failed to take one thing into consideration-- Imix's spies were present, and witnessed the entire event-- they had even infiltrated all of the fire-dominant armies, including the magma prince's own.
When Imix learned of the mephit lords' and the Magma prince's heinous actions, he was enraged-- never before and never since has Imix ever been so furious.
The Magma lord, in his arrogance, believed that he, unlike his mephit lessers, would withstand Imix's abuse, which after all, would be divided between so many targets. Unfortunately, he never imagined just how truly enraged Imix would be.
Imix, in his fury, slaughtered the Prince of Paraelemental Magma, but at great cost to himself (between the Magma prince, the mephit lords, and everything else on Paraelemental Magma and Smoke, Imix used up most of his power and was greatly weakened, sitting out much of the remaining Law-Chaos war in order to recuperate)
Upon the Magma lord's death, the remaining five Princes of Elemental Evil, along with Ben-Hadar and Sunnis, worked to destroy any evidence that the prince ever existed. Imix did so out of pure vengeance, while Yanny, Cryonax, Ben Hadar, and Sunnis sought to eliminate any chance that servants or cultists could one day resurrect him somehow.
How does this sound, Rip?
Wed, 2011-08-24 14:08
#127
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Divinations aren't the only way to find something. If the tomb is on the planet and in the general area of the Battle, the Queen could send something to search for it more mundanely. Even if she doesn't really care about petty revenges, she does have an interest in finding the parts of the rod. It's the key to get her empire back.
The tomb isn't in the general area of the battle, though.
The Rod of Seven Parts fragments also seem to regularly move between planes. It's possible that they may be attracted to Wind Duke tombs, but they probably haven't remained in them continuously since the time of the war.
Hm... it would make sense to see it like that, and to talk about the origins of the blood war without mentionning the rest of the war, but only if the talkers have only a vague knowledge of the law/chaos war, for it is too much bigger than the blood war to ommit otherwise, even for fiends.
I'm sure the fiends all know about the law-chaos war. They just don't mention it in Hellbound because the concept hadn't been integrated into the planar timeline yet. There's been some retconning happening. There are a lot of important events that weren't mentioned in Hellbound, like the Reckoning in Baator, not because they were all that long ago, but simply because the authors hadn't thought of them yet. I wouldn't consider that timeline to be comprehensive.
The earliest date given in D&D is 200 million years ago (in the D&D Immortal's set, page 39), which is the last date of a collaborative draeden attack. "The only known instances of multiple draedens appearing have occurred when they deliberately gather to attack some Immortal outpost or project. As many as 20 draedens have united this way at least once in the distant past. No event of this type has occurred in over 200 million years." If this is taken as canon (and it need not be, since that edition of D&D was an entirely different game) then I'd put 200 million years ago as the time when the Sleeping Ones went to sleep and the planes started to form around them.
Wed, 2011-08-24 10:57
#128
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I'm toying with the idea that Tharizdun/The Eye also created a Magma archomental as a backup to the main four (just as he created Cryonax), but that this prince has long since been killed. (if you're going to bring up the fact that such seems unlikely due to the complete lack of info or ruined realm, etc. of such a prince, well, I have a good explanation for that below)
I have no problem with the idea of previously unmentioned, now dead archomentals. The planes are infinite, so there's plenty of room for ruined realms. And I wouldn't assume the official info we have is exhaustive. So I don't think it's necessary to establish a deliberate assault on all records regarding the lost magma lord; time and distance may well be enough. But whatever.
He, like Chilimba, the Mephit Lord of magma, sided with Law, though he did so only out of obsession for Brista Pel and hatred of Imix.
Chilimba is supposed to be half mephit and half paraelemental. Maybe he's the halfbreed son of your magma archomental?
Wed, 2011-08-24 15:23
#129
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I'd fit the timeline from Necromancer Games' City of Brass boxed set into the D&D timeline this way:
(Long ago): Sulymon, first of the genies, creates the City of Brass (the Mudawwarah Al Jin), some time before the creation of the mortal races, during the time when the multiverse was still being shaped.
(Long ago): At some point, the City of Brass is brought under the control of the Wind Dukes of Aaqa.
Circa -37,000 DR: Sulymon places Iblis, the first genie he created, on the throne of the City of Brass. Since there's no discontinuity of rule until the gods throw down Iblis, I'd place this after the Battle of Pesh and collapse of the Wind Duke empire.
-36,000 DR: 1,000 years later, Iblis purges the City of Brass of djinn and other dissidents. The marids leave soon after. This might be a good time for the sollux to part ways with the efreet. War begins between the djinn and efreet.
-35,000 DR: The time of creation is done and the gods present their first mortal creations to the genies. Iblis demands the gods make them slaves to geniekind, and for his impudence he is cast down from his throne. The efreeti are cursed and made bestial in appearance (so it makes sense that the sollux, who are not bestial in appearance, are already gone at this point). This might correspond with the war between the genies and the gods mentioned in the Al Qadim setting.
-34,900 DR: Sulymon separates the evil part of himself into a separate being and battles him, finally defeating him. Then he returns to the City of Brass and traps the most evil efreet in bottles. Sulymon places the djinni princess Cirrishade and the efreeti prince Ashur Ban on the throne as the new Sultana and Sultan.
-7800 DR: The djinni lord Calim invades Toril, founding the nation of Calimshan.
-6800 DR: The efreeti lord Memnon invades Toril, founding the nation of Memnonnar near Calimshan.
-6500 DR: Many years pass. Sulymon's evil half slowly reconstitutes himself and takes the form of an efreeti. He gathers forth baatezu allies and armies and conquers many efreeti fortresses, finally conquering the City of Brass itself. Known as the Usurper, he becomes the new Sultan of the efreet and rules until the present day. With the peace brought about by the marriage of Cirrishade and Ashur Ban broken, the djinn and efreet resume war. The Age of Skyfire begins on Toril as Memnon and Calim battle each other for the next 400 years.
Of course, in Tales From the Lamp and subsequent Planescape sources, the sultan of the efreet is called Marrake al-Sidan al-Hariq ben Lazen. If one wishes to use the Necromancer Games background, then this could be the name the Usurper uses.
Wed, 2011-08-24 22:44
#130
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
^^Sounds good.
I don't think it's necessary to establish a deliberate assault on all records regarding the lost magma lord; time and distance may well be enough. But whatever.
The assault on the records also seemed logical to me just looking at the archomentals' personalities. Cryonax is defined as being very cautious, and therefore it makes sense for him to suppress the records. Imix REALLY hated the guy, and aside from intentionally releasing disinformation to sully his reputation (which seems more like Yanny's thing IMO), the best way to get vengeance upon a quasi-deity that's already dead is by removing all evidence and memory of him, so that he completely fades away. I mean, Brista Pel was killed at around the same time, but there seems to be some memory of her among some of Fire's inhabitants.
Considering that the Magma Lord had a far more unpopular personality (prettymuch everyone hated him), I would say that there would be much more memory of him than of the Fire Princess had records not been destroyed and suppressed. He would have been pretty popular among all evil and many neutral Magma Paraelementals as he "kept Chilimba and the mephits in their place", and the plane went on to be ruled by mephits after the Magma Lord's fall.
Chilimba is supposed to be half mephit and half paraelemental. Maybe he's the halfbreed son of your magma archomental?
I considered that possibility. Though considering what I did with Frigidora, I'd much prefer to keep the bit about him being a "higher-order half elemental" (an exceedingly rare creature who gains nearly all the powers and abilities of both parents, yet is far, far stronger than either, and tend to be stronger than the most powerful members of their fleshy parentage-- for instance, Frigidora's power exceeds that of the most powerful noble Qorrashi.) instead. Besides that, if he were the son of an archomental, then it seems likely that he'd find some way to ascend into full-paraelemental form so that he can become a true archomental. (nobody knows what causes a higher-order half elemental to be born, and all attempts by Cryonax over the millenia have all failed. Most elemental natives aware of such creatures simply believe that it is Fate, aka the plane's will, for such a creature to be born.)
Tue, 2011-09-20 18:22
#131
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Alright Rip, I need all the post-Obyrith info you have on Pale Night. So far all I have is the stuff from Fiendish Codex I, but I know there's way more. I'm planning on covering a major section on her, and I need to make sure none of this stuff contradicts. Also, a list of Pale Night's children other than Graz'zt, Luperico, Vulkaric, and Lynkab.
Here are my ideas:
--Pale Night bore the Demon Princes asexually (I always got strong Nyx and Gaea vibes from her, and Nyx bore most of her children asexually. Obyrith seem like a race far more likely to be capable of this than most outsiders) Though many believe that she was "impregnated by the Abyss itself" (this kinda contradicts the idea of some, particularly of Tanar'ri cultists, that she is essentially an avatar of the Abyss-- and thus fate itself)
--Pale night never lifted a finger in defense of her fellow Obyrith, but gave (albeit minor) aid to her children
--The birth of the Tanar'ri lords were as per orders by the Queen of Chaos and otjher superiors-- the goal was to create "ambassadors" if you will, to keep the Tanar'ri hordes in line (the likelihood of driving them insane during the act of bullying them into submission is also less likely. It was assumed that the Tanar'ri lords were more likely to be obeyed or specifically-- would be less fervently opposed by the hordes)
--Pale Night bore her children AFTER successful non-procreative experiments to breed Tanar'ri and Tanar'ri lords (Juiblex being the first successful paragon)
--The birth of Graz'zt suggests a possible treachery by Pale Night-- Graz'zt is the Demon Lord of betrayal, after all, and there's no way he didn't play a major role in the Tanar'ri uprising
--Pale Night's vengeance against the Eladrin may be over the audacity of the intent to destroy her and the loss of many important minions rather than vengeance in the name of her Obyrith kin
--On a similar note, the entire Eladrin alliance with the Obyrith was a trojan horse from the very beginning-- all meant as an information-gathering endeavor for the eventual betrayal. Ben-Hadar joined the side of Chaos in part for this very reason (along with the desire for vengeance against Law and simple personal preference)
Tue, 2011-09-20 22:44
#132
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Alright Rip, I need all the post-Obyrith info you have on Pale Night. So far all I have is the stuff from Fiendish Codex I, but I know there's way more.
There isn't, really. The Fiendish Codex has everything Faces of Evil had. Other than that, there's the Demonomicon articles on Baphomet in Dragon Magazine (both the 3e and 4e ones) and the article on Graz'zt. They don't really add very much. "The Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Graz'zt" in Dragon #360 (the last 3rd edition issue) did provide us with a longer list of Pale Night's offspring, though: Graz'zt, Lupercio, Rhyxali, Zivorgian, and Vucarik.
Looks at it. Okay, there is a bit more information in Dragon #360. Let me edit this accordingly.
Also, a list of Pale Night's children other than Graz'zt, Luperico, Vulkaric, and Lynkab.
Lynkhab isn't stated to being Pale Night's child anywhere. Lynkhab seems to have been born from the essence of lust at the same time as the other primal succubus queens, like Malcanthet and Xinivrae.
--Pale Night bore the Demon Princes asexually (I always got strong Nyx and Gaea vibes from her, and Nyx bore most of her children asexually. Obyrith seem like a race far more likely to be capable of this than most outsiders) Though many believe that she was "impregnated by the Abyss itself" (this kinda contradicts the idea of some, particularly of Tanar'ri cultists, that she is essentially an avatar of the Abyss-- and thus fate itself)
"The Demonomicon of Iggwilv" does suggest that Graz'zt had a father, though it doesn't state for certain who it was. It lists a number of possibilities, including Loki, Nyarlathotep, and Asmodeus. Hellbound: the Blood War suggests Vucarik might be part chain devil. But it's not certain, so Graz'zt might have been an asexual birth, or Pale Night may have been impregnated by the Abyss itself (which I think is explicitly suggested as another possibility).
--The birth of the Tanar'ri lords were as per orders by the Queen of Chaos and otjher superiors-- the goal was to create "ambassadors" if you will, to keep the Tanar'ri hordes in line (the likelihood of driving them insane during the act of bullying them into submission is also less likely. It was assumed that the Tanar'ri lords were more likely to be obeyed or specifically-- would be less fervently opposed by the hordes)
Maybe. It's suggested that Pale Night may have given birth to the entire tanar'ri race, essentially creating them after copulating with a baernaloth. Shemmy wrote a really good story about this somewhere. On the other hand, the Queen of Chaos is said to have personally created many of the earlier tanar'ri lords; Demogorgon for sure, and probably Mishka the Wolf-Spider.
Oh, here is Shemmy's story, if you're interested.
Okay, I looked at the article in Dragon #360, which states that Pale Night "beckoned something to impregnate her" after the Battle of Pesh and the overthrow of the obyriths, while she was dwelling in the same maze she dwells in today. She might actually have waited out the entire war in that maze. So she probably wasn't acting under the Queen of Chaos's orders.
Okay, the complete list of possible fathers in that article is: Loki, Set, Asmodeus, a baernaloth, Nyarlathotep, "a patriarch of a race of immortal warriors from an alternate reality" (a leShay?), or the Abyss itself. It portrays most of these possibilities as dubious, but you might be right that the Abyss was their father.
Then Pale Night "gave birth to countless monsters and demons when she came to term an age later." Most of them quickly died, while very few ascended to the status of demon lords in their own right. The article suggests they may have been the children of many different fathers.
--Pale Night bore her children AFTER successful non-procreative experiments to breed Tanar'ri and Tanar'ri lords (Juiblex being the first successful paragon)
Demogorgon was first, according to "The Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Demogorgon," though Juiblex was surely very early.
--Pale Night's vengeance against the Eladrin may be over the audacity of the intent to destroy her and the loss of many important minions rather than vengeance in the name of her Obyrith kin
I kind of think it was just Pale Night seeing an opportunity to do something incredibly evil and seizing it rather than any particular desire for vengeance.
--On a similar note, the entire Eladrin alliance with the Obyrith was a trojan horse from the very beginning-- all meant as an information-gathering endeavor for the eventual betrayal. Ben-Hadar joined the side of Chaos in part for this very reason (along with the desire for vengeance against Law and simple personal preference)
Quite possibly. We don't know for sure, canonically, that the eladrins ever allied with the obyriths at all. They could have just been waiting in Arborea for a sign of weakness so that they could pounce. I tend to assume they would've been on the obyriths' side in any multiverse-wide battle between Law and Chaos, though, and that the alliance fell apart when the forces of Chaos brought the efreet into their side... which the more 'purist' chaotics saw as a betrayal. But that's just supposition on my part.
While I'm doing this, I'll note that the 4th edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide says that "eons" passed between the recreation of Toril's sun and the beginning of the sarrukh empires. In one of my timelines above (the City of Brass one), I interpreted this as only 2,000 years, but really it can be any amount of time. It could be two million years or two billion years, if you really wanted it to be, and have a classic Darwinian evolution of life from the time when Toril was a frozen iceball until the sarrukh evolve into sentience.
Wed, 2011-09-21 01:21
#133
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
copulating with a baernaloth
Four words you never, ever want to hear used together...
Wed, 2011-09-21 07:09
#134
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
In my campaign i have taken the liberty of creating my own history of the war between chaos & law, it is infact the entire basis for the campaign story line.
My take on is based on the following idea .. My deities can view time as a canvas where all possible timelines are somehow painted on. However omnipotent they are, they are rarely as omnipotent when it comes to time so they have to focus on specific areas on the canvas and take their time.
A god who felt wronged took it upon himself to destroy a group of gods who wronged him. Scheming and plotting being some of his biggest portfolios he was very patient and elaborate. Simple destruction was not good enough for him. He set a huge plan in motion, he wanted to create an artifact so powerful that he could bind 5 other gods, impersonate them with their powers and the like. To avoid any meddling by other forces, entities, deities etc and because he is so utterly locked in doing big things like this with elaborate schemes, he takes alot of personal satisfaction in eleborate schems being successful.
He went about sowing the seeds for a big conflict, a conflict that would involve many different beings, all with the purpose of them creating various parts of this artifact. This conflict was the war between law & chaos, he did this by going both forwards and backwards in time and in different timelines.
In my story, the bloodwar is an offshoot of his eleborate scheme... exactly HOW and WHAT he did I have not fleshed out.
It was inspired by the rod of 7 parts campaign, he did manage to create the artifact and use it, but chaos being chaos ... it did not result exactly as he planned it so now the artifact is scattered throughout the multiverse and in time.
Wed, 2011-09-21 21:00
#135
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Lynkhab isn't stated to being Pale Night's child anywhere. Lynkhab seems to have been born from the essence of lust at the same time as the other primal succubus queens, like Malcanthet and Xinivrae.
Oh, it was Rhyxali I was thinking of, I think (someone I recalled having darkness in their portfolio and being Graz'zt's sister)
Okay, I looked at the article in Dragon #360, which states that Pale Night "beckoned something to impregnate her" after the Battle of Pesh and the overthrow of the obyriths, while she was dwelling in the same maze she dwells in today. She might actually have waited out the entire war in that maze. So she probably wasn't acting under the Queen of Chaos's orders.
I didn't realize that she bore her children that late. Darn. I so liked the idea of Graz'zt playing a major role in the overthrowing of the Obyriths.
Quite possibly. We don't know for sure, canonically, that the eladrins ever allied with the obyriths at all.
I thought I read in a timeline given by you or another boarder that they did (though certainly I didn't notice it in any canonical books) Like you, I assume they sided with chaos out of an inability to reconcile with the oppressive and constricting rules, regulations, and attitudes of the armies of law, which back then they viewed as great an abomination as evil itself. Nonetheless, they shared Law's hatred of the Obyrith.
I'll have to rethink the story I had, though the part about her desire to be the "Queen of Demons" suggests I was on the right track.
Wed, 2011-09-21 21:38
#136
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I thought I read in a timeline given by you or another boarder that they did (though certainly I didn't notice it in any canonical books)
I think I did put that in one of my timelines, though that was just my interpretation. Sorry, I'm trying to get better about that.
Sun, 2011-10-02 19:57
#137
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I think I did put that in one of my timelines, though that was just my interpretation. Sorry, I'm trying to get better about that.
That's alright. I kinda wanted to combine the stuff from yours and my writings together from the start, anyway.
Fri, 2011-11-11 10:13
#138
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Alright, Rip, where are you, man? I need your help with the whole Serpent can of worms. I have your quote from an old topic below, but alone it's not enough to help me. I need to know, how do you think Jaziran and Ahriman/Aeshma (Asmodeus) would fit in with the Protogenoi-- bear in mind that one of the early protogenoi was Ananke, whom together with Chronos (the protogenos, not the Titan Chronus) were the infinity symbol personified-- the ouroboros.
To quote Theoi.com:
Ananke was the Protogena (primeval goddess) of inevitability, compulsion and necessity. She emerged self-formed at the very beginning of time--an incorporeal, serpentine being whose outstretched arms encompassed the breadth of the universe. From the time she first appeared Ananke was entwined in the serpentine coils of her mate, the time-god Khronos. Together they surrounded the primal egg of solid matter in their constricting coils and split it into its constituent parts (earth, heaven and sea) and so brought about the creation of the ordered universe.
This, again, sounds very similar to the World Serpent archetype, and is probably one of the inspirations for the D&D writers who came up with the World Serpent myth-- they probably also borrowed from Hindu and esp. Egyptian mythology, though I am less familiar with their specifics.
My main question is, what is the World Serpent, and how do Jaziran and Asmodeus/Ahriman play into it? It's something I must figure out in order to progress the timeline further, especially in relation to the Protogenoi and scaled gods. (I'm likely to go with a protogenoi origin route with the World Serpent, though I'm not sure whether the World Serpent would descend from such a being or whether it is such a being)
Yes, they did. That's one of the reasons many people don't like the Guide to Hell origin myth. It seemed to come entirely out of left field, messing up the previous ideas (like the yugoloth origin of fiends).
Future designers mostly ignored it or reinterpreted it. The authors of Vecna Reborn and Die, Vecna, Die! certainly weren't thinking of it when they were writing about the Serpent as the personification of magic.
I think it has some merit, but you've got to look at it metaphorically. I think Asmodeus was probably a primal being of Law of some sort, but probably there were more than two. Jazirian is an aspect of the World Serpent archetype, as is the dragon god Io, the bullywug god Ramenos, the yuan-ti god Merrshaulk, and the naga goddess Shekinester (Jazirian is the father of Shekinester's child, the naga god Parrafaire).
There are a few parallel myths that seem to be talking about the same thing in different ways. First is the myth of the "Powers of Creation" who made the Outlands, the Spire, Mechanus, and the mediators of Mechanus according to the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix One. This is vague, and basically just tells us that some primal entities concerned with balance brought order to the planes and banished the gods from the center of the Outlands (presumedly by creating the Spire), creating Mechanus as an alternate place for them to live, and creating the godlike mediators to ensure that they couldn't mess it up too much.
Second is the origin myth in Hellbound: The Blood War, which describes the primal forces of Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil meeting in the unformed Outer Planes, combining and warring with one another to create the present planes. It does not at first personify these forces. Eventually the force of raw Evil spawned the baernaloths, while the other forces spawned other progenitor races that have gone unnamed. The baernaloths created the yugoloths and manipulated the yugoloth General of Gehenna into inadvertently creating the other fiends.
Honorable mention to Faces of Evil, which says that baatezu can be either created from petitioners or they can, rarely, be spawned directly from the mathematics of Baator.
Third is the Twin Serpents described in Guide to Hell and alluded to in the 3e Manual of the Planes and Book of Vile Darkness. It says the Twin Serpents organized the planes into their present ring-shape, decreed the Rule of Threes and the Center of All premises, and then fought each other over the ideals of good and evil. Ahriman/Asmodeus was banished to Baator while Jazirian hid herself in Mount Celestia. The first baatezu, this book claims, were born from the blood of fallen Asmodeus.
Fourth is the story of Asmodeus and the Gods of Law described in the Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. It says the Gods of Law brought order to the planes by warring against the forces of Chaos. This is mirrored by one of the myths in the Fiendish Codex I, which describes how the Gods of Law brought the first shape and form to primal Chaos, and the pollution left behind by their meddling became the Abyss, which filled with demonic creatures called obyriths who wanted only vengeance. Asmodeus was the warleader created by the Gods of Law, who began descending into brutality and evil while fighting the demons of the Abyss. Eventually he convinced his masters to let him have Baator as a place to punish those who fell from the ideals of Law. There was a climactic battle when the Gods of Law realized he had cheated them, and he ended up in the Serpent's Trench as in Guide to Hell, except he's no longer envisioned as a serpent.
Putting these sources together, we must conclude that the "Gods of Law," the Twin Serpents, and the Powers of Creation likely all describe the same beings. They were probably not at first personified - what Guide to Hell describes as the Twin Serpents was likely the force of Law itself, only vaguely intelligent, interacting with raw Chaos in the only way it could, by organizing it. Asmodeus was probably one of the early progenitors of Law, the equivalent of the baernaloths spawned from Evil. Jazirian might have been another one of them, though this interferes with the World Serpent monomyth. Asmodeus may or may not have looked like a serpent in those days - it hardly matters, and I'm sure he can take on multiple forms. Let's say he did.
The baernaloths, at some point, began interfering with the still-forming planes of Law and Chaos, tainting parts of those planes with evil and installing some of the taint of Chaos and Law into their own creations, the yugoloths, and in the case of those baernaloths known as the Demented taking that taint even into themselves. They inspired jealousy and rage in some of the primal creatures of the other planes and played a part in the creation of the obyriths, either making them directly by casting the chaotic taint within the yugoloths into Chaos, where it evolved into the obyriths on its own, or by corrupting some of the progenitors of Chaos so that they evolved into obyriths, or - most likely - a combination of those two methods. The obyriths went on to create the tanar'ri, a creation the baernaloths probably also interfered with, but that's another story. The first of the obyriths was Obox-ob, while the Queen of Chaos may have been a corrupted being of Limbo before becoming an obyrith.
Meanwhile, in the plane that would one day be known as Mechanus (but which was probably not remotely mechanical at the time), the servants of the primal beings of Law begin exploring other planes and encounter the obyriths. Some of the obyriths are off exploring at the same time, and they encounter the primal beings of Law (as well as a race of the Inner Planes known as the Wind Dukes of Aaqa, and probably the pre-baatezu Elder Baatorians). War starts between Law and Chaos, and I'm certain the baernaloths had something to do with that, as well. Both races encounter the yugoloths, who agree to act as mercenaries in the war.
Asmodeus, the leader of the war, is now thoroughly corrupted by evil (that is, the baernaloths) if he hadn't been long before the war. The episode chronicled in Hellbound: The Blood War as the Intervention of the Celestials is likely the same as the episode chronicled in Guide to Hell as the war between Jazirian and Ahriman, and chronicled in the Fiendish Codex II as the Gods of Law hurling Asmodeus into Baator.
Yes, I'd say that Asmodeus was a being of power enough - he'd become the planar lord of Baator by this point, the same job he has now, the same job Primus has in Mechanus - to distort the plane when he fell, creating the huge chasms and cracks in Nessus (and even the lower eight layers of the plane, if you want to go that far), and that when they say that baatezu - the first pit fiends - were born from his blood, that's the same as them being born from the mathematics of the plane itself as Faces of Evil says sometimes happens. Asmodeus, in many ways, is Baator now, although he wasn't the first inhabitant of it. The beings known as the Ancient Baatorians dwelled there before he ever did, although except for their young, the nupperibos, they'd mostly vanished or gone underground by the time Asmodeus arrived.
The ancient Baatorians were probably born from the larvae cast off by the General of Gehenna, which were formed from the lawful taint of the yugoloth race. The creation of the baatezu by Asmodeus and his minions (fallen servants of Law) was probably manipulated by the yugoloths and their creators as well, although the first pit fiends (who may not have looked anything like modern pit fiends - maybe they were serpentine in form, like their master possibly was) were probably more "pure" in a sense. Asmodeus might well have contracted out some of the process of creation to those more experienced in it, such as the baernaloths. I need to find Shemmy's response to my story of ancient Baator, since I think he named the baernaloth responsible there.
There are many ways Glasya, Asmodeus's daughter, might have been created other than ordinary sexual reproduction. I speculated that the Hag Countess of Malbolge might have made her with samples of the flesh of Asmodeus and Bensozia. Another possibility is that Glasya is a daughter of one of Asmodeus's aspects or avatars, rather than the daughter of his true form.
Wed, 2011-11-16 00:05
#139
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Misc note: I came up with a name for the dead Magma archomental (Vesvolch), the name of the artifact created by the archomentals and Istisha and Akadi that brought about the ice age (Winter's Resurrection), and an additional section (plus name of artifact) on the artifact created when Chilimba used his Quasielemental Ash-empowered fork to deal the death blow to Brista Pel (Quereim, the Traitor's Fork)
There is a section in the timeline post on Vesvolch, Winter's Resurrection, and Qaereim.
Come on, man, I need that info on The Serpent. Please? ;_;
Wed, 2011-11-16 19:00
#140
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Alright, Rip, where are you, man?
I've been around, but checking Planewalker a little less often lately. Sorry.
My main question is, what is the World Serpent, and how do Jaziran and Asmodeus/Ahriman play into it?
At its most fundamental, the World Serpent is simply a serpent believed to surround or support the world in some sense.
In the Guide to Hell myth, Jazirian and Ahriman were two serpentine greater deities, each with its tail in the other's mouth in a dual form of the classic uroboros pattern, who created between them the Unity of Rings theme and the Rule of Three. They quarreled over which plane would be the center of all, so they split, Ahriman falling broken into Baator and Jazirian ascending to the fifth mount of Celestia. As such, they broadly fit the archetype.
I think the idea (from Carl Sargent's Monster Mythology) is that before there were any gods, there were archetypes, mythic patterns that the gods model themselves on, mostly unwillingly. A god may deliberately follow an archetype for the additional belief energy this brings, but probably everyone in the Outer Planes can't help but be caught up in the archetypal patterns that the planes are based on.
Alternately, the archetypes developed slowly, over time. As gods rose and fell over the eons, certain patterns became ingrained in the cosmos, becoming stable shapes more lasting and profound than the gods themselves.
The World Serpent is one of those archetypes. Other serpentine deities like Ananke and Ophion and the Ogdoad follow the same archetypical pattern as Shekinester, Jazirian, Asmodeus and others.
In Serpent Kingdoms for the Forgotten Realms setting, the World Serpent is simply an ancient, powerful deity worshiped by the serpentine Creator Race, the sarrukh. As the sarrukh culture and the creations of the sarrukh fragmented, so did the god, becoming a variety of lesser serpentine gods, including Shekinester, Jazirian, and Merrshaulk. But that doesn't explain manifestations of the World Serpent in other myth cycles, from Jörmungandr in Norse myth to the Rainbow Serpent in Australian aboriginal myth to the world-snake of the Fon people in Africa.
Wed, 2011-11-16 19:23
#141
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Ah. So there simply isn't much data on it, I guess. Pity. Thanks for the response, I've been waiting so long for it.
Unfortunately, at this time, even I am not sure how to go about explaining it. I guess I'll have to focus on other areas for now, though certainly my ideas on the Protogenoi could be easily encorporated into the Serpent myth.
In my workings on the Protogenoi, there were two major wars that affected them-- the Draeden war and the Protogenomachy (I think that is what you would call it), which was the war between the Protogenoi and the Titans.
In both wars, the Protogenoi incurred heavy losses. Many were killed outright, while many others were fragmented into multiple lesser powers. Many others were slain or near slain, and all possible divine essence and portfolios were absorbed by the Titans and other powers of that era. Finally, some of the Protogenoi over time slowly transformed into bonafide gods in order to gain greater benefit from worship and belief. Pelor, for example, is a product of both absorption and transformation; originally he was the Protogenos Liga, who was neutral-aligned and had a twin sister.
As for Uranos's disgust with his children, the whole "they were deformed and had lots of eyes and crap" will not be the reason why he imprisoned them-- the reason will be that they were repulsive creatures of undulating, writhing, stinking flesh.
Fri, 2011-11-18 21:28
#142
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Wait, I just thought of something earlier today, Rip.
Perhaps the Scaled Ones are the only ones with a myth about the World Serpent fracturing into different deities and aspects because most of the other mythologies are human derived, which means that they're much, much younger.
Also, maybe you're right about the "different versions of the same story" thing-- perhaps in several cases we are dealing with different appelations of the same deity, such as what you see on Krynn and with several Forgotten Realms gods by region (though in the latter case these would be different aspects)
The question would then become: which ones are actually separate beings and which ones are different names for the same being?
Also, how do we explain Aeshma/Asmodeus battling in the Abyss vs. the twin serpent? Was the Aeshma that descended into the abyss merely an avatar of The Serpent, or did it simply take the form of a celestial? (based on what I recall about Asmodeus vs Ahriman, I'm guessing he was an avatar)
Sat, 2011-11-19 19:56
#143
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I think if you want to use the Jazirian and Ahriman "Twin Serpents" myth from Guide to Hell in concert with the concept of Protogenoi, they should collectively be the Protegenoi of Law, a primal manifestation of order as the Ogdoad are perhaps the primal manifestations of Chaos. I wouldn't worry too much about connecting them directly to other "world serpent" deities; perhaps other, later gods followed the same archetypal form that the Protogenoi established first, but there doesn't have to be any connection more intimate than that.
Asmodeus might be some kind of avatar of Ahriman, or a powerful servant of Ahriman and Jazirian in the age before they fought, battling the obyriths at the Twin Serpents' directive. He might have signed his compact with both Serpents and founded Baator before Ahriman fell. I like the idea that he keeps any connection he might have to Ahriman a secret, even from other archdevils. If they're the same entity, he doesn't let on.
Sun, 2011-11-20 00:14
#144
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
I like the idea that he keeps any connection he might have to Ahriman a secret, even from other archdevils. If they're the same entity, he doesn't let on.
Well, yeah, that's what I was going with.
Also, I wasn't going to make Jazirian and Ahriman protogenoi-- I was going to make them a split-off from the Protogenoi, possibly Ananke. I do like the idea of Ananke and Chronus siding with law, though (Chronos the protogenos, not Chronus the Titan... or was Chronus the protogenos?)
As for the direct connections between Protogenoi and later gods, I created that primarily to explain the discrepencies between say-- the Hesiod and later works that combine several distinct deities into one or vice versa (as well as similar discrepencies in Egyptian myth), though I'm using it for fictitious deities as well. The Draeden war and Protogenomachy played a major role in such connections.
Wed, 2011-11-23 16:04
#145
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Another thing I've strongly considered (but I need you input to know if it contradicts canon) is that the Abyss was originally a single layer-- the Plane of Infinite Portals (minus the portals). Back then, it had a far more varied landscape, with abyssian oceans, forests, arctic regions, etc. In fact, more than half the plane originally consisted of aquatic environments (mirroring prime life at the time, which was mostly aquatic, and in fact the first Obyriths were aquatic, which I realize contradicts canon which states the opposite-- I disagree with it.) As time passed, there were disputes, and chunks of the Plane of Infinite Portals were sundered loose and sank into the depths below, leaving a gaping hole in their wake. This hole would soon after be filled with mountainous land and eventually only a chute where the land once sat remains (this chute being a portal to that layer). Of course, that is not the only way in which layers were created-- the abyssal lords could use belief to form a layer out of nothing. Also, when the layers fall, they sometimes defy the laws of physics, physically settling below other layers, as if phasing straight through them.
I've also toyed with the idea of a powerful artifact, essentially the personal journal of Aeshma/Asmodeus from his crusades in the Abyss. The accounts range from interesting (the bit above about the Plane of Infinite Portals) to uber-disturbing (a verminous parasitic obyrith that gestates within the body of a celestial, slowly converting its good *and lawful, if it has any* essence to evil, before emerging a la chestburster from whatever orifice or wound it entered *Asmodeus specifies that the parasite, in its first free-form hatchling stage, will seek to enter the host through the nearest available orifice. If no orifices are available, due usually to armor, then it will find a soft spot and "create" an orifice. Oh, yeah, Asmodeus's best friend as well as lover were killed by these things, and both died right before his eyes. Once it enters the host, the parasite sends a network of filaments through the victim's body, and its body is sort of a fleshy or gummy mass- essentially the parasite resembles a gigantic neuron initially. Some of the filaments penetrate through the skin and create a fibrous mass that fastens the victim to the floor. The victims are moved to "brood pits", caverns unhallowed with special curses to make curative magic impossible to cast. Attempts to move the victim, even if they can be freed from the floor, can result in the parasite bursting forth prematurely. If encountered outside of a brood pit, Dispel Evil or Remove Disease can be cast, but fail to exterminate the parasite immediately unless it was very recently implanted. Instead, it attempts to escape the spell by rupturing forth from the victim prematurely before dying.
Insidiously, Pazuzu gave Asmodeus's best friend a medicine that would restore consciousness and ambulation, and then cut him free from the floor of the brood pit, sending him to Asmodeus. Asmodeus attempted a Remove Disease spell on his friend, which caused the parasite to rupture forth from the healed wound in his abdomen where it entered. There was a splattering of gore, and oh yeah, the combination physical and spiritual process is agonizing for the victim, and once the parasite's parasitic stage is complete, there is nothing left of the victim's soul. Asmodeus found his old lover in one of the brood pits and was unable to save her before she essentially "gave birth" to the parasite-- as per the orifice it entered. Oh, yeah, that took place in a massive brood pit, with around 500 parasitized celestials. Pazuzu was usually nearby, often appearing simply to taunt him. After these events, Asmodeus began to use evil methods to capture and destroy obyrith souls.*
I also have Asmodeus making a quote at one point that through genesis via the consumption of aasimon and archon souls, this species of obyrith "is robbing the powers-- worse still, robbing Mother Celestia of her life-blood", and stating that this is one of the highest forms of blasphemy (regarding the "Mother Celestia" part, recall my earlier posts about Planism-- essentially Gaiaism plus fatalism for the outsiders and elementals-- Asmodeus is basically asserting that, since all celestials born on Mt Celestia are products of the plane itself-- be they a product of petitioner evolution, sexual reproduction, or spontaneous birth from the plane itself, these parasitic obyriths are thus devouring Mt. Celestia's very essence.)
Ooh, I just got another positively wicked idea. The obyrith parasite, once it reaches maturity and bursts forth from its host, can mimic the voice of said host. Imagine Asmodeus's horror as one of these monstrosities bursts forth from his beloved in a most unholy way, springs to attack him, and then, as Asmodeus raises his shining blade to annihilate the abomination, it pleads for mercy in his beloved's voice, using the same words she uses. Oh, man that's the ultimate mind-****. (BTW, when one of the immature parasites earlier emerged from his best friend, the gore splattered all over Asmodeus, including some on his face. Oh, and both incidents, including the uncovering of the huge brood pit of 500 celestials that included his beloved, took place during his longest campaign in the Abyss-- one which ran uninterrupted for 66 years-- 66 years in the Abyss isn't healthy for any celestial, esp. a lawful one. All the while, Pazuzu watches, and occasionally makes an appearance in a difficult-to-reach area to taunt Asmodeus.)
Wed, 2011-11-23 17:22
#146
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
Another thing I've strongly considered (but I need you input to know if it contradicts canon) is that the Abyss was originally a single layer
When I first read The Book of Fiends: Armies of the Abyss, I thought it sounded like it was saying that it was only after the qlippoths were overthrown by the eladrins that they created deeper Abyssal layers, but when I asked Erik Mona about it he denied that this was his intention.
There are definitely references in canon to deeper layers of the Abyss before the Battle of Pesh, but I do assume that if you go back in history far enough, it's just one layer. Then if you go back further, all the Lower Planes were just one layer and one plane, so (going by the Hellbound timeline, and by something Monte Cook once said about a proposed Planescape time travel adventure that never got written) in the beginning there were only five Outer Planes (Good, Evil, Neutrality, Chaos, and Law), and they only divided much later.
As time passed, there were disputes, and chunks of the Plane of Infinite Portals were sundered loose and sank into the depths below, leaving a gaping hole in their wake.
I think layers of the Abyss can split from one another as Abyssal lords grow powerful enough to reshape them. When they start out they only rule part of a layer, but as they grow in might without ruling the whole, their domains grow more powerful too, until they split off from the original layer. And this happens again and again over the eons, and that's where the layers of the Abyss came from.
Then sometimes, when a layer has gone without a lord for too long and they grow old and weak, stronger layers can cannibalize them, devouring them and making one, more varied layer from what was once two.
As you say, there are other possible origins for Abyssal layers. Some of them might even breed sexually, birthing new realities from some appropriate orifice after a demonic avatar of the layer seeded it.
There was a splattering of gore, and oh yeah, the combination physical and spiritual process is agonizing for the victim, and once the parasite's parasitic stage is complete, there is nothing left of the victim's soul. Asmodeus found his old lover in one of the brood pits and was unable to save her before she essentially "gave birth" to the parasite-- as per the orifice it entered.
Gross!
Wed, 2011-11-23 19:18
#147
Re: So when exactly was the Law/Chaos war?
There are definitely references in canon to deeper layers of the Abyss before the Battle of Pesh, but I do assume that if you go back in history far enough, it's just one layer.
Ah, good.
Gross!
Yeah, that's one of my specialties. (I can actually get a LOT more graphic and detailed than that, but I limit the extent of the explicitness, goriness, and graphicness of my posts on the Planewalker forums)
Oh, yeah, that bigass brood pit-- Asmodeus was left with no choice but to SLAY all of his fellow celestials in that chamber, as there was simply no other way to save their souls (or at least what remained of them. Well, technically he COULD exorcize the hosts, but that'd still kill them, and he didn't have enough power at that point to exorcize all 480 victims-- that was the remainder left by the time he was able to act.) His fellow celestial paragons chastised him heavily for this (as well as ACTUAL acts of evil he committed in his crusade against the Obyriths), which frustrated him greatly since he felt that they didn't fully understand their enemies, plus some of the paragons who admonished him the harshest had never even stepped foot in the Abyss (When Asmodeus returned from his 66 year crusade and participated in the trial of Chilimba and Ekhak *the charges would be dismissed due to lack of evidence*, an argument with one such paragon resulted in Asmodeus chastising him, stating that said paragon finds it so easy to judge him from his "comfortable ivory tower")
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^^Most of those creatures would be classified as Elder Evils, and yes, they'd be more or less similar to oozes, or say-- aboleths and flumphs. The tentacled form of Tharizdun probably is indeed the appelation used to attract worshippers from the Permian-analogue era, which is when religion would have been discovered (esp. going by the timeline I created, where the two races to discover religion were creations of the aboleth who gave them physical qualities which would ultimately prove to be beyond their control, in response to ecological pressures from an aridifying world.)
While Tharizdun may have reason to create something in order to deceive others, I think the god of entropy would probably be incapable of doing so directly, no matter how destructive its servitors turned out to be. Likely he would have to use an intermediary to do the actual work of creation and corrupt the resulting creations. So I think that first the original Elder Elemental Eye would have created the archomentals, and second Tharizdun would have "created" them as princes of evil by corrupting them with his power. It's conceivable, though, that by subsuming another god (or primordial) Tharizdun could have acquired some creative powers from that god, at least until it was completely digested.
That's the thing though, I don't believe the claim that the princes were 'corrupted' in any way, especially since there is no evidence that Cryonax has ever had any contact with the Elder Eye (it appears that Cryonax was created merely as a backup in case Olhydra and/or Yanny got killed, because his involvement isn't necessary in order to break Tharizdun free of his prison-- that's the only conclusion I can come to for why Cryonax was created when he is absolutely unnecessary for freeing the Eye. Dragon 347 also states that Cryonax is "separate" from the other four and considered a 'lesser being' by them, which suggests to me that he's basically been cast aside. Since bitterness is certainly an abstract quality of Paraelemental Ice, I find it likely that Cryonax refuses to aid the Elder Eye in escaping its prison, feeling abandoned himself *if the Elder Eye hasn't involved him in the plot to break him free, then that would mean, at least under Cryonax's and everyone else's mind, that Cryonax would likewise not be privelaged to the "rewards" promised to the other four. He still claims to be sired by the Elder Eye for bragging rights of course, but refuses to help it.) That said, I'd likely go with the acquisition of the creative powers before it could be fully subsumed. Likewise, the princes are not "corrupt" in any shape or form. They're evil aligned, but there is nothing aberrant/alien/exogenous about them as far as being elementals.